Post Steeers' Game: Roster Thoughts

[Mitch]

Mitch, great read as always. And I agree with you about Togafau. Seems to play hard, but is just not big enough or good enough. As for the O-Line, I watched the game and then also watched a tape of the game. I thought that #67, Johnson, played the best of all our draft choices. You didn't mention him. Was it because you didn't like his play? Can Vallejo be put on the PUP list and brought in after the sixth game? Reserve LT looks like a big need.

You're right, Garth. I should have lauded Johnson. He was solid. I do think he's a guard, however, not a RT.

I also forgot to mention Leonard Pope's TD saving tackle on the BSP interception, which made me think this guy should play more on STs.

Joe cleared up the PUP issue this week...the PUP is only for players who haven't been able to practice or play in the pre-season. They should change the rule to include guys who are hurt in pre-season as Vallejo was.

If cardfan is right, the team will keep Vallejo and hope he's ready to play early in the season.

 

[binkar]

Binkar...the guy hadn't taken a snap in a game in a whole year. Doesn't he deserve just a little slack? Last year in the pre-season games he played well. Let's see how he plays this week.

Mitch...I am not saying the guy is horrible and that his career is shot thanks to one bad preseason game. But come on man, hold the guy accountable he played terrible. Regardless of what way you try to spin it he was awful. Did he get much help? No. Did he help himself? Not at all. The "BSP can do no wrong" thing just gets old. I don't mind that you like him, but when he has a bad game blaming it on coaches, other players, or the other teams is silly. I have nothing against BSP. I hope he comes back this week and plays incredible, don't we want every Cardinal player to? But you can't run from the fact that he didn't play well against the Steelers.

 

[Totally_Red]

Levi Jones

I've been on the 'sign Levi Jones' bandwagon for some time. I just don't know if he's amenable to signing a veteran minimum deal at this point because the Cardinals don't seem to have much cap space. If Oliver Ross sees the field in a game that means something the Cardinals are in deep doo-doo.

 

[LittleDavis]

But, I do respect your opinions and always have. As for opinions being objective there is a fine line there, isn't there?

Yes sir.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch...I am not saying the guy is horrible and that his career is shot thanks to one bad preseason game. But come on man, hold the guy accountable he played terrible. Regardless of what way you try to spin it he was awful. Did he get much help? No. Did he help himself? Not at all. The "BSP can do no wrong" thing just gets old. I don't mind that you like him, but when he has a bad game blaming it on coaches, other players, or the other teams is silly. I have nothing against BSP. I hope he comes back this week and plays incredible, don't we want every Cardinal player to? But you can't run from the fact that he didn't play well against the Steelers.

BSP did not play well versus Pittsburgh, nor did the 2nd team offense when he was in the game. I am not hiding from that. Does he deserve to be denigrated for it the way he has been on this board since then? No. Does he deserve all the blame? No. Whiz said it best: "he didn't get much help."

 

[Buckybird]

Mitch, do you think Wiz will plug Brown or Davis in with the starting defense this preseason to see if they can contribute when the games count? I mean just let them show their pass rushing skills because we need it.

 

[joeshmo]

RB (3): 34-Hightower; 26-Wells; 36-Stephens-Howling.

Jason Wright needed to take better advantage of his playing time, and did not. He was merely average at best. The kid who stood outplayed him was LaRod Stephens-Howling, and quite franky, it may be one of the coaches toughest decisions as to whether to keep Wright or LSH. While LSH has a little tiny hitch in his gitty-up, he's got the gitty-up that Wright doesn't...which is why, once LSH gets comfortable, he could fill the role vacated by J.J. Arrington, as the speed receiver/draw play back. Whiz likes speedy backs and always has. Wright is a far better blocker, but if Whiz wants a blocker in a 3rd down situation he can go with Dan Kreider and I have a sense that Tim Hightower will be a much improved blocker this year having learned from Edge last year.

