Poll:Dansby or Boldin

[cardsfanmd]

While what you have said is technically correct, wasn't this the offseason (between 2006 and 2007 seasons) that Boldin's contract was re-done? Coupled with having a new head coach on board, there was no way the Cardinals were going to re-do both starting WR's contracts in the same offseason.

Then Graves shouldn't have told him they would.

 

[SECTION 11]

Defense and running game over receivers, any day of the week.

 

[lauraw]

Boldin is said by his teammates to be the heart and soul of the team ; to me that's invaluable.

 

[TigToad]

I was never casting blame for their desires/decisions. I don't fault them if they want to chase the money. I do fault Boldin for wanting the security and the early restructure. Dansby, I cannot knock because he's done things professionally.

The NFL is a business. You can't forget that.

Both players would be very happy to stay as Cardinals if the price is right. Can't blame them for wanting to get what they feel they are worth. NFL careers are short. I think most players in their prime desire the biggest contract they can land.

With that said you can't pay everyone what they want in the salary cap era. I would retain Dansby out of need even though I'm a huge fan of Boldin's. With Boldin we have other players who could step in right away if he departs. That's not the same situation with Dansby.

 

[TigToad]

First off, I agree with most of the arguments here and am not going to re-state my side when its been said pretty well by a couple others already.

1. I don't think we need to make the flashy day-1 free agent moves. I'd rather build the way its been, depth and keeping as much talent as we can.

2. I agree completely, Fitz was a good deal, even if he's getting a massive payday.

5. Honestly, I never wanted Suggs. I wanted Byron Leftwich. Either way, I didn't hate the trade at the time it was made... I hated the trade when I saw who we picked with those two first round picks.

Either way, we can argue every decision Graves has ever made, that wasn't my desire. I realize there are a lot of guys on here who hate Graves... and a lot of others who typically side with ownership. What I argue, and will continue to argue, is that overall, Graves' decisions and negotiating has not hurt this team. We have continued to get better year after year, we are keeping more and more of our key players, we are overpaying for the important guys we get to keep less and less. In sports, a lot of bad decisions get made... we make our share.. but we're not making more than our share as we used to be. I'm always stunned by the sheer amount of hate he gets. That was my point.

On the main topic... I still don't overpay Dansby or Boldin. I don't think we have any chance of retaining Dansby after this year, unless he falls on his face in free agency this coming off season. Boldin, I think we have a chance to retain because he has 2 years on his deal, I believe we will make a go at re-signing him after this season and I believe he wants his payday badly enough he'll let us re-sign him a year early.

Good post and thoughts. Thanks, but.............

1) We miss out on the first wave of FA every year. At some point in time I think that we, as Card fans, need to come to the conclusion that we just aren't ever going to be the Redskins. We don't have that kind of owner, or philosophy. And it doesn't help that everytime we do go out and try to make a splash, it always turns around and bites us in the butt (see James, Edgerin for example). Faneca probably wasn't ever in the Cards anyway.

2) I highly doubt anyone in the league feels that we overpaid for Fitz.

3) I don't know about this one. None of us were in the room when these conversations occurred. We've heard a lot of "he said, she said" stuff with characters like Drew involved that makes it difficult to believe either side. But I have a hard time in disagreeing with TT's assertion that Graves made a good deal for the Cardinals when he re-did Q's contract.

4) I can say that. I was one of the happiest guys on the board when that unmotivated sad sack of a guard left the team, and I still am. This is one of the best moves Graves made, not his worst. (but I understand your side of the argument, I just wholeheartedly disagree).

5) I like this point. You could very well be correct in this.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

JTS

 

[Cody]

i bet if breaston was the #2 reciever last year his numbers wouldn't be as good.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

5. Honestly, I never wanted Suggs. I wanted Byron Leftwich. Either way, I didn't hate the trade at the time it was made... I hated the trade when I saw who we picked with those two first round picks.

i wanted Leftwich too . Whe he was passed over, that's probably as mad as i have ever been as a Cards fan. Hearing Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace's named called back to back only made it worse , if that was possible.

