Post Steeers' Game: Roster Thoughts

[Arizona's Finest]

Edit - Dont want to keep the debate going, especially one based on 99% conjecture on everyones part.

FWIW I thought your post was excellent and brought strong factual evidence into play. And that is much needed in this "debate".

 

[Mitch]

FWIW I thought your post was excellent and brought strong factual evidence into play. And that is much needed in this "debate".

I agree. It was well written and well argued.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have to agree with Arizona's finest on this. I don't think that the arena league game the Cards are playing now is the way Whisenhunt wants to run the offense but he is smart enough to know that with the personnel we have it is the best chance for us to win.

Now if Whisenhunt wants some caretaker QB to just hand the ball off and throw an occasional pass just to keep the D honest then he's not as smart as I think he is. Unless you have one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL that offense just doesn't work.

Exactly, Whiz doesn't want to throw the ball all over the stadium like we do he just realized that given the current personnel, that's what we did best. So he was smart enough and had a small enough ego that he was able to adapt.

Matt went through a very tough shock treatment from loosey goosey don't give a crap Dennis Green to a coach who was literally telling him how to backpedal as a QB. That was a huge shock, given Matt's other issues adapting from his lifestyle to committing to being an NFL QB. I don't think Whiz would have put the time in on Matt if he didn't think highly of him, he'd have just talked him up and then traded him and gone with Warner and BSP.

I don't think Matt's still here just because his contract is difficult to trade, he's here because they still think he's the QB of the future.

 

[Buckybird]

Mitch, what aspects of Leinart's game do you see that don't fit Wiz's offense? To me, Leinart fits it to a tee. I know it was college, but look at the Trojans offense: like to run the rock, play action pass with big chunks downfield through the air. Wasn't that the Steelers offense? To me Matt proved as a rookie he can throw the football and be a very good if not great QB in this league given the opportunity. People forget the kid has only started 15 NFL games in his career. I think when Warner is done and Leinart knows he doesn't have to look over his shoulder he will succeed bigtime.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch, what aspects of Leinart's game do you see that don't fit Wiz's offense? To me, Leinart fits it to a tee. I know it was college, but look at the Trojans offense: like to run the rock, play action pass with big chunks downfield through the air. Wasn't that the Steelers offense? To me Matt proved as a rookie he can throw the football and be a very good if not great QB in this league given the opportunity. People forget the kid has only started 15 NFL games in his career. I think when Warner is done and Leinart knows he doesn't have to look over his shoulder he will succeed bigtime.

Actually, Bucky, I think some of the guys on this thread made good points about Leinart being better suited for a more traditional offense that stresses the running game and play action.

But, I think Whiz's concern with Leinart is the combination of throwing off the back foot (which decreases his already suspect arm strength), his somewhat slow release, and his propensity to release the ball too high, which causes the nose of the football to rise, thus leading to too much arc on the ball.

The other question about Leinart is, is his physical and mental toughness. There's a perception among NFL coaches that he's been coddled most of his life. He was certainly coddled at USC under Pete Carroll (whom NFL coaches think is a joke)...and he was surrounded by all-star talent, three deep at every position.

The beer bong incident was also unfortunate and extremely irresponsible on his part. It did little to dissuade Leinart's critics for being perceived as a glorified college frat boy...which is what some of his critics already thought when he elected to return to USC for his senior year after having won the Heisman, an NCAA Championship and put himself in line to be a top three draft pick.

I am talking about perception here.

These are the issues that Leinart has to put to rest if he is ever going to become a highy respected starting QB in this league.

Lastly, and I've said this before, I think it says a lot about Leinart that in an extremely QB starved market this off-season, that in light of Warner re-signing for huge bucks and securing the #1 QB job for TWO more years, Leinart did not ask for a trade. One would think he wouldn't want to put his career on hold for yet another two years, when he could have found himself in someone's starting lineup.

Had Warner's deal been ONE year and Leinart promised the reins afterward, that's a different story. But, Leinart has not only been promised NOTHING, he currently finds himself in a battle for the #2 QB spot.