Wright was easily the best blocking RB in the game, and what was not shown his receiving skill set, which he is much better then Hightower or Wells at this point in their careers. They barely showed their RB passing game in this preseason game. Heck they barely showed their RB's al together with a total of like 18 touches combined. Which I thought was odd, hopefully that number goes up when Beanie comes back. We alredy know what we got from our top 4 WR's, we need to truly test our RB's and TE's from here on out. Anyways there are 3 reasons why blocking FB's like Kreider as your pass blocking RB is a bad idea idea and 99% of the league doesn't do it. One they are zero rushing threat, Two they zero receiving threat out of the back field, both giving the defense less to worry and Three and the biggest reason why they are two slow to slide and protect where ever the blitz is coming from. Its why teams prefer their RB's to take on this task, and why we always here how important this aspect is when scouting a RB.

I am in agreement on Vallejo. I think the time frame given is a very optimistic one, his injury is like a shoulder popping out of place once it happens once it will happen again, its a certainty. So to counteract that when and how long from now that will happen again his rehab needs to be a long and tedious process IMO. If we put him out there to early we will ruin this kids career. Save him for the 2010 LT battle IMO.

I also think there seems to be a lot of excuse making for BSP right now from a lot of people. Yes he should be given another couple more chances, everyone has a bad night, but call it like it is, he was just plain old bad. Palko was playing against the same schemes, against the same scrubs, not given the opportunity to throw to Urban and Breaston like BSP had, and had just as horrible pass blocking for himself. Yet he made something out of the same exact conditions that BSP did not. BSP starred down his WR's, he starred at the rushing coming at him and immediately tucked the ball and went into the fettle position and froze, which is not the quick release or scramble ability we saw from him last preseason under similar circumstances, which I found to be very odd because that wasnt what BSP has shown in preseason games or the live practices before. I can only assume his head just wasn't in the game, he was trying to be something he is not, or the coaches were asking him to be something he is not, and he is not a pocket passer. Which is why I am willing to give him a few more opportunities.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch, do you think Wiz will plug Brown or Davis in with the starting defense this preseason to see if they can contribute when the games count? I mean just let them show their pass rushing skills because we need it.

Yes, Bucky, I think BD will put them in rush packages in passing situations, just as he does with Berry. What BD needs to figure out is how to keep fresh rushers in the game and what the rotation will be.

 

[Duckjake]

Yet he made something out of the same exact conditions that BSP did not. BSP starred down his WR's, he starred at the rushing coming at him and immediately tucked the ball and went into the fettle position and froze, which is not the quick release or scramble ability we saw from him last preseason under similar circumstances, which I found to be very odd because that wasnt what BSP has shown in preseason games or the live practices before. I can only assume his head just wasn't in the game, he was trying to be something he is not, or the coaches were asking him to be something he is not, and he is not a pocket passer. Which is why I am willing to give him a few more opportunities.

Not exactly the kind of thing you would expect from a guy who is starting his 7th season in the NFL. It would be easier to give him a "pass" if he were a rookie or 2nd year player.

 

[Mitch]

Wright was easily the best blocking RB in the game, and what was not shown his receiving skill set, which he is much better then Hightower or Wells at this point in their careers. They barely showed their RB passing game in this preseason game. Heck they barely showed their RB's al together with a total of like 18 touches combined. Which I thought was odd, hopefully that number goes up when Beanie comes back. We alredy know what we got from our top 4 WR's, we need to truly test our RB's and TE's from here on out. Anyways there are 3 reasons why blocking FB's like Kreider as your pass blocking RB is a bad idea idea and 99% of the league doesn't do it. One they are zero rushing threat, Two they zero receiving threat out of the back field, both giving the defense less to worry and Three and the biggest reason why they are two slow to slide and protect where ever the blitz is coming from. Its why teams prefer their RB's to take on this task, and why we always here how important this aspect is when scouting a RB.

I am in agreement on Vallejo. I think the time frame given is a very optimistic one, his injury is like a shoulder popping out of place once it happens once it will happen again, its a certainty. So to counteract that when and how long from now that will happen again his rehab needs to be a long and tedious process IMO. If we put him out there to early we will ruin this kids career. Save him for the 2010 LT battle IMO.

