Potential trade partners to keep an eye on

[elindholm]

the ONLY one of that group that is in any way shape or form at the same stage of development as Embid, Parker or Randle was JJ

And remember then that the Celtics were trying to gear up for a playoff run when they made that trade. Rogers and Delk gave them more firepower off the bench than they could have gotten right away from Johnson. It was a "win now" move for them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And remember then that the Celtics were trying to gear up for a playoff run when they made that trade. Rogers and Delk gave them more firepower off the bench than they could have gotten right away from Johnson. It was a "win now" move for them.

good point.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So the whole "stockpiling assets" thing is a fantasy then?

My point was talking about players that we might have interest in. You can feel free to add yours to the list. Or you can continue to describe how every previously mentioned young player that was moved is some sort of unique exception. I am really curious why every discussion as to degenerate into "you are stupid to be even considering that player would be a desirable addition because our roster is awful and there is no possible way that team would ever trade that player under any circumstances."

 

[elindholm]

So the whole "stockpiling assets" thing is a fantasy then?

Pretty much.

I am really curious why every discussion as to degenerate into "you are stupid to be even considering that player would be a desirable addition because our roster is awful and there is no possible way that team would ever trade that player under any circumstances."

That's a fair criticism. I honestly thought you might be joking.

The Suns' roster isn't awful, and their players aren't awful. But the gap between "decent" and "elite" is huge. It's much, much easier to go from 35 wins to 50 than it is to go from 50 to 60. (Just look at how many times in their history the Suns have won 50-59 games compared to 60+.)

You don't get from 50 to 60 with small additions or with players like Marcus Morris getting a couple more years of development. You need premium talent. And the teams who have premium talent don't give it up for interchangeable mediocre role players, unless circumstances are really dire. (Barkley's trade from Phoenix to Houston is an example of dire circumstances; for all practical purposes, the Suns gave him away for free.)

Nearly everyone on this board agreed two years ago that the Suns needed to bottom out, clear cap space, and then hit a home run in either the draft or free agency. Well, they cleared cap space and got a #5 pick, but it happened to be in a very weak draft, and they wound up with a longshot prospect who might turn out to be decent but who is equally likely to be a bust.

So, okay, they were still in good shape for the 2014 draft -- except that they wound up with a plucky band of misfits who improbably played themselves to a winning record. They had a few picks to try to package for a move up, but no one bit. And poof, the dreams of a draft home run went up in smoke. Wiggins, Parker, Embiid -- one of those was supposed to be in Phoenix. That was the plan.

There was still free agency. A couple of big names moved this summer, and a couple of others could have moved but stayed put. The Suns didn't get any of them, which is the way it goes, but now they've added several medium-sized salaries and have given up some of their future flexibility.

That leaves trades. But there's a reason that this board didn't identify trades as a promising path two years ago -- they're very hard to pull off, and you really need the premium talent first before you can think realistically about a blockbuster trade. Everyone understood that two years ago, but now a lot of people seem to have forgotten, and so to rationalize, they try to see premium talent on this roster in the form of Thomas or Markieff Morris.

The Suns can't get from 50 to 60 with this roster, barring a once-in-a-generation miracle. The pieces just aren't there.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I remember hearing when we signed Thomas that he had other offers including one from Detroit that was for more money than ours. He was impressed by the red carpet treatment we gave him and the opportunity to play in our system so he took less.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I remember hearing when we signed Thomas that he had other offers including one from Detroit that was for more money than ours. He was impressed by the red carpet treatment we gave him and the opportunity to play in our system so he took less.

That could be. But it could also be an alibi. The Pistons are a disaster of an organization right now, and Thomas may have been wary of the constant comparisons to his namesake he'd have to endure if he went to Detroit. If I were "Isiah Thomas" choosing whether to try to make my career in current Phoenix or current Detroit, I wouldn't need any red carpet from Phoenix in order to dismiss the Pistons as an option.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't think the "stock piling assets" thing is a fantasy, but I think its a fantasy to imagine you're going to trade those assets for one of the most highly touted young players in the league... from a rebuilding team... while their in the 1st or 2nd season. It just does not happen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So the whole "stockpiling assets" thing is a fantasy then?

My point was talking about players that we might have interest in. You can feel free to add yours to the list. Or you can continue to describe how every previously mentioned young player that was moved is some sort of unique exception. I am really curious why every discussion as to degenerate into "you are stupid to be even considering that player would be a desirable addition because our roster is awful and there is no possible way that team would ever trade that player under any circumstances."