I know the argument that Leinart proponents make in this regard: they laud his loyalty, patience and perseverance.

Could it be, though, that Leinart is actually comfortable in his current role, getting fat paychecks to support his hedonistic lifestyle, and not having to sacrifice his body in the interim?

You would think that now 4 years into his career he'd do ANYTHING to be a starter.

What Leinart stayed around for is this current #2 QB competition, which, for a #10 draft pick in 2006, does not do wonders for his already suspect image around the league. If Whiz is making Leinart earn the #2 after what Leinart went through last year with the whole charade of him being the appointed starter going into camp, what does this say to the rest of the league? And what does this suggest about Whiz's confidence in him?

 

[MrYeahBut]

Could it be, though, that Leinart is actually comfortable in his current role, getting fat paychecks to support his hedonistic lifestyle, and not having to sacrifice his body in the interim?

I find this line of reasoning very credible, however I beg to differ on one point. His hedonistic lifestyle would require him to sacrifice his body especially if that lifestyle included a **********.

 

[Mitch]

I find this line of reasoning very credible, however I beg to differ on one point. His hedonistic lifestyle would require him to sacrifice his body especially if that lifestyle included a **********.

Great point, MRYB! Beyond the **********, all he has to do is avoid Terry Tate!

 

[Buckybird]

Thx Mitch, Hope you're wrong about the kid because I don't want to start this process over again in finding a QB in 2 years.

 

[Duckjake]

Lastly, and I've said this before, I think it says a lot about Leinart that in an extremely QB starved market this off-season, that in light of Warner re-signing for huge bucks and securing the #1 QB job for TWO more years, Leinart did not ask for a trade. One would think he wouldn't want to put his career on hold for yet another two years, when he could have found himself in someone's starting lineup.

Had Warner's deal been ONE year and Leinart promised the reins afterward, that's a different story. But, Leinart has not only been promised NOTHING, he currently finds himself in a battle for the #2 QB spot.

What Leinart stayed around for is this current #2 QB competition, which, for a #10 draft pick in 2006, does not do wonders for his already suspect image around the league. If Whiz is making Leinart earn the #2 after what Leinart went through last year with the whole charade of him being the appointed starter going into camp, what does this say to the rest of the league? And what does this suggest about Whiz's confidence in him?

Well written post and I can see how some might feel that way. But all you need to do is look at the immense negative reaction the fans had and the damage it did to his rep when Boldin requested a trade, and he was one of the most popular players on the team.

If Leinart had requested a trade the number of posts condemning him and telling him not to let the door hit him on the way out would have been legion. The negative impact it would have had on his image would have sent a message far worse to the rest of the league.

Leinart did exactly what people want Boldin, Dansby, and Dockett to do. He kept quiet and continued to be a team player working to get better. Now Leinart is in a position to get paid a huge sum of money either by the Cards or someone else and is in line to eventually be the starting QB for one of the leagues up and coming franchises, in a great city, for 10 years or more.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Could it be, though, that Leinart is actually comfortable in his current role, getting fat paychecks to support his hedonistic lifestyle, and not having to sacrifice his body in the interim?

You would think that now 4 years into his career he'd do ANYTHING to be a starter.

Some people can't win for losing.

 

[joeshmo]

The other question about Leinart is, is his physical and mental toughness. There's a perception among NFL coaches that he's been coddled most of his life. He was certainly coddled at USC under Pete Carroll (whom NFL coaches think is a joke)...and he was surrounded by all-star talent, three deep at every position.

That is about as far from the truth as it gets. He wasnt even close to being coddled at USC. He fought off talented prospect after talented prospect every year to stay on top. When Palmer was in his senior year, it was Matt Cassell who was the #2 QB, Matt was #3. Palmer left for the NFL and Matt had to beat out Cassell in spring ball for the #1 spot, it wasnt given to him. All the while the coaches brought in the most highly touted QB to learn the offense for a year. Then his Junior year he wasnt given the starters job again and had to earn it over the highly touted second year man John David Booty. The kid wasnt coddled at all and had to fight for his starting postition his Sophmore and Junior years against much more touted prospects the media thought would get the job.