I also think there seems to be a lot of excuse making for BSP right now from a lot of people. Yes he should be given another couple more chances, everyone has a bad night, but call it like it is, he was just plain old bad. Palko was playing against the same schemes, against the same scrubs, not given the opportunity to throw to Urban and Breaston like BSP had, and had just as horrible pass blocking for himself. Yet he made something out of the same exact conditions that BSP did not. BSP starred down his WR's, he starred at the rushing coming at him and immediately tucked the ball and went into the fettle position and froze, which is not the quick release or scramble ability we saw from him last preseason under similar circumstances, which I found to be very odd because that wasnt what BSP has shown in preseason games or the live practices before. I can only assume his head just wasn't in the game, he was trying to be something he is not, or the coaches were asking him to be something he is not, and he is not a pocket passer. Which is why I am willing to give him a few more opportunities.

Most teams don't have 3 1,000 yard WRs to throw to, Joe. Plus, Kreider should be able to catch and run with a dump pass if need be. And, I also mentioned that Hightower's blocking will be improved this year, having learned from Edge last year.

All this said, it's most likely Wright makes the roster and LSH gets waived with the hope of adding him to the PS. After the first game though, it was tough not to think LSH could help this team in Arrington's role.

I think Wright will have a very good game either this week or next.

I am not necessarily making excuses for BSP. One play where he scrambled to his left the way Palko later did, he missed a wide open Lance Long, which is pass opne would expect BSP to make. He was clearly flustered by the rush and his own mistakes and sometimes that's when things snowball a little.

The play where you criticize him for staring at the rush and taking the sack...Ziggy Hood was unblocked and had a straight line at him. At least he didn't fumble the ball.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

QB (3): 13-Warner; 7-Leinart; 2-St. Pierre.

When Whiz said St. Pierre "didn't get much help," he was right on the money. When the Cardinals took over late in the third quarter, on first and ten, St. Pierre made a nice throw to LaRod Stephens-Howling for a 5 yard gain, alas, which was nullified by Oliver Ross' holding penalty. Sure, St. Pierre's subsequent interception was ill-advised, no question. But, Jerheme Urban did nothing to sell the route (and it's hard to tell what route Urban was running) and then Urban stood in cement and did not work back to the bal, thus allowing the Steeler CB to jump the route.

I am not sure if any NFL QB would have had much of a chance with Ross' and the 2nd team o-line's shabby play. How about the play where Ziggy Hood blew right through Ross and Elton Brown for an untouched straight line sack on St. Pierre?

For those of you who think the #2 QB battle, promoted by Whiz, is silly or a farce, you really don't know Ken Whisenhunt. And if you think this game sealed the deal for Leinart, you are jumping to a pre-mature conclusion.

I love ya Mitch but you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this topic.

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6. Now it's on to the Oakland game and Leinart is back starting. The initial plan was to have him and all the starters play into the third quarter...only, Leinart plays about as poorly as a QB can play, tossing up three ill-advised interceptions.

Whiz looks understandably perturbed on the sidelines...and yanks Leinart after the third interception...Warner comes in moves the team briefly on the first drive but the drive fizzles, the Cards lead 3-0 at halftime, and after Warner's first two drives of trhe second half--which featured an inspired running attack--the score is 17-0 Cardinals.

7. After the game, Whiz is attributing a couple of Leinart's interceptions to receivers being in the wrong place...which smacks more like a pitch to sell 50 acres of swampland in the Everglades.

 

[Catfish]

Welcome back Mitch---I have been waiting to read your comments after you had a chance to view the game. Hope your trip went well. I agree that we will have a much better view of where Matty and BSP stack up against each other AFTER the San DIego game. I truly hope what we saw in Pitt was a fluke. I also love the signing of Fowler. He is strong, smart, though not real big, when he gets moved by a big NT, he seems to be able to re-set and anchor quickly enough to stop penetration by the D. I believe we will come to REALLY appreciate his presence dufing this upcoming season, and that he completes our search for an answer to the old O-line addage that the line is ANCHORED by its center. While we are not big there, I believe we have become deep enough now at the center position with smart, tough, disciplined people that we have that elusive anchor to build our line around. Thanks to RG and Whiz for finding and signing him.