I don't know if this was directed at me or not. I called your thoughts really unrealistic and then gave reasons why. Doesn't mean I think you're stupid. I just don't see any way the players you discussed will be available any time soon for the guys we currently have.

but seriously... you brought up the rights to a late 1st rounder who's stashed in Europe as a coveted asset. You say something like that and it's going to bring up a lot of scrutiny.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That could be. But it could also be an alibi. The Pistons are a disaster of an organization right now, and Thomas may have been wary of the constant comparisons to his namesake he'd have to endure if he went to Detroit. If I were "Isiah Thomas" choosing whether to try to make my career in current Phoenix or current Detroit, I wouldn't need any red carpet from Phoenix in order to dismiss the Pistons as an option.

Perhaps but it still suggests there's a market for Thomas although "coveted" might be a bit strong. His numbers last season were very impressive, doing it for Sacramento though clouded the picture. Excelling on a bad team raises almost as many questions as it answers. If he can do something similar playing for us, a 50 win season might move him closer to coveted.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

That was a well put together post (#29), Eric, but the way you describe it, the Suns shouldn't even bother trying to make a trade with the current roster to improve the team. There doesn't always have to be premium players involved in trades. If the Suns had adopted that attitude, we wouldn't have Bledsoe, Plumlee, or Green on this roster right now and we wouldn't have surprised the league last year.

 

[Superbone]

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[JCSunsfan]

That was a well put together post (#29), Eric, but the way you describe it, the Suns shouldn't even bother trying to make a trade with the current roster to improve the team. There doesn't always have to be premium players involved in trades. If the Suns had adopted that attitude, we wouldn't have Bledsoe, Plumlee, or Green on this roster right now and we wouldn't have surprised the league last year.

I don't mind a well-reasoned post, even if I disagree. So in response to Eric, is the situation as dire as you say it is? What do you think the Suns should do now? Blow it up and start over?

This camp is the most upbeat I have seen this team in years. It is such a disconnect from what I see on this board.

As far as Bogdan. My impression was that his stock had increased since the draft. Not that it is great but that there is potential value there.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't mind a well-reasoned post, even if I disagree. So in response to Eric, is the situation as dire as you say it is? What do you think the Suns should do now? Blow it up and start over?

This camp is the most upbeat I have seen this team in years. It is such a disconnect from what I see on this board.

As far as Bogdan. My impression was that his stock had increased since the draft. Not that it is great but that there is potential value there.

You didn't ask me but I'll offer another view. I think he's painted the worst possible picture of a fairly neutral interpretation of our recent history, if that makes sense to anyone. If not, try this. There's a far left and a far right and then there's the middle. He's as far to one side as you can be and still be roughly in the middle. I think I'm at the other end of that middle. And instead of believing that we got lucky in a bad way, I think it's just as likely that we'll look back at the 2013 and 2014 draft classes and congratulate our management for drafting the top player in each class.

I think there's a good chance that we'll be in contention in a year or two without making any big changes because we already have the players we need. IMO, our guard rotation is going to be a game changer. And the best part, if I'm wrong, there's also a good chance that even though that will make us less than a contender, we should still be more than good enough to raise the trade value of several of our pieces. We can then use them to migrate into a more traditional team. I find either of those scenarios more likely than I do the idea we'll be locked into an average-or-less culture for several years.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

What do you think the Suns should do now? Blow it up and start over?

I don't know. That's why GMs get paid the big bucks. There's no easy solution, that's for sure.

I definitely think that the "success" of last season was bad news for the Suns' long-term future. They have a new front office and new coach who were delighted to discover how relatively easy it is to build a 50-and-fade team, so they went for it. But it's a sucker's prize, and now there's very little room for continued growth.

I personally would not have re-signed Bledsoe. He is a good talent, but the pairing of him with Dragic commits the Suns to a run-and-gun look which can excel only if you have truly transcendent players on your team, which the Suns don't. The Suns might end up being credible on the defensive end, but without a low-post option on the offensive end, they're going to be reduced to fast-breaking and hoisting up threes. Their three-point shooting isn't especially good, and their only reliable penetrator is Dragic, given that Bledsoe coughs the ball up so easily. So it's far from a world-class half-court offense.

In general, though, I'm not saying I could have done better. If you watch a baseball pitcher miss the strike zone over and over, you can identify it as a mistake even if you wouldn't yourself be able to get a Little Leaguer out.

This camp is the most upbeat I have seen this team in years.

As they should be. The only player on the roster with real playoff experience is Dragic, from when he was Nash's backup. (Well, Green has a little too, I guess -- I don't feel like looking it up.) This is an average-or-better team, and winning is more fun than losing. These players aren't yet at the stage of their careers when they are tired of early playoff exits and want something more. Heck, even .500 can be fun if you like your teammates and have the support of the community. For a while.