 

[cardpa]

Neither has shown me a strong desire to be a Cardinal long term. I really like both players and I love the way Boldin plays. But, Boldin has been burning his bridges a bit more, too.

I'd be thrilled to resign either, but I won't shed too many tears over either's departure. I believe if they go, the money would get used to bring/re-sign more people. I abstain for now, but reserve the right to vote later.

Totally agree

 

[cardsfanmd]

Either way, we can argue every decision Graves has ever made, that wasn't my desire. I realize there are a lot of guys on here who hate Graves... and a lot of others who typically side with ownership. What I argue, and will continue to argue, is that overall, Graves' decisions and negotiating has not hurt this team. We have continued to get better year after year, we are keeping more and more of our key players, we are overpaying for the important guys we get to keep less and less. In sports, a lot of bad decisions get made... we make our share.. but we're not making more than our share as we used to be. I'm always stunned by the sheer amount of hate he gets. That was my point.

You do realize that Graves has been the GM much longer than the last two years dont you?? Saying that we've been getting better every year with him is absolute bull.

The people who say they support Graves because they support ownership are just nuts, plain and simple. I cant think of anything that Bill Sr has ever done that was exceptionally good for the team. His own kids are embarrassed by how he has run the organization. Bill Sr brought Graves in and the two were a perfect pair of do-nothings until Mike B came aboard, got a new stadium, overruled Graves and hired Whiz. That caused the turnaround, not anything or anyone else. We never won more than 7 games with RG prior to Whiz.

I cannot accept the crap that we have the most players on our team that were drafted by the club either. Players only average about 4 years in the league. Our SB team featured players that DG and Whiz drafted, not Graves.

Graves has been here running the draft since '97 and running everything since '02. Dont let 2 good years under Whiz cloud your judgement. Scouting/drafting/personnel was supposed to be Graves' forte. Did you like how his buddy Dave McGinnis did as HC??? Look what he did in the draft prior to Denny Green and Whiz, who had last say in the those departments during their tenures:

1st round picks are supposed to justify their draft status about 50% of the time. You tell me which of Graves' first rounders did that:

'97. Wadsworth
'98. Boston
'99. Shelton
'00. Thomas Jones
'01. Leonard Davis
'02. Wendell Bryant
'03. Calvin pace
'03. Bryant Johnson

Out of the remainder of his 56 picks the only guys he took who were worth their pick were Boldin, Hayes, Wells, Vanden Bosch, Corey Chavous and Mike Pittman. Wow, 6 picks out of 64 turned out to be worthy of their selection, great GM we have.

Graves is not good at his job, and to support him does nothing but show one's unwillingness to look at the facts and judge them honestly. I do not hate RG, but I refuse to ignore that he's incapable of doing his job up to the standards we as fans should be able to expect. I cannot wait for Mike B to have full control of the team.

rant over now

 

[TigToad]

Yes, I do realize he's been in charge much longer. I am also not a Bill Bidwill supporter. I blame a lot of the things that this organization was forced into doing on his money management.

However, the way Cardinals do business changed when Michael started making more and more of the decisions. From everything I've ever read or heard, I don't think Graves had a lot of the decision making power during many of his earlier drafts.

As for that list of first rounders, its not a great list, but many of those decisions worked out. Wadsworth was one most people wanted at the time. Boston was a good Cardinal and didn't bust until we let him go. (AND- who doesn't like a story about a guy not wantint to be in hit in the chest during practice because his nipple rings hurt). Thomas Jones got onto the wrong side of this team, but is still in the NFL and playing acceptably well. Leonard Davis made a pro-bowl with the Cowboys, but it was Green's decision to not let him play guard which I kept him so mediocre here. Judging from the venom I see from some, Pace must have been better than I ever thought he was. Its not an impressive list of names, but its not a whose who of first round busts, either. Graves was also not in the position to make the big money decisions, even as late as 2003. He was often handcuffed in what positions he could pick until Green got here. I have a couple friends who worked closely with the organization in the late 90s and early 2000s, I don't think seriously that money decisions in that period were ever going to lead us to the top quality players.