I am amazed at the detail that you, Cardan, thesmel, Mulli, and some of the others on this board possess. I try to watch intently, but NEVER get that kind of detail in my observations. You guys are phenominal, and very much appreciated. About the best I can go by is sometimes having a feel for what I just saw, or why it happened, and (that feel) is getting to be a better and better indicator as I have aged, but you guys still floor me with your commentary. I love it, and I too love this board Mulli. Keep it coming guys and gals.

 

[D-Dogg]

I don't want to see Beanie Wells in a return role, no thanks. For an all-world talent saddled with a knack for getting dinged up, the very worst spot for him to be in on return duties. That's like walking into a Hell's Angels' bar and saying "which one of you vespa riding women wants their asses kicked tonight?"

I agree with you on Wright though, I thought he was particularly underwhelming when running the ball, even though he was a solid blocker. He looked to me like a FB in a RBs body. If LSH can improve his game, and learn very quickly to attack the hole and THEN shift after getting through the initial holes, he might beat out Wright.

 

[Carddan]

Back-up Offensive Performances

This is just my opinion, the way I saw it

The players which were #2 on the depth chart for the offense were easy to identify.
QB- Leinart, WRs- Breaston and Urban, RB- Wright, (3rd Down Back- LSH) TEs- Pope, Byrd (in single TE sets it was Pope) FB- Castille. RT- H. Johnson, RG- Keith, C- Claxton, LG- E. Brown, LT- Ross.

It will be interesting to see what changes there are to this group against the Chargers.

Leinart played well. He sailed a couple passes early but settled in effectively.
BSP had a bad night. It really wasn’t as bad as it looked, but it was not good.

Wright was acceptable and made a couple nice blocks protecting the QB. He did miss his block on the 4th down pass to Pope, Leinart was hurried and threw high.

LSH showed some flash. Coach used the words “dynamic runner”. One time he tripped over BSP trying to pick up the blitz, missed his block and BSP was sacked. The next time he picked up a blitzing LB he met him hard, good effort.

I didn’t see anything from Castille to threaten Kreider for #1 yet, but nothing negative either.

Our wide outs are good. Urban was blocking well downfield but could have run his route better on the INT. Breaston is a 1000 yd receiver. Lance Long looked really good. Garvin is not a receiver, at least not yet. Sean Morey can catch.

TEs- Both Pope and Byrd made and dropped a good pass. They also both seemed to make their blocks.

H. Johnson and Keith held their side of the line well both in pass protection and run blocking. Johnson especially stood out and made a tackle in the open field after an interception.

Claxton did well except for getting pushed straight back leading to a BSP sack.

I thought Elton Brown played well and Ross less so. The holding penalty against Ross was our worst penalty of the game.

As far as players deeper than #2 that might move up:
I look for Fowler to move into the #2 spot at center eventually. I didn’t catch enough of Canfield to see where he will fit in. I wonder if Vallejo is slotted to be the #2 LT when healthy. I’ll be watching to see if Becht moves up the depth chart when he plays.

 

[Carddan]

Special Teams Performances

The Play of our Special Teams was very good.
(I always try to mix some statistics in with my analysis)

Rackers made his field goal and extra point but only had two kickoffs. The opening kick was five yards deep in the end zone for no return. The second kick was one yard deep but we allowed a 35 yard return. It was late in the game and I didn’t check which players were in on the coverage team.

Graham was outstanding. 6 punts for a 44.3 yard average and three were downed inside the 20. Only two of his punts were returned. There was a ten yard return following a 54 yard kick and a 13 yard return following a 59 yard kick. The net yardage is outstanding.

Mike Leach is one of the first players downfield after a punt. I believe he was responsible for one of the fair catches being called. His effort will have an impact.

Breaston ran back one KO for 14 yards and fair caught one punt.

