Poor coaching or dumb players?

[DutchmanAZ]

Loved this line from Jaws...

ESPN's Ron Jaworski said last week, as far as the Cardinals' struggles are concerned, that "it's either poor coaching or dumb players."




More here:

http://arizonasports.com/64/1465392/Hubris-is-becoming-Ken-Whisenhunts-downfall

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Loved this line from Jaws...

ESPN's Ron Jaworski said last week, as far as the Cardinals' struggles are concerned, that "it's either poor coaching or dumb players."




More here:

http://arizonasports.com/64/1465392/Hubris-is-becoming-Ken-Whisenhunts-downfall

Well we have basically turned over an entire roster and it is the same problems we have always had so I am going to go with coaching.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

from watching the team and listening to the post-game comments, i vote . . . BOTH. resoundingly so.

 

[CHAPTER 7]

from watching the team and listening to the post-game comments, i vote . . . BOTH. resoundingly so.

I agree. Both which makes it so painful to watch this team...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Well we have basically turned over an entire roster and it is the same problems we have always had so I am going to go with coaching.

This...

 

[82CardsGrad]

from watching the team and listening to the post-game comments, i vote . . . BOTH. resoundingly so.

No... it's the coaching. Players like Dockett, Campbell, Wilson, Fitz & Sendlein didn't all of a sudden become dumb. Their poor play is soley attributable to coaching. Coaching that continues to be incapable of implementing systems that would provide a chance for success.


Washington, Acho, O'Brien, Williams, Peterson, Doucet, Housler/King, Colledge, Beanie (I would say Brown as he did once play well enough to help our team reach the Super Bowl - however, in reality, he's always been Dumb...) - are all players who are talented enough to be able to contribute far more than they have thus far... Yet, again - the coaching continues to make poor decisions, poor shemes, poor play-calling...

The team continues to make stupid play after stupid play... we continue to rank at the top of the league in Penalties...

Sorry - that's all coaching as far as I'm concerned...

 

[Dayman]

Dumb players are often a product of poor coaching. It's hard to learn when nobody is teaching you.

 

[Buckybird]

No... it's the coaching. Players like Dockett, Campbell, Wilson, Fitz & Sendlein didn't all of a sudden become dumb. Their poor play is soley attributable to coaching. Coaching that continues to be incapable of implementing systems that would provide a chance for success.


Washington, Acho, O'Brien, Williams, Peterson, Doucet, Housler/King, Colledge, Beanie (I would say Brown as he did once play well enough to help our team reach the Super Bowl - however, in reality, he's always been Dumb...) - are all players who are talented enough to be able to contribute far more than they have thus far... Yet, again - the coaching continues to make poor decisions, poor shemes, poor play-calling...

The team continues to make stupid play after stupid play... we continue to rank at the top of the league in Penalties...

Sorry - that's all coaching as far as I'm concerned...

no way its all coaching...no way.

 

[thephoenixson28]

Coaches coach, Players play. When he coached us to the Superbowl no one had a issue. Don't give me that Kurt Warner bull. Cuz if it wasn't for whiz, Warner never has a chance.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Coaches coach, Players play. When he coached us to the Superbowl no one had a issue. Don't give me that Kurt Warner bull. Cuz if it wasn't for whiz, Warner never has a chance.

Hindsight: Without Warner, Whis never has a chance. It goes both ways, but every other QB aside from Warner and Ben, have struggled significantly under Whis. His "system" only works for a select few, which is why he won't have a long career as a HC.

 

[Folster]

Every team has strengths and weaknesses. Our glaring weaknesses are pass protection and lack of a pass rush. It's easy to say that we don't have the players, but that fact will not change until next season when we can add new pieces. Our coaches need to play the hand they dealt themselves. If our tackles suck then put an extra TE or FB out there to give some help. If our linebackers can't generate a pass rush, then change the scheme so players like Dockette and Campbell can. If Kolb can excel in a westcoast system, then implement a westcoast style system. The name of the game is winning. Nobody cares how you do it.

 

[Jetstream Green]

It is coaching. Our players are no different than players on other teams and all come from the same selection of colleges across the nation- IT IS THE COACHING

 

[Buckybird]

It is coaching. Our players are no different than players on other teams and all come from the same selection of colleges across the nation- IT IS THE COACHING

Really? So you're saying that Bellicheat, Reid, Tomlin or McCarthy would have this team winning 5 or 6 games by now? I respect your opinion Jetstream but here's why I disagree.