I'm happy for them, but at the same time, I think it's silly to dream about how this team might get to contender status.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was beginning to wonder if this thread was a bad idea. I really am not interested in a convo that degenerates into trade proposals and criticisms but maybe that's just where all message board discussions go.

Young quality players do become available. Kevin Love has been traded twice. Other players moved as well. I am thinking of players like Tyson Chandler, DWill, Joe Johnson (from the Celtics), CP3, Pau, Marc Gasol, Garnett, Harden, etc. Certainly Horford would be a candidate.

We are looking for teams that: need to rebuild and have to trade a top talent for multiple building blocks, have multiple quality young players at one position (think KJ playing behind Price or Bled behind cp3), have lots if young talent but not the right mix, or have financial problems and have to move a star level player for lesser salaries (Harden).

I like the idea of your thread. You put something tangible on the table that can be talked about all season as SirStefan32 notes. I don't understand why things have to get negative. Maybe it is just easier to criticize than be positive. There will be potential trade partners for the Suns as the season progresses when injuries and collapse take hold by other teams. All one has to look how James Harden was acquired by Houston in a trade with OKC. The Thunder only received two first round draft picks, Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb and a second round pick. This was not much for a star quality player. The Suns could do this type of trade with ease. Opportunities happen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I like the idea of your thread. You put something tangible on the table that can be talked about all season as SirStefan32 notes. I don't understand why things have to get negative.
Maybe it is just easier to criticize than be positive. There will be potential trade partners for the Suns as the season progresses when injuries and collapse take hold by other teams. All one has to look how James Harden was acquired by Houston in a trade with OKC.

again, Harden (and the HOST of other players JC mentioned as examples of talented guys getting traded) is a completely different scenario then the top picks of a loaded draft getting traded.

that's not negativity... it's reality.

The Thunder only received two first round draft picks, Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb and a second round pick. This was not much for a star quality player. The Suns could do this type of trade with ease. Opportunities happen.

maybe for a guy who's about to be a FA, playing on a team afraid of the salary cap and won't pay him... but where is that player? Because THAT'S why Harden was traded. that set of circumstances pushed OKC to make the trade. That's completely different then the situation where Philly, Milwaukee and the Lakers are.

 

[BC867]

I remember hearing when we signed Thomas that he had other offers including one from Detroit that was for more money than ours. He was impressed by the red carpet treatment we gave him and the opportunity to play in our system so he took less.

Steve

Didn't the Suns sign IT, and IT sign with the Suns, as insurance for Bledsoe either not being with the Suns or, if he were, not able to play all-out for a full season?

Situation 1 did not happen. Situation 2 remains to be seen. Again.

Even if Horny can play all three Point Guards for 32 minutes at the Point & Shooting Guard positions, only two can start and two can finish. One or two of them are going to be pissed every night.

As well as all of our Shooting Guards riding the bench. And if they are defending Small Forwards, they are not going to be too happy. Sh*t doesn't roll downhill with the Suns. It splatters uphill.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Didn't the Suns sign IT, and IT sign with the Suns, as insurance for Bledsoe either not being with the Suns or, if he were, not able to play all-out for a full season?

Situation 1 did not happen. Situation 2 remains to be seen. Again.

Even if Horny can play all three Point Guards for 32 minutes at the Point & Shooting Guard positions, only two can start and two can finish. One or two of them are going to be pissed every night.

As well as all of our Shooting Guards riding the bench. And if they are defending Small Forwards, they are not going to be too happy. Sh*t doesn't roll downhill with the Suns. It splatters uphill.

No, they didn't and no he didn't. Well, that's if you choose to believe them and him. Both sides stated emphatically that Bledsoe was a non-issue, that they believed Eric would re-sign in Phoenix. Keep in mind, Thomas signed very early in the process and at the time no one appeared to expect the long waiting period we just went through. If you opt to believe in the speculation instead then I guess you could say he was either Bledsoe insurance or proof that we were not interested in keeping Goran (which was the other big piece of speculation).

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Didn't the Suns sign IT, and IT sign with the Suns, as insurance for Bledsoe either not being with the Suns or, if he were, not able to play all-out for a full season?

No, the Suns made it plain that they signed Thomas so they could constently have two attacking, ball handling guards on the court at all time. That is why I and others repeatedly pointed out that letting Bledsoe walk would not make the Suns a more traditional lineup, instead they'd get even smaller.

And given the contract the Suns gave Bledsoe it should remove any question if the Suns were even remotely considering letting Bledsoe go. It was never in the cards at any point. The only question was how much money they'd have to cough up.

 

[Mainstreet]

My recollection of the reasons for signing IT agree with AzStevenCal and Phrazbit. There will be occasions where the Suns may only have one attacking PG on the court due to fouls, substitution and such. Still this is a great position to have.