Rolle made one fair catch and fumbled after 4 yds on his second punt return.

Garvin returned 4 KOs for a total of 120 yds. Twice he brought it back outside the 30 and twice across the 40 yd line. He also fielded 3 punts for a total of 30 return yards.

With Breaston banged up, and Rolle’s performance so far, will Garvin field every kick Saturday? Will some one else, like LSH, be given a look?

I can not wait for Saturday!!!

 

[Mitch]

I love ya Mitch but you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this topic.

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There are two ways to look at your charge of hypocrisy, AF! Pun intended.

First: There are two different contexts. In the first one regarding Whiz covering for Leinart, what was irking me at the time was that Leinart had been already tabbed the starting QB going into TC...which is un-Whiz like in the first place. I think it's pretty clear in retrospect that Whiz was being pressured by the Bidwills to start Leinart...something that made Whiz very uncomfortable.

Thus, after showing his obvious displeasure with Leinart on the sidelines in Oakland, covering up for him later sounded disingenuous.

Leinart's being tabbed the starter after Warner had led the team to a 5-3 record and 30 ppg the last eight games of the previous season reeked of fishiness. At the very least: this should have been billed as an open competition between Leinart and Warner. It wasn't. But, behind the scenes Warner was getting some timely encouragement from Whiz and Haley...this was going to be Warner's gig and everyone but Leinart and the Bidwills knew it.

This is why Whiz was so outraged when ESPN reported following the Raider game that Warner would be named the new starting QB in Arizona. Even ESPN knew it...and this was embarrassing for Whiz, and he truly did not want to throw Leinart (or the Bidwills) under the bus or embarrass him and them...but Whiz did ultimately what he always tries to do: he did what he thought would best help the Cardinals to win games.

Others have said this and I agree: Whiz is not convinced Leinart has the makeup or the skill set to run the offense the way Whiz wants it run. Leinart has made some inroads there...but Whiz is still unsure about Leinart. Whiz's emphatic hurry to sign BSP and promise to give BSP a legitimate chance to win the #2 job all point to the notion that Whiz is unsure of Leinart and hopeful for BSP. This is not a coach's ploy to motivate Leinart...although Whiz does believe in the merits of competition for bringing out the best in the players and the team.

The fact that Whiz kept Breaston and Urban in the game that late into it, for the purpose of giving BSP a better chance to be successful, also points to Whiz's hopes for BSP.

When Whiz told the media that BSP "didn't get much help out there", Whiz was being as honest and ingenuous as he possibly can be. This year he doesn't have to worry about the Bidwills...having taken the Cardinals to the Super Bowl and having made the most IMPORTANT decision to pave the way for that (naming Warner the starter)...the Bidwills are now leaving matters in the hands of their coach.

I was one of the very few last summer who battled the whole Leinart for starting QB bandwagon. For that I was berated incessently throughout the summer. OK. I get it. I was messing with the comfy notion that the far younger Leinart, the #10 pick in the 2006 draft, a Heisman Trophy winner and NCAA Champion QB at USC, was the panacea for this struggling franchise's woes. I do get that...all of it. And I was very enthused about Leinart myself for the performance he turned in in the now infamous MNF game versus the Bears...I thought he played excellent football in that game...he was decisive and poised and effective.

But...since that time Leinart has never quite been the same. Blame this in part on Dennis Green...who fired the OC after the Bears' game and put Leinart and the team in a state of constant and unsettling flux.

Enter Ken Whisenhunt the following year. Notice what happened with Leinart with Whiz in charge...Leinart was apparently slow to pick up the system, so slow in fact, that Whiz elected to platoon Leinart with Warner, who came in to run a two minute offense. The disparity of their play that first season was significant. The offense would sputter with Leinart in the game and all of a sudden Warner would come in and bang, bang, bang, the offense was moving the chains left and right.

The truth is: Warner was and remains the best fit for Whiz's system.

