PRE-SEASON- Sonics @ Suns Game Thread

elindholm

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I saw the game on NBATV, so here are my thoughts:

The Suns moved the ball well and got good shots. The shots weren't in the paint, so they didn't get to the foul line. But good shots are good shots, and the Suns should be able to make their share most nights. They won't have a low-post game without Stoudemire, but oh well. Marion showed a little bit of one, with some very quick turnaround shot-put kinds of things, but that probably won't be anything the Suns feature on a regular basis.

The defense was along the lines of what they tried to do last year (when they tried at all, that is) -- get in passing lanes, disrupt what the other teams wants to do, do a lot of switching and spontaneous doubling. They did have a lot of blocks, but many of them were borderline calls that probably would have gone the other way on the road.

From the box score, it looks like the Suns got killed on the offensive glass, but most of Seattle's second shots took place in garbage time. Actually the Suns held their own on the boards just fine.

Jones looks good. He shoots with a lot of confidence and doesn't need much time to get set. From this one game, I don't think he brings a whole lot else to the table -- he's basically a finisher -- but at least I don't remember him getting lit up defensively. Now I see why Andy Graham keeps calling him a "Joe Johnson clone": they actually look like they could be brothers. Jones doesn't have Johnson's smoothness or creativity, but he has more of a bounce in his step.

Bell will bring many of the same things that Richardson did last year, except on a more mellow scale. He shoots fine and has a bit of swagger, and he participated enough in the offense to pick up a handful of assists. He looked clumsy trying to finish on a couple of fast breaks, which isn't a great sign, but the same could be said for Richardson last year. His defense is overrated. He is above average defensively, but he's not going to lock anyone down.

The coaching staff is apparently pimping Diaw, and Eddie Johnson said they're even thinking of using him at center. Right. There's a lot of wishful thinking going on. Diaw had one nice drive to the basket and is a smart, energetic defender -- the best weak-side shot blocker on the team, with Stoudemire out -- but his shot is terrible and he is shy about taking it. He didn't seem to be a very comfortable ball handler and I don't think he'd be effective running the offense in the traditional sense. He does see the floor well, however, and is a pretty good interior passer. Who knows.

Barbosa looks the same. My guess is that he's the backup PG by default, and the Suns will just have to hope that he won't do much damage.

House was "on fire," according to one way of thinking, and he threw up a lot of junk that went in. I guess he could have a role as a gimmick player on days when no one else can score, but since the roster has plenty of potent, more fundamentally sound scorers, I don't see him getting much playing time.

After Burke's first two minutes, I came to the conclusion that he is hopeless, but gradually he started to grow on me. He can't run or jump, and the one perimeter shot he took didn't look very smooth, but he moves his feet pretty well and has good fundamentals. I'm sure someone like Duncan would take him to school, but if the Suns need him to provide the proverbial six fouls while not being an embarrassment, he could be useful.

Seattle is disorganized under their new coach and they did a lot of things to hurt themselves, but the Suns should get some credit. Overall, I liked what I saw.
 

Chaz

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elindholm said:
From the box score, it looks like the Suns got killed on the offensive glass, but most of Seattle's second shots took place in garbage time. Actually the Suns held their own on the boards just fine.

I thought the defensive rebounding looked better and should be improved this year.

elindholm said:
Jones looks good. He shoots with a lot of confidence and doesn't need much time to get set. From this one game, I don't think he brings a whole lot else to the table -- he's basically a finisher -- but at least I don't remember him getting lit up defensively. Now I see why Andy Graham keeps calling him a "Joe Johnson clone": they actually look like they could be brothers. Jones doesn't have Johnson's smoothness or creativity, but he has more of a bounce in his step.

I think Jones could be the best pure shooter that the Suns have had in a while. EJ mentioned how he moved without the ball and shoot with confidence. I think he can really shine once he gets the kind of shots that Joe and Q were getting last year.


We may be missing the franchise for now in Stoudemire, but they could possibily put together a KJ, EJ, and Chambers type team with Nash, Jones, and Marion. The kind of team that gets 50+ wins but loses in the playoffs. I am not convinced any of these guys are quite that level yet but they could be.

Marion manages to sneak up on you. After the first quarter he played very well. His cuts inside, fastbreaks, and quick post ups could be very effective. I was a bit suprised when I saw 11/17 and 29 points at the end of the game.




Also nobody has mentioned Grant. I thought he moved and shot well and battled under the boards. Hopefully he can stay healthy because from that performance I think he can still play.