Lastly, and I've said this before, I think it says a lot about Leinart that in an extremely QB starved market this off-season, that in light of Warner re-signing for huge bucks and securing the #1 QB job for TWO more years, Leinart did not ask for a trade. One would think he wouldn't want to put his career on hold for yet another two years, when he could have found himself in someone's starting lineup.

You cant have it both ways. First you say his perception is of a guy who has been coddled his whole career who hasnt faught for anything. Then you go and bash him for not asking for a trade. And what would asking for a trade show, he doesnt like not being coddled and doesnt want to fight for a job? Which is it do you want him to show he is willing to fight for his job and is not being coddled or do you want him to show selfishness by asking for a trade?

Had Warner's deal been ONE year and Leinart promised the reins afterward, that's a different story. But, Leinart has not only been promised NOTHING, he currently finds himself in a battle for the #2 QB spot.

But that would mean he was being coddled and you would hate him for that as well. Your playing both sides of the coin here, which shows just how biased your view of him is. I mean you bashed Wiz and Matt for the conjecture Or I mean theory of Wiz first year here, yet your calling for it to happen again, not battling for a spot? Damned if you, Damned if you dont in your opinion I guess.

Could it be, though, that Leinart is actually comfortable in his current role, getting fat paychecks to support his hedonistic lifestyle, and not having to sacrifice his body in the interim?

Welcome to 2009 Mitch. First you just described 99% of the NFL. Warner being the 1%. The NFL players are some of the biggest partiers out of the major sports. Second, since Matt got more custody of his kid he hasnt lived that lifestyle for the most part of a year and a half now. We arent talking about 2007 anymore.

What Leinart stayed around for is this current #2 QB competition, which, for a #10 draft pick in 2006, does not do wonders for his already suspect image around the league.

Actually his image is pretty good right now. 90% of the media is talking about how mature he is now, how hard he is working now, and so on. So again welcome to 2009.

If Whiz is making Leinart earn the #2 after what Leinart went through last year with the whole charade of him being the appointed starter going into camp, what does this say to the rest of the league? And what does this suggest about Whiz's confidence in him?

You call it charade, which would make Wiz a liar by the way and we know he isnt, we call it conjecture based on not a single fact.

Why do you think a player going through competition means Wiz doesnt have confidence in them. Competition is what it is, COMPETITION, you know Wiz main mantra of this football team. Its nothing more and its nothing less, its just Wiz following through with his main teachings.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

That is about as far from the truth as it gets. He wasnt even close to being coddled at USC. He fought off talented prospect after talented prospect every year to stay on top. When Palmer was in his senior year, it was Matt Cassell who was the #2 QB, Matt was #3. Palmer left for the NFL and Matt had to beat out Cassell in spring ball for the #1 spot, it wasnt given to him. All the while the coaches brought in the most highly touted QB to learn the offense for a year. Then his Junior year he wasnt given the starters job again and had to earn it over the highly touted second year man John David Booty. The kid wasnt coddled at all and had to fight for his starting postition his Sophmore and Junior years against much more touted prospects the media thought would get the job.



You cant have it both ways. First you say his perception is of a guy who has been coddled his whole career who hasnt faught for anything. Then you go and bash him for not asking for a trade. And what would asking for a trade show, he doesnt like not being coddled and doesnt want to fight for a job? Which is it do you want him to show he is willing to fight for his job and is not being coddled or do you want him to show selfishness by asking for a trade?



But that would mean he was being coddled and you would hate him for that as well. Your playing both sides of the coin here, which shows just how biased your view of him is.



Welcome to 2009 Mitch. First you just described 99% of the NFL. Warner being the 1%. The NFL players are some of the biggest partiers out of the major sports. Second, since Matt got more custody of his kid he hasnt lived that lifestyle for the most part of a year and a half now. We arent talking about 2007 anymore.



Actually his image is pretty good right now. 90% of the media is talking about how mature he is now, how hard he is working now, and so on. So again welcome to 2009.



You call it charade, which would make Wiz a liar by the way and we know he isnt, we call it conjecture based on not a single fact.