Whiz knew this last year, but just as he caved into the Bidwill's demands to retain DC Clancy Pendergast, Whiz acquiesced to the Bidwills' desire to have Leinart emerge as the starting QB. Part of the Bidwills' predilection for going with Leinart was business related. They didn't want to have to pay Warner a starting QB's salary...and knew that Warner was one year from becoming a free agent.

This off-season, fresh off the team's first ever Super Bowl berth, Whiz has become the happy ecdysiast, shedding himself of Pendergast and all other Bidwillian personnel and staff meddlings. This is clearly Whiz's show now and he holds the golden keys...which is why he could even have the audacity to throw Leinart into a #2 QB competition versus an unheralded QB that Whiz has groomed for several years while at Pittsburgh and now while in Arizona.

The Bidwills have every reason to trust in Whiz and are happy to do so...the only thing is, they nearly screwed up the Warner negotiations...which further proves the point that they really didn't want to have to pony up the big bucks for a free agent QB when they were already heavily invested in Leinart. However, as crazy as this might sound, if Whiz is confident in BSP, don't be surprised if, in order to improve their pass rush (#1 need right now for returning to the Super Bowl) the Cardinals trade Leinart to a team that suddenly is in desperate need for a QB.

Be honest with yourselves...with Whiz as head coach, how many of you honestly believe that Leinart will one day be his starting QB of choice?

 

[JeffGollin]

I agree that it may be a bit premature to write off BSP, given his surrounding cast of characters.

However, I think - based on performance - Leinart holds the high ground for the #2 spot (i.e. it's now his job to lose). And I also think Palko showed enough to throw open the competition for the #3 spot (and am tempted to say that the job may be now Palko's to lose and BSP's to win).

Hey! Life is unfair but it's a jungle out there.

Fortunately, we have a couple of weeks for these decisions to sort themselves out - there's still time for BSP to appear a couple of times more and knock everybody's socks off (and you never know whether young QB's like Leinart and Palko will be consistent enough to maintain a high level of performance). So let's just relax and enjoy the show.

Regarding Garvin and Breaston: Steve's knee injury should be considered a wake-up call. Both he and Rolle are too valuable at WR and S to risk losing because of over-use or the greater risk of injury resulting from more touches.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Be honest with yourselves...with Whiz as head coach, how many of you honestly believe that Leinart will one day be his starting QB of choice?

Mitch I can tell you unequivically Wiz will give Leinart every opportunity to be the guy when Warner is done. All evidence, quotes, and actions taken has pointed to this. Giving BSP a chance is not a big a deal as many have made it out to be as has been gone over many times because Wiz knows he needs the depth and he also knows competiton brings out the best in guys looking to make a name for themselves.

Just because Wiz inherited Matt doesn't automatically mean he doesnt' want him to ultimately be the starter. Your Bidwill wanted Leinart stuff is all conjecture on your part.

And the funny thing is I believe Matt IS the better fit skills wise for what Wiz wants to run as an offense (bootlegs and rollouts, running game, play action pass) even moreso then Warner. It just turned out Warner is a damn champion slinging the ball and when you have Q and Fitz on either side you go with the hot hand.

I still belive the decision last year was tough for Wiz and THAT'S why he was irate about the ESPN report. I don't know why you think he would go out of his way to make up how he didn't sleep the night before the decision. And to this day - and quotes at the time will back this up - he went with Warner because of the vets presence for the first 3 of 4 on the road. NOT only because of the bad Oakland game although that played a part. I am not sure he anticipated the numbers Warner was going to put up and kinda "lucked" into the year Kurt had last year.

In 2007 Wiz had the choice between the 2 guys and he went with Leinart only to bring Warner in for the 2 minute drill. And he named Matt the starter going into TC last year because he DOES have faith in him. You talk about all the "fishyness" but maybe it just comes down to he DOES like Matt but is only going to put him in there when he is ready and doesn't have the option of the NFC Pro Bowl starter.

Your just seeing what you want to see Mitch. If he truly belived Matt wasn't the future A) He would have drafted at least one young guy this past year B) Matt (who would have more insight into this then anyone) would have seen the writing on the wall and at least have brought up a trade at this point.