Oh, and I like Bell but that bell sound after every basket is going to get old I think
 

jbeecham

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I thought Bell's defense on Ray Allen was about as good as you can expect anyone to guard him. When Barbosa tried to guard Allen, he got wide open shots because Barbosa couldn't get around the screens that Bell did. Raja also draws charges well, kinda like Q did last year.

I agree about James Jones's ball handling......it's definately lacking, but he's a pretty good passer and he can hit a mid-range jumpshot as well as the three. Also, his defense seemed ok.....at least I didn't notice him making mistakes on defense.

I came to pretty much the same conclusion on Diaw as well. His passing skills are really good, but his ball handling is only decent. He didn't drive to the lane as much tonight as he did two games ago when I was at the game. He had about 3 or 4 drives into the lane then like his 1 good drive tonight and he either finished with a layup or dished the ball for an open jumper. I like what he's brought to the team so far.

I was impressed with Brian Grant defending Danny Fortson. The battles those two were having were really fun to watch.

I think Burke actually runs pretty well, he just can't catch the ball or finish if they threw it to him on the fast break. I don't think any of our centers can actually jump at all. Burke shoots a little better than Jake Voshkul and he's not shy about shooting from 20ft out if he's open.

The new guys still have to get used to playing with Nash and always being ready for the pass to come, even when they think there's no way in hell he can get the ball to them......because he finds a way.
 
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thegrahamcrackr

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elindholm said:
Now I see why Andy Graham keeps calling him a "Joe Johnson clone": they actually look like they could be brothers. Jones doesn't have Johnson's smoothness or creativity, but he has more of a bounce in his step.


I don't know if I have ever used those words Eric. My guy that I pimp as a JJ lite is Luke Jackson.

I really do like Jones though. He is just a really smart player. His handle does lack some, but he makes up for with his shot. And you can trust him not to make many stupid mistakes on either end of the floor.

I swear, if Diaw had anything that resembled a shot he would be a borderline allstar. You can tell that the lack of confidence spills over into other parts in his game. If he ever puts it all together he could be a scary player for teams to matchup with....
 

PhxGametime

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I was impressed all the way around... IMO the defense with depth should be like the start of last Season, all year (12 deep) - I'd like to see Tischer play a little, he's probably a little raw still, is NBDL going to be televised? Might need more tapes :)


We'll see during Season how the Team matches up with the Superstars of League but minus injuries I think the Team will make Playoffs... I saw a little bit from each player, that I expected (or that I'd thought I see) and wanted to see... right now, I'd be happy just to get in Playoffs and then by that time with Stat, see how far the Team can go from there.


The Team plays again next Thurs. on Tv (TNT)...
 

PhxGametime

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BbaLL_31 said:
110-80 - D expects to average 110 and if that's what he's sending out, then I'd like to see him make it happen with much improved defense :D


I was close...
 

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Thanks for all the post game critiques. Those of us who are not able to see the game or even listen to it last night appreciate it.

No one has mentioned Kurt Thomas, boxscore only, 1/4 shooting, but 7 rebounds and 3 blocks in 20 minutes sounds decent. Any comments on his play?

Reading the Tribune article, it is nice to see that the Suns won with Nash only "chipping in", not having to put up big numbers.
 

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Suns Clobber Sonics

PHOENIX, Oct. 21 (Ticker) -- If the Phoenix Suns are going to overcome Amare Stoudemire's absence, they will need plenty of efforts like this one from Shawn Marion.

Marion scored 29 points in 29 minutes to power the Suns to a 113-81 rout of the Seattle SuperSonics in preseason action.

The team's leading scorer last season with a 26.0 average, Stoudemire will be out until February following left knee surgery earlier this month, leaving a mammoth hole on Phoenix's frontline.

If Marion can improve on his 19.4 scoring average, the Suns may be able to avoid a significant drop from last season's Western Conference-high 62 wins. He shot 11-of-17 (65 percent) on Friday and had four of his team's nine steals before sitting out the entire fourth quarter.

James Jones, who figures to spell Marion or start at the other forward position, made 3-of-5 3-pointers and finished with 15 points. Eddie House scored 11 points on 5-of-6 shooting, all in the fourth quarter when Phoenix pulled away.

The Suns never trailed after Raja Bell opened the scoring with a 3-pointer. They finished 11-of-24 (46 percent) 3-pointers and had 28 assists to Seattle's nine.