1)Did Coaching make Kolb throw a pick on a potential GW drive in Seattle?

2)Did coaching lead to the defense suddenly falling asleep in the last 2 mins against NY?

3)Did coaching lead to another 4th Qtr 2min defensive meltdown in Washington? I guess coaching made Stucky fumble too

4)Did coaching forget to play defense in the 2nd 1/2 of the Ravens game?

5)Has Coaching has made Levi & Keith suck as OT's?

6)How about all the blown coverages in our secondaty this year? Coaching?

7)Is coaching making Kolb bail in the pocket at the first sign of pressure? I'm sure that coaches haven't tried to teach Kolb not to do it.

8)How about all the dropped passes?

Trust me I'm not saying Wiz & his staff don't share some blame, but IMO everyone involved in football operations on Hardy Dr. has some blame. Players, coaching, etc. If Kolb or someone on D makes a few plays here & there this team would probably have won 3-4 games already & all this talk would be moot...but I also understand its not.

IMO this team isn't as talented as we all think that it is. Bad QB play, bad OT's & below average pass rushers lead to bad football. This team has more issues than just coaching.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Really? So you're saying that Bellicheat, Reid, Tomlin or McCarthy would have this team winning 5 or 6 games by now? I respect your opinion Jetstream but here's why I disagree.

1)Did Coaching make Kolb throw a pick on a potential GW drive in Seattle?

Coaching put us in the position to have to win that game on that drive, when we are far more talented than Seattle and the game should not have come down to that...

2)Did coaching lead to the defense suddenly falling asleep in the last 2 mins against NY?

Sure. Well-coached teams don't fall asleep late in games...

3)Did coaching lead to another 4th Qtr 2min defensive meltdown in Washington? I guess coaching made Stucky fumble too

Again, well coached teams don't have those late game meltdowns nearly as often as the Cards do... and again, certainly not against less talented teams!

4)Did coaching forget to play defense in the 2nd 1/2 of the Ravens game?

See my comments above... additionally, we scored 3 points in the 2nd half! Ya think the offensive guru that is Whiz could have schemed a bit better in the 2nd half???

5)Has Coaching has made Levi & Keith suck as OT's?

Has coaching improved these two even slightly?? Grimm SUCKS!! That just can't be denied!!

6)How about all the blown coverages in our secondaty this year? Coaching?

How 'bout every team in the NFL has blown coverages in every game. It happens. However, Horton and Whiz are trying to install a Steeler defense without Steeler talent!! That is all coaching!

7)Is coaching making Kolb bail in the pocket at the first sign of pressure? I'm sure that coaches haven't tried to teach Kolb not to do it.

Is it not the coaches that continue to put Kolb in compromised positions? Leaving our tackles one on one with great edge rushers... no RB chips. No TE help... Is it too much to ask that our coaches make adjustments?

8)How about all the dropped passes?

No more than just about any other team...

IMO this team isn't as talented as we all think that it is. Bad QB play, bad OT's & below average pass rushers lead to bad football. This team has more issues than just coaching.

I agree... however, the coaching and the GM are by far the biggest issues...

 

[desertdawg]

Really? So you're saying that Bellicheat, Reid, Tomlin or McCarthy would have this team winning 5 or 6 games by now? I respect your opinion Jetstream but here's why I disagree.

1)Did Coaching make Kolb throw a pick on a potential GW drive in Seattle? Spreading them thin and then having him toss it so he doesn't get one of those sacks everyone hates so much...

2)Did coaching lead to the defense suddenly falling asleep in the last 2 mins against NY? We go cushion/prevent, then the other team dices us up like a Ginsu knives commercial

3)Did coaching lead to another 4th Qtr 2min defensive meltdown in Washington? I guess coaching made Stucky fumble too That was a bad fumble, bad luck, tempo was working in our favor, I'll agree with this one

4)Did coaching forget to play defense in the 2nd 1/2 of the Ravens game? Ravens offensive scheme was adjusted at halftime, we couldn't stop Boldin at in the second half. When it started we should have doulbled him, Jefferson had no bussiness on him. Coaching/cushion/prevent/ a bad call as well at the end

5)Has Coaching has made Levi & Keith suck as OT's? Trick question

6)How about all the blown coverages in our secondaty this year? Coaching? New system, injuries, rookies, no pass rush (which you dully noted and I concur), so not all on coaching

7)Is coaching making Kolb bail in the pocket at the first sign of pressure? I'm sure that coaches haven't tried to teach Kolb not to do it. You know the idea of a pocket, the line collapses for a sec to creat the pocket. Unfortunately this doesn't happen most of the times, so when it is successful Kolb is already gone.