I mean you must think Matt is pretty dumb to know the coach doesn't buy in yet hes just going to sit around waiting for this opportunity that you believe is never going to come.

I am kinda tired of discussing this to be honest because what I have learned is the Pro Warner guys are going to see what they want to see and twist and turn, and the guys pulling for Matt are probably going to have some bias in there answers.

But at the end of the day the chances are we will get to see what Matts future with this team is by the end of the year. Whether Matt has the goods or not is one thing but yes, I believe Wiz fully intedns to hands the reigns over when it is his time.

That's why he is doing all the prodding and superficial "competition" with BSP thing....he's trying to get the most out of him.

Otherwise he wouldn't even bother.

 

[Duckjake]

Others have said this and I agree: Whiz is not convinced Leinart has the makeup or the skill set to run the offense the way Whiz wants it run.

I have to agree with Arizona's finest on this. I don't think that the arena league game the Cards are playing now is the way Whisenhunt wants to run the offense but he is smart enough to know that with the personnel we have it is the best chance for us to win.

Now if Whisenhunt wants some caretaker QB to just hand the ball off and throw an occasional pass just to keep the D honest then he's not as smart as I think he is. Unless you have one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL that offense just doesn't work.

 

[joeshmo]

Edit - Dont want to keep the debate going, especially one based on 99% conjecture on everyones part.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch I can tell you unequivically Wiz will give Leinart every opportunity to be the guy when Warner is done. All evidence, quotes, and actions taken has pointed to this. Giving BSP a chance is not a big a deal as many have made it out to be as has been gone over many times because Wiz knows he needs the depth and he also knows competiton brings out the best in guys looking to make a name for themselves.

Just because Wiz inherited Matt doesn't automatically mean he doesnt' want him to ultimately be the starter. Your Bidwill wanted Leinart stuff is all conjecture on your part.

And the funny thing is I believe Matt IS the better fit skills wise for what Wiz wants to run as an offense (bootlegs and rollouts, running game, play action pass) even moreso then Warner. It just turned out Warner is a damn champion slinging the ball and when you have Q and Fitz on either side you go with the hot hand.

I still belive the decision last year was tough for Wiz and THAT'S why he was irate about the ESPN report. I don't know why you think he would go out of his way to make up how he didn't sleep the night before the decision. And to this day - and quotes at the time will back this up - he went with Warner because of the vets presence for the first 3 of 4 on the road. NOT only because of the bad Oakland game although that played a part. I am not sure he anticipated the numbers Warner was going to put up and kinda "lucked" into the year Kurt had last year.

In 2007 Wiz had the choice between the 2 guys and he went with Leinart only to bring Warner in for the 2 minute drill. And he named Matt the starter going into TC last year because he DOES have faith in him. You talk about all the "fishyness" but maybe it just comes down to he DOES like Matt but is only going to put him in there when he is ready and doesn't have the option of the NFC Pro Bowl starter.

Your just seeing what you want to see Mitch. If he truly belived Matt wasn't the future A) He would have drafted at least one young guy this past year B) Matt (who would have more insight into this then anyone) would have seen the writing on the wall and at least have brought up a trade at this point.

I mean you must think Matt is pretty dumb to know the coach doesn't buy in yet hes just going to sit around waiting for this opportunity that you believe is never going to come.

I am kinda tired of discussing this to be honest because what I have learned is the Pro Warner guys are going to see what they want to see and twist and turn, and the guys pulling for Matt are probably going to have some bias in there answers.

But at the end of the day the chances are we will get to see what Matts future with this team is by the end of the year. Whether Matt has the goods or not is one thing but yes, I believe Wiz fully intedns to hands the reigns over when it is his time.

That's why he is doing all the prodding and superficial "competition" with BSP thing....he's trying to get the most out of him.

Otherwise he wouldn't even bother.