Ray Allen scored 20 points through the first three quarters and Damien Wilkins had 18 overall for the Sonics.​
 

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At least Nash sounded more positive after this game.

Post-Game Quotes


Posted: Oct. 21, 2005SUNS HEAD COACH MIKE D’ANTONI: “We were much more solid everywhere by far, physically and defensively. The biggest thing is that we had 28 assists tonight. We moved the basketball and played great solid defense; we just don’t want to take any steps backward. The players took [losses] it to heart. A lot of people did a lot of things tonight, like Boris Diaw having eight assists in 22 minutes. Shawn [Marion] had 29 points and the game was pretty solid.”



SUNS FORWARD SHAWN MARION (19 PTS, 4 REBS): “We came out running and playing Phoenix Suns basketball tonight. This is by far the best preseason game we’ve played. For the most part everyone was helping each other out and being where we were supposed to be at. We played well in spurts the other night, but we came out to make a conscious effort to play better tonight. I was trying to get the team going and play well on both the defensive and offensive end. We got a good rhythm going and guys we’re finding me.”



SUNS GUARD STEVE NASH (9 PTS, 7 ASSTS): “We were more motivated since we had such a poor performance at Golden State the other night, so we got that out of our system. It’s important for us to keep building on this game. We did a good job tonight defensively. It was an emphasis for us after the way we played the other night. We picked it up a little bit, but defense is going to be something we’ll have to work on all year long. If we play with the energy we played with tonight, we’ll be good.”



SONICS HEAD COACH BOB WEISS: “I got to give them credit; they played a great basketball game. They shot the ball well from the outside. They made great cuts, great reads on our double teams and switches. I thought they did a good job defensively. They doubled us and didn’t give us many outlets. When you are a little off, you can get beat by a team pretty bad like this and we were more than a little off.

“Damien Wilkins had a good night, plays hard and makes things happen. Ray hit some shots to keep us in it early, but just too much of the same thing, too many penetrations, and too many throw-out kicks.”



SONICS GUARD RAY ALLEN (20 PTS): “I think this is the first time since training camp we got put in a situation where we got to play, we had a team really coming at us and I think defensively this was the first time we got tested and we didn’t pass the test.

“We got a great group of guys, everybody’s very anxious and trying to work together for successful wins. It’s good if you lose and everybody’s still on the same page and no one’s coming apart. Sounds crazy, but it’s almost more fun to lose with a bunch of guys because we get closer.”



SONICS GUARD LUKE RIDNOUR (8 PTS, 2 ASSTS): “We got a ways to go (defensively), we showed good signs of good defense and showed signs of not so good defense. But that’s what the preseason is for.”

“We didn’t shoot very well, but you got to give them credit because they played very well.”
 

JCSunsfan

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Interesting having Diaw play center some in small rotations. I know I've been annoyed with the small rotations over the years, but I should not complain when they work.

Bo Outlaw played center for us--even started at the position. His and Diaw's dimensions are almost exactly the same. Diaw might actually be a little heavier. Diaw has better hands, is a better passer, better defender except on the block. Bo was a better rebounder. They seem similar in the shot-blocking dept.

Having watched now, Diaw looks like he has the potential of being an "x factor" type of player, that you can throw in to the game and really disrupt based upon where you play him. The 80's Pistons used Rodman that way.

I like what I am seeing from JRJ in the preseason. His shooting prowess seems to be holding up to the hype on him.
 

zett

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My impression of our defense was thrilling, we helped and recovered as well as any suns team I have ever seen before. Kurt thomas was a big key in that, he knows how to sag and when to sag,with out ever giving his man an open look. Our rotation was great and no one looked lost. My only fear is when Amare comes back he will be a weak link on the rotations. I only saw 1 uncontested layup for the sonics all game. :thumbup:

Brian grant was moving very well,and battled Fortson tooth and nail,That was fun to see.
Shawn Marion :shrug: where did he score 29, that was the quietest 29 I ever saw. He is definitly bigger and seemed more confident finishing inside with contact, he didn't get knocked sideways like he usually does when fouled.

Raja looked ok on offense,I think as he gets use to putting up 20 shots a game, he will get better and play with more confidence. His defense I think is going to be contagious, he plays with high energy and works hard, and thats half the battle on defense. I like what I saw!

James jones is a good shooter, he just doesn't have that look of confidence and determination that you see in the great shooters. He doesn't give me confidence in him when I see him shooting, not that my confidence in him means anything. In time maybe it will come.

Tischer showed me absolutly nothing, to hear Leander go on about him, you would think the guys a season away from being an all star.