IMO, we have been getting better, under Graves, since he was allowed to start signing people with contracts that the rest of the NFL uses. Until Green got here, this team was woefully short on NFL talent. While it look a better coach than Green to get the team turned around, the talent started coming in with Green. If you want to call that I see that talent growth as improvement and think my opinion is absolute bull, then thats what you think of my opinion. But, yes, I do realize how this team has been run, and by whom.

You do realize that Graves has been the GM much longer than the last two years dont you?? Saying that we've been getting better ever year with him is absolute bull.

1st round picks are supposed to justify their draft status about 50% of the time. You tell me which of Graves' first rounders did that:

'97. Wadsworth
'98. Boston
'99. Shelton
'00. Thomas Jones
'01. Leonard Davis
'02. Wendell Bryant
'03. Calvin pace
'03. Bryant Johnson

Out of the remainder of his 56 picks the only guys he took who were worth their pick were Boldin, Hayes, Wells, Vanden Bosch, Corey Chavous and Mike Pittman. Wow, 6 picks out of 64 turned out to be worthy of their selection, great GM we have.

Graves is not good at his job, and to support him does nothing but show one's unwillingness to look at the facts and judge them honestly. I do not hate RG, but I refuse to ignore that he's incapable of doing his job up to the standards we as fans should be able to expect. I cannot wait for Mike B to have full control of the team.

rant over now

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

i met Graves in St.Louis last year. He's a super nice guy. I just don't think he's all that great of a GM. How many GM's would go into the off season with 40+mill in cap space and come away with a team that:
1.couldn't get a deal done with their best defensive player.
2.Not improve the overall roster-he maintained the roster but, with 40 mill, you would like to see some key additions. McFadden would have been a nice upgrade if Hood was kept around and made the nickel back. As it stands now, it is only a marginal upgrade. Let Arrington go,picked up Wright.Let T. Smith go,picked up Kreider. Let Hodel go, picked up Leach.Those are all insignificant, treading water moves. To me, that's a GM who didn't do a whole lot with the space available. In fact,you could argue that the team is now less talented because of letting Antonio Smith go with no significant DL brought in.So, basically, with 40 mill in cap room, Graves traded A. Smith, James, and Rod Hood for McFadden. I realize it wasn't a great year free agency-wise as whole but there could have been some roster improvement. It's nice to keep your own but it's also nice to add to it. The Cards are very fortunate for the rest of the NFL's stupidity and aloowed Beanie Wells to fall into our lap. Otherwise, the running game would be a huge question mark.

 

[40yearfan]

Sorry, but a good bit of the stuff your are considering factual there is just dead wrong.

Are you saying he got his facts wrong?

Edit: Never mind. I just read the rest of the thread. I do however disagree with you, but everything has been said that I would have said and there is no reason to repeat it.

 

[cardsfanmd]

As for that list of first rounders, its not a great list, but many of those decisions worked out.

no

Wadsworth was one most people wanted at the time.

So what? How does that make it better? That is probably the worst argument I have ever heard.

Boston was a good Cardinal and didn't bust until we let him go. (AND- who doesn't like a story about a guy not wantint to be in hit in the chest during practice because his nipple rings hurt).

David Boston was an arrogant cokehead prick and that's why he didn't remain on the team. I would venture to say that most people dont think like you and Graves and want more than 2 good seasons out of an 8th overall pick. Pac Man was good for a few years too, does that validate his draft status?

Thomas Jones got onto the wrong side of this team, but is still in the NFL and playing acceptably well.

Do you really mean this stuff? Jones was the 7th overall pick in the draft and gained like 1,200yds over 3 years for us.