You make a good argument, AF. You really do. I respect everything you said and see the merit in it. But, I don't see Leinart ever being Whiz's QB of choice. I think Whiz already expects BSP to be the #2 this year if Warner is out. I think Whiz has more confidence in BSP, and it's as simple as that. This doesn't mean Whiz dispespects Leinart's abilities, per se. I just don't think he sees Leinart as a fit in his system.

I think BSP can stink the entire pre-season and still be the #2...simply because when the pressure is on, Whiz will trust him to follow through on the team's preparation.

In some ways Whiz is like Bill Belichick in the way in which Whiz believes in his preparation and the ways in which his system will work, especially in giving trust to the players he thinks are most deserving of that trust.

For example, last summer I went to the Eagles-Patriots pre-season game at Gilette Stadium. Tom Brady started, played a couple of series and then Matt Cassell replaced Brady. In this game, Cassell could not complete a pass of more than five yards. He was horrible and was getting booed---in pre-season, no less.

The Boston media was imploring the Pats to cut Cassell immediately...and sign the best veteran free agent QB possible. All the worry was, what would happen if Brady got hurt?

Belichick kept Cassell obviously because he trusted that if Cassell ever did have to start, through preparation and teamwork, Cassell would get the job done. To watch Cassell thrive and excel in that system was an amazing thing, for he surpassed all expectations by a mile.

Cassell, ironically, didn't even play in college because he was stuck behind Leinart at USC.

Whiz is a big trust guy. This is why he will never cut a healthy Sean Morey, for example.

I believe that Whiz will try to make things look favorable for Leinart, primarily so as to protect Leinart's trade value as best he can...but, when the pressure is on, Whiz will turn to St. Pierre. The trust factor.

 

[Mitch]

Edit - Dont want to keep the debate going, especially one based on 99% conjecture on everyones part.

I don't think Whiz is that difficult to figure out. Sure, there's conjecture whenever anyone tries to make a case for what Whiz's motives are.

I think you understand Whiz's motivational strategies very well and stated them with excellent examples.

But, I also think that at times Whiz tips off his hand, which is what I think he's doing with BSP.

The sticking point with BSP's contract and why it took up until the 11th hour right before free agency started was that Whiz wanted to sign BSP to a multi-year deal. But, BSP, did not want to commit longer-term to a backup's salary. He believes he can be a starter in this league...which is one of the reasons why Whiz likes BSP so much. Some backup QBs get content in their roles and will accept long term salaries a notch above the veteran minimum.

The selling point of the contract wasn't the $200K...it was the promise Whiz made to give BSP a fair chance to compete for the #2 job...which, as BSP sees it, is a future opportunity to take over for Warner when Warner is hurt and when he retires.

What many people don't realize is that BSP has some real believers in the NFL. Whiz is one. Todd Haley is one. And Steve Mariucci is another. Last year when reviewing a BSP TD pass in pre-season, Mooch said on NFL Network, "this kid is going to make a nice starter in the NFL one day." Mooch wasn't flying by the seat of his pants there.

Some discredit BSP because of his age and lack of game experience, which is understandable. But, Warner got a late start as have others. If BSP did take over in two years for Warner he'd be 32 and could probably have four or five very good years in him at least.

 

[Garthshort]

Mitch, don't know if you're correct about BSP, but he does have a strong arm and throws a nice pass. Three PS games to go and to show.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Be honest with yourselves...with Whiz as head coach, how many of you honestly believe that Leinart will one day be his starting QB of choice?

I do.

(but, unlike some, I'm not privy to Whiz's intimate thoughts)

 

[Carddan]

Be honest with yourselves...with Whiz as head coach, how many of you honestly believe that Leinart will one day be his starting QB of choice?

I do.

(but, unlike some, I'm not privy to Whiz's intimate thoughts)

Contract issues could come up ($$$) but I do think Matt will start for us some day. I also think he might be very successful. We might look back on the whole process some day and say "wow" the maturity that Matt gained as a back-up was invaluable. We won a Super Bowls with Kurt and Matt! (OK, I've been drinking a little too much kool-ade for 10 am) What I'm saying, is that while they are different, I believe that under Whisenunt, the could both be excellent.