Why do you think a player going through competition means Wiz doesnt have confidence in them. Competition is what it is, COMPETITION, you know Wiz main mantra of this football team. Its nothing more and its nothing less, its just Wiz following through with his main teachings.

:notworthy

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort, Joe.

We all know that there is another third stringer that Mitch will adopt in the not too distant.

 

[joeshmo]

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort, Joe.

We all know that there is another third stringer that Mitch will adopt in the not too distant.

And I dont even care who wins the job. Ever since Wiz got here I have no allegences to who starts or backups or what ever. He has drilled into my head his mantra of competition and I finally get it, and have faith he will pick the right person.

Plus for the first time in 3 years of watching him in training camp I have been somewhat impressed and for the first time see what Wiz might see. I am just calling it like it is and correcting some things with actual facts instead of conjecture. If BSP plays well this Saturday I will say he looked good, if Matt plays poorly I will say he played poorly, let the best man win from man #1 to man #53 on the roster.

 

[Mitch]

I heard the same vitriol, Joe, when I was the only one saying that Dennis Green should be fired.

Your bullying doesn't phase me in the least.

I think you are wrong about Leinart, and just as time vindicated my stance on Denny "Pie Chart" Green, it may also do the same with your Matty Light.

I talked about perception, Joe...for right or wrong. For you to refute the negative aspects of the perception around the league about Leinart, is just plain ignorant. The perception is real.

The only person who is going to change those perceptions is Leinart.

Don't waste our time with he's worked hard, been a good family man, etc., etc....the very CONJECTURE you are making...

What Leinart has to do is go out and prove he has the toughness and the skill to be a good, starting QB in the NFL. Thus far, NONE of that has been proven and the perceptions, whether you think they are fair or not, remain.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

That is about as far from the truth as it gets. He wasnt even close to being coddled at USC. He fought off talented prospect after talented prospect every year to stay on top. When Palmer was in his senior year, it was Matt Cassell who was the #2 QB, Matt was #3. Palmer left for the NFL and Matt had to beat out Cassell in spring ball for the #1 spot, it wasnt given to him. All the while the coaches brought in the most highly touted QB to learn the offense for a year. Then his Junior year he wasnt given the starters job again and had to earn it over the highly touted second year man John David Booty. The kid wasnt coddled at all and had to fight for his starting postition his Sophmore and Junior years against much more touted prospects the media thought would get the job.



You cant have it both ways. First you say his perception is of a guy who has been coddled his whole career who hasnt faught for anything. Then you go and bash him for not asking for a trade. And what would asking for a trade show, he doesnt like not being coddled and doesnt want to fight for a job? Which is it do you want him to show he is willing to fight for his job and is not being coddled or do you want him to show selfishness by asking for a trade?



But that would mean he was being coddled and you would hate him for that as well. Your playing both sides of the coin here, which shows just how biased your view of him is. I mean you bashed Wiz and Matt for the conjecture Or I mean theory of Wiz first year here, yet your calling for it to happen again, not battling for a spot? Damned if you, Damned if you dont in your opinion I guess.



Welcome to 2009 Mitch. First you just described 99% of the NFL. Warner being the 1%. The NFL players are some of the biggest partiers out of the major sports. Second, since Matt got more custody of his kid he hasnt lived that lifestyle for the most part of a year and a half now. We arent talking about 2007 anymore.



Actually his image is pretty good right now. 90% of the media is talking about how mature he is now, how hard he is working now, and so on. So again welcome to 2009.



You call it charade, which would make Wiz a liar by the way and we know he isnt, we call it conjecture based on not a single fact.

Why do you think a player going through competition means Wiz doesnt have confidence in them. Competition is what it is, COMPETITION, you know Wiz main mantra of this football team. Its nothing more and its nothing less, its just Wiz following through with his main teachings.

Wow. You must have a doctorate in debate because that was the absolute apex of logic and excellence converging together in one post.

Good stuff and Exhibit A of why I love this board. It also feels good to hear that analysis from someone who has a better pulse for the team then anyone I know.