Leonard Davis made a pro-bowl with the Cowboys, but it was Green's decision to not let him play guard which I kept him so mediocre here.

When was the last time you saw a guard selected #2 overall??????? Oh yeah, NEVER because they aren't worth that high of a selection. You are really reaching here, but in reality you're just making yourself look silly here man.

Judging from the venom I see from some, Pace must have been better than I ever thought he was.

I am only continuing to respond to this ridiculousness because it seems as though you really need to hear this stuff.

Calvin Pace was epitome of an amatuer selection. He didn't fit our scheme and it was blatently obvious to everyone but Graves and the scouting staff that he assembled. When we changed schemes CP instantly became a borderline pro bowl player. I bet he really felt like smacking RG right across the face.

I do realize how this team has been run, and by whom.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[40yearfan]

Calvin Pace was epitome of an amatuer selection. He didn't fit our scheme and it was blatently obvious to everyone but Graves and the scouting staff that he assembled. When we changed schemes CP instantly became a borderline pro bowl player. I bet he really felt like smacking RG right across the face.



I respectfully disagree.

So now you are blaming Graves for playing Pace out of position? You do realize that the coaches make those decisions or do you think Graves does that also. We could just blame him for the Iraq War and the economy going bad also. Why just stop at football?

 

[cardsfanmd]

So now you are blaming Graves for playing Pace out of position? You do realize that the coaches make those decisions or do you think Graves does that also. We could just blame him for the Iraq War and the economy going bad also. Why just stop at football?

C'mon 40, you gotta think before you type boss. Are you telling me that Graves didn't know the system that the team employed when he drafted Pace? If not that he's worse than any of us thought. What am I missing here. We played a 4-3 and yet Turtlehead felt it neccessary to add an obvious 3-4 prospect to the bunch so that he could get overpowered and trampled as a DE.

Would someone please contest me with something that could be considered a rational thought.

 

[AZ Native]

OK, back to the original post. Q

 

[TigToad]

Alright, I grant you all of the early crap draft picks. It was a foolish arena to argue in. Of them all, Leonard Davis and Thomas Jones (who really should have been even better) are the only ones who've had successful NFL careers and neither with us. I was not trying to argue that these were great picks, but it would have been hard to predict, for any GM, the bustness of Wadsworth. Boston almost worked out, but his attitude ruined his career.

However, the way you argue is so emotionally charged it is really hard for me to have this discussion at all. You don't need to bother to respond to me anymore, I have read your posts on this topic for a long time now, and I usually have the sense to stay out of it.

I respectfully disagree with you on the point of Graves. I am not going to praise him as anything other than average, but my opinion stands that he is not as bad as people like you make him out to be. I understand the history of this team and the way Bill Bidwill expected it to be run. Many of his draft decisions were dictated by position, most of his early contract failures were due to structural limitations that were placed upon how they needed to be worked. Now, a very valid argument here is that the organization is at fault for the way it insisted on doing business. It was a badly run machine that was going to be broken no matter who was driving. If you look at the team from the Michael Bidwill era on, (which I really count as about the time Green was hired), I do not fault Graves' work. I don't mind the speed with which he does contracts... and he has not given out that many contracts that were bad for the Cardinals, nor do I see a lot of players we lost out on because of that speed. Anyway, now I'm stirring up new arguements when I do not intend to.

I'm going to be without computer access for a couple days, so I probably won't respond again anyway. I realize we're going to disagree on this one, as I've read your arguments against Graves before. I would appreciate it if you stopped to try to see both sides of it one of these days rather than lambasting things as idiotic when you often skipped over the intention of the message.

However, I admit that the Cardinals drafts for that good 7 year period were pretty much entirely awful.

no



So what? How does that make it better? That is probably the worst argument I have ever heard.



David Boston was an arrogant cokehead prick and that's why he didn't remain on the team. I would venture to say that most people dont think like you and Graves and want more than 2 good seasons out of an 8th overall pick. Pac Man was good for a few years too, does that validate his draft status?