8)How about all the dropped passes? Roberts? That one TE in one of the games?

Trust me I'm not saying Wiz & his staff don't share some blame, but IMO everyone involved in football operations on Hardy Dr. has some blame. Players, coaching, etc. If Kolb or someone on D makes a few plays here & there this team would probably have won 3-4 games already & all this talk would be moot...but I also understand its not.

IMO this team isn't as talented as we all think that it is. Bad QB play, bad OT's & below average pass rushers lead to bad football. This team has more issues than just coaching.

I'm with you on some points, but the team has shown they can do it, it seems to me that we go back to our old tendencies whether we are winning or losing. We spread them thin with no one to protect as far as talent goes while the defense is clued in on it. I'm down to give the defense some more time, even though we give up 30+ points in a lot of our games. With a pass rush and time I can see something developing on that side of the ball. On offense it is like that movie "Groundhogs Day" Over and over

 

[desertdawg]

If i was hired to be a defensive coord and was facing the Cardinals this week I would just go back and look at the film when Warner had bad games. There were teams that had our number back then, we got beat like dogs in some games, even with Warner playing and switching calls because we were already in shotgun. Not much you can audible to there with the play clock winding down. Happens to every QB here, D sees the spread and are ready for it. Broadcasting our old ass plays gets our QB hurt and on the hotseat. Runningbacks go unhappy, defense is back on the field, same old Cards, same old Whiz.
I am a koolaid chugging muthasucka by the way.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Hindsight: Without Warner, Whis never has a chance. It goes both ways, but every other QB aside from Warner and Ben, have struggled significantly under Whis. His "system" only works for a select few, which is why he won't have a long career as a HC.

Other than Kolb, who the jury is still out on, what other QB has had any talent and made any imprint in the NFL whatsoever? Or are you saying the "system" failed Leinart, St.Pierre, Hall, Anderson, Skelton, and Bartell? I look at it this way, he's had 2 legit NFL talents at QB and both times he went to the Super Bowl with them.

 

[Duckjake]

Other than Kolb, who the jury is still out on, what other QB has had any talent and made any imprint in the NFL whatsoever? Or are you saying the "system" failed Leinart, St.Pierre, Hall, Anderson, Skelton, and Bartell? I look at it this way, he's had 2 legit NFL talents at QB and both times he went to the Super Bowl with them.

However, these guys weren't just poor as you would expect they've all been horrible. Surely guys who played as much football as they have could complete more than 50% of their passes.

BenR's completion % dropped every year under CKW. 66.4%, 62.7%, 59.7% and the Steelers have been back to the SB twice since Whisenhunt left.

Another problem is that our WRs are seldom open. I watch other teams and they have guys open within 2 seconds of the snap. Our guys not so much.

I still wish there was somewhere I could find out more detail about what the Cardinals offense is trying to do because it just doesn't look like it has any rhyme or reason to it.

 

[AZCB34]

FWIW, coaching always...ALWAYS...is responsible for putting together coherent game plans that put their players in the best possible position to win games. The players must execute that game plan. Given the outcomes, I seriously question whether this coaching staff is putting guys in the best position to succeed because it just isnt likely this team is that bad that the players alone appear incompetent.

 

[52brandon]

Other than Kolb, who the jury is still out on, what other QB has had any talent and made any imprint in the NFL whatsoever? Or are you saying the "system" failed Leinart, St.Pierre, Hall, Anderson, Skelton, and Bartell? I look at it this way, he's had 2 legit NFL talents at QB and both times he went to the Super Bowl with them.

Harbaugh and Smith? Smith is hardly a top-tier QB. Hell, week 1 I laughed at them for not going for Orton, but the coach made it work.


I think the coaches, the players, and the fans are to blame on this one. When you're calling for jobs a few weeks into a rebuilding season, when the call gets loud enough, and you get what you want, and no established coach accepts this ******** challenge (Cowher, Shottenheimer), then where do we go? No where. For years.