Or I guess don't know.....

 

[ajcardfan]

I heard the same vitriol, Joe, when I was the only one saying that Dennis Green should be fired.

Your bullying doesn't phase me in the least.

Bah, he wasn't being vitriolic or bullying at all.

Hopefully, your analysis of the "perceptions" about Leinart are as every bit as accurate as how you evlauted Fitz last offseason. You would've dumped him in a garbage trade and we would've had another losing season had you been the GM.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I heard the same vitriol, Joe, when I was the only one saying that Dennis Green should be fired.

Your bullying doesn't phase me in the least.

I think you are wrong about Leinart, and just as time vindicated my stance on Denny "Pie Chart" Green, it may also do the same with your Matty Light.

I talked about perception, Joe...for right or wrong. For you to refute the negative aspects of the perception around the league about Leinart, is just plain ignorant. The perception is real.

The only person who is going to change those perceptions is Leinart.

Don't waste our time with he's worked hard, been a good family man, etc., etc....the very CONJECTURE you are making...

What Leinart has to do is go out and prove he has the toughness and the skill to be a good, starting QB in the NFL. Thus far, NONE of that has been proven and the perceptions, whether you think they are fair or not, remain.

Bullying? Mitch he took every statement you made and spliced it to the point where it broke down this issue to its absolute core:

You just don't like Matt. Period.

You are SO bias that you are actually cheering/fighting for a guy who has thrown one career (incomplete) pass to beat him out and prove a point that you have been making in vain ever since you started fawning over this kid from his time at BC.

Even when every bit of video, ancedotal, and statistical analysis shows he doesn't have as much talent or ability as Leinart has in his finger.

You're bias and its okay. At the end of the day we are all fans in one form or another.

But don't get mad at Joe for pointing it out.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I heard the same vitriol, Joe, when I was the only one saying that Dennis Green should be fired.

Your bullying doesn't phase me in the least.

I think you are wrong about Leinart, and just as time vindicated my stance on Denny "Pie Chart" Green, it may also do the same with your Matty Light.

I talked about perception, Joe...for right or wrong. For you to refute the negative aspects of the perception around the league about Leinart, is just plain ignorant. The perception is real.

The only person who is going to change those perceptions is Leinart.

Don't waste our time with he's worked hard, been a good family man, etc., etc....the very CONJECTURE you are making...

What Leinart has to do is go out and prove he has the toughness and the skill to be a good, starting QB in the NFL. Thus far, NONE of that has been proven and the perceptions, whether you think they are fair or not, remain.

i'm no brainiac,but aren't conjecture and perception similar things,both being based on hearsay? Why is Joe wrong and Mitch right ?

 

[CaptTurbo]

I heard the same vitriol, Joe, when I was the only one saying that Dennis Green should be fired.

Your bullying doesn't phase me in the least.

I think you are wrong about Leinart, and just as time vindicated my stance on Denny "Pie Chart" Green, it may also do the same with your Matty Light.

I talked about perception, Joe...for right or wrong. For you to refute the negative aspects of the perception around the league about Leinart, is just plain ignorant. The perception is real.

The only person who is going to change those perceptions is Leinart.

Don't waste our time with he's worked hard, been a good family man, etc., etc....the very CONJECTURE you are making...

What Leinart has to do is go out and prove he has the toughness and the skill to be a good, starting QB in the NFL. Thus far, NONE of that has been proven and the perceptions, whether you think they are fair or not, remain.

I think Matt is happy to take the same role Steve Yound did. Learn from a great one and then go in and be a great QB. Sounds like your BSP love is still going strong for some reason or another.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I think Whiz already expects BSP to be the #2 this year if Warner is out. I think Whiz has more confidence in BSP, and it's as simple as that. This doesn't mean Whiz dispespects Leinart's abilities, per se. I just don't think he sees Leinart as a fit in his system.

I think BSP can stink the entire pre-season and still be the #2...simply because when the pressure is on, Whiz will trust him to follow through on the team's preparation..

I will bet you 5 million A$FN dollar BSP is not #2 come the season.