Do you really mean this stuff? Jones was the 7th overall pick in the draft and gained like 1,200yds over 3 years for us.



When was the last time you saw a guard selected #2 overall??????? Oh yeah, NEVER because they aren't worth that high of a selection. You are really reaching here, but in reality you're just making yourself look silly here man.



I am only continuing to respond to this ridiculousness because it seems as though you really need to hear this stuff.

Calvin Pace was epitome of an amatuer selection. He didn't fit our scheme and it was blatently obvious to everyone but Graves and the scouting staff that he assembled. When we changed schemes CP instantly became a borderline pro bowl player. I bet he really felt like smacking RG right across the face.



I respectfully disagree.

 

[Black Jesus]

glad to see the results flipped. Wish this was a public poll.

 

[Black Jesus]

1st round picks are supposed to justify their draft status about 50% of the time. You tell me which of Graves' first rounders did that:

'97. Wadsworth
'98. Boston
'99. Shelton
'00. Thomas Jones
'01. Leonard Davis
'02. Wendell Bryant
'03. Calvin pace
'03. Bryant Johnson

I think Boston, Thomas, Davis, and Pace were successful picks- maybe not for us, while Wadsworth, Shelton, Bryant, and Johnson sucked.

 

[Perfectionist]

Defense and running game over receivers, any day of the week.

With the direction Whis is taking this team, in the long run, I would take Dansby.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

glad to see the results flipped. Wish this was a public poll.

i checked tke box for it to be public.don't know why it isn't.

 

[cardsfanmd]

With the direction Whis is taking this team, in the long run, I would take Dansby.

i checked tke box for it to be public.don't know why it isn't.

It's public on my computer.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Alright, I grant you all of the early crap draft picks. It was a foolish arena to argue in. Of them all, Leonard Davis and Thomas Jones (who really should have been even better) are the only ones who've had successful NFL careers and neither with us. I was not trying to argue that these were great picks, but it would have been hard to predict, for any GM, the bustness of Wadsworth. Boston almost worked out, but his attitude ruined his career.

However, the way you argue is so emotionally charged it is really hard for me to have this discussion at all. You don't need to bother to respond to me anymore, I have read your posts on this topic for a long time now, and I usually have the sense to stay out of it.

I respectfully disagree with you on the point of Graves. I am not going to praise him as anything other than average, but my opinion stands that he is not as bad as people like you make him out to be. I understand the history of this team and the way Bill Bidwill expected it to be run. Many of his draft decisions were dictated by position, most of his early contract failures were due to structural limitations that were placed upon how they needed to be worked. Now, a very valid argument here is that the organization is at fault for the way it insisted on doing business. It was a badly run machine that was going to be broken no matter who was driving. If you look at the team from the Michael Bidwill era on, (which I really count as about the time Green was hired), I do not fault Graves' work. I don't mind the speed with which he does contracts... and he has not given out that many contracts that were bad for the Cardinals, nor do I see a lot of players we lost out on because of that speed. Anyway, now I'm stirring up new arguements when I do not intend to.

I'm going to be without computer access for a couple days, so I probably won't respond again anyway. I realize we're going to disagree on this one, as I've read your arguments against Graves before. I would appreciate it if you stopped to try to see both sides of it one of these days rather than lambasting things as idiotic when you often skipped over the intention of the message.

However, I admit that the Cardinals drafts for that good 7 year period were pretty much entirely awful.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if Graves gets extended to know for sure. I say Mike B brings in someone new and I'm will willing to bet all my A$FN bucks on it.

 

[AZ Native]

It's public on my computer.

Same here. Just click on the number of votes.

 

[JeffGollin]

False Choice...

We get to keep both players for an extra year anyway. And, by the end of next season, the situation will change - One may outplay the other, at least one of our young WR's or LB's may step up or there might be (God forbid) injuries.

Bottom Line - El Bridgo Crosso.