This is the ONLY head coach here to take our team to a Superbowl, to a NFC (or NFL if you wanna go pre-superbowl days) Championship game since 1948 I believe. Whiz wasn't even ALIVE then, hell his parents probably hadn't even met.

We have a brand new QB, groomed for a different system. A brand new D coordinator and entirely new D scheme, with 2 rookie CBs and our legit FS injured (I know it's Jefferson's 2nd year, but undrafted, never played last year, I still look at him as a rookie), our SS is better suited as a LB in this defense and is playing injured. Our Tackles are the worst in the league. For probably decades you'd have a hard time finding a team with such a bad total Tackle performance (probably never could, as I believe they didn't start keeping stats on the line until fairly recently).

we aren't even halfway through this season. Give the team a little time to come together. You don't just throw a turkey and stuffing onto a plate and Thanksgiving dinner is served, it takes time to prepare it. JMO of course

 

[52brandon]

FWIW, coaching always...ALWAYS...is responsible for putting together coherent game plans that put their players in the best possible position to win games. The players must execute that game plan. Given the outcomes, I seriously question whether this coaching staff is putting guys in the best position to succeed because it just isnt likely this team is that bad that the players alone appear incompetent.

I think on D it's Horton playing a simple scheme with the players. The other teams adjust on offense and we can't adjust on D to stop em because the only players that know the system well enough to do that are too old and slow. Which comes down to it being a combination of the 2. Horton's D has put us in position to win many games though. Our O hasn't been able to put a drive together from a kickoff all year I think. Blown blocking assignments, just dropped passes. Hell, I saw Fitz drop a pass or 2. Nobody looks in sync, couple that with our terrible tackles and that's where our O is now

 

[Bodha]

Its 90% coaches.


the players arent dumb, they are either:

Very smart: Larry, DWash, Acho, Adub, most of the Vets, etc.
Very young and inexperienced: Dan, PP and AJ, OBS
Old: Joey, also Adub, Haggans
or terribly unskilled: Oline

+ horrible QB doesnt help

 

[52brandon]

Its 90% coaches.


the players arent dumb, they are either:

Very smart: Larry, DWash, Acho, Adub, most of the Vets, etc.
Very young and inexperienced: Dan, PP and AJ, OBS
Old: Joey, also Adub, Haggans
or terribly unskilled: Oline

+ horrible QB doesnt help

you left out important factors while you listed almost every D player, they're playing a whole new scheme that I think every player interviewed has said they're having a hard time getting the hang of. You also left out that we have a legit run threat with Wells, but ZERO WR help for Fitz

 

[Bodha]

you left out important factors while you listed almost every D player, they're playing a whole new scheme that I think every player interviewed has said they're having a hard time getting the hang of. You also left out that we have a legit run threat with Wells, but ZERO WR help for Fitz

I was skimmin' over the obvious bits. I could point out the Cards dont have access to the Mud Dogs 'tacklin fuel' either.

There is a ridiculously long list of problems with this team. We cant name them all.

 

[D-Dogg]

from watching the team and listening to the post-game comments, i vote . . . BOTH. resoundingly so.

Agreed.

I vacillate from game to game - it seems the only reason we've either been IN the games or WON the one we did, was because of smart/huge plays by players. I can't point to ANY game where we've out-coached the other team.

In fact, I can look at several times we've been completely out-schemed, out-coached, and out-adjusted, and many we've out-cuted our damn selves.

That said, so many times we've made STUPID FREAKING plays. Kolb can't understand stepping up in the pocket. Wilson will leave his position and let guys run free when he is supposed to be the over cover. The Oline is terrible, and they can't block...but then coaches somehow don't NOTICE THIS? They allow Levi Brown to island tan against Suggs?

Every time I think it is the players, I see a brainfart of epic proportion by the coaches. Every time I think it is the coaches, Kolb dances an Irish jig the one time Levi protects and Larry is wide open. It is maddening.

I tend to come down on the side of coaching being the issue, since we are down a backup 1B RB, starting corner, missing our FS, our SS playing with half a bicep and brain, and old folks at the LB spots (of course, that comes down on coaches/talent evaluators in the first place) and yet we are still competitive against pretty good teams.