House didn't suprise me at all, I think he will have about a dozen of those types of games this year. He really has the shooter look and mentality.

Nash looked a bit rusty on his shooting, but was solid as usual on the ball handling end of things.

All in all I think we will be ok until Amare returns. I still think we reach 50 wins and it might be enough to win the pacific division :thumbup:
 

elindholm

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Bo Outlaw played center for us--even started at the position. His and Diaw's dimensions are almost exactly the same.

In my earlier post in this thread, I originally wrote, "I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but Diaw's game struck me as somewhat similar to Bo Outlaw's."

But then I chickened out and deleted it. :lol:
 

JCSunsfan

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elindholm said:
Bo Outlaw played center for us--even started at the position. His and Diaw's dimensions are almost exactly the same.

In my earlier post in this thread, I originally wrote, "I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but Diaw's game struck me as somewhat similar to Bo Outlaw's."

But then I chickened out and deleted it. :lol:

There are some similarities--and some glaring differences.

Bo had a terrible "handle" (as the scouts say). He couldn't catch, and then couldn't hang on to the ball when he did. It seemed like he turned the ball over 50% of the times he touched it in the offensive set.

Diaw, has very good hands.

Preliminary indications seem to be that Diaw is in that class of players that is tremendously athletic, very talented, and strangley flawed--Bo Outlaw, Dennis Rodman etc.
 
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Errntknght

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Observations and thoughts on the game. (I've got it recorded so I'll probably watch it again... maybe have more to say or have to retract things.)

Defense. The Suns were active and alert, getting a good number of blocks in the paint. I couldn't tell what the overall plan was - they fronted some and switched about the right amount and mostly in the right circumstances. Not a lot of double teaming and mostly well done. Raja left Ray Allen to help a couple of times and paid for it. In general he made Ray shoot tough shots but it was not what you'd call lockdown D. He took one charge and Nash came close enough to taking one to get the call. The team got at least two other offensive fouls.

One thing that stood out was that they rotated well to guys that were coming open close to the hoop - that was much better than last year.

Overall, it was quite encouraging - everyone was involved and the teamwork was good for so many new players this early in the year. Seattle seemed to get rather frustrated and their offense deteriorated as the game went on so I think it wasn't just that they were having an off game.

Offense. The best thing was that were not content to just shoot jumpers and bomb away from behind the arc. There was good movement - even some along the baseline. And some off-ball screens - KT was the most active one in that regard, which didn't come as a surprise. Marion was a good deal more active without the ball than I have seen him in years - and it paid off. Yes, actually cutting through the paint. Raja moved well and Eddie Johnson said that JJones was moving very well but I didn't see that much from him. I trust EJ, though.

They didn't use the pick & pop to any great extent. They were using a high screen but mainly Nash used it to get manuevering space. Marion posted at least once and so did JJones. The ran the old 'give and go' a couple of times to good effect. Decent recognition of mismatches... better than last year.

The transition game wasn't up to last year but they did fair with the secondary break opportunities. One thing was that KT didn't shoot well in pull up situations, missing the two chances he had from around 16 feet. Probably been years since he had such shots.

When Nash was out we had even less transition game - in fact, it didn't seem that they were even trying to get it going.

Brian Grant was moving like he has healthy legs and he should give us some inside scoring. I have to confess that while reading and saying Brian Grant I have been imagining Horace Grant - it was a pleasant surprise to discover my error. I don't recall Brian actually scoring inside in the game but he did get two foul shots from attempting to.

The team did go super small for a while with Diaw playing center... when I said that was a possibility a couple of weeks ago the only person who responded to it said that it would absolutely never happen. Dang, I should have rememebered who that way so I could rub it in. It may be a trifle early to do it yet since this is just preseason but I do think we'll see it at times in the real games. It could prove to be a good diversionary tactic when Nash goes out of the game.

I was impressed by Diaw's playmaking - his eight assists in the game are truly indicative. I suspect they'll have to put him on the floor whenever Nash is out to keep the half court offense perking.

The Suns only got to the FT line 16 times which doesn't sound great but Seattle only had 21 FTA so the disparity was nothing like the other games. I think the refs were just letting things go.
 

JCSunsfan

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Errntknght said:
Overall, it was quite encouraging - everyone was involved and the teamwork was good for so many new players this early in the year. Seattle seemed to get rather frustrated and their offense deteriorated as the game went on so I think it wasn't just that they were having an off game.

The team seems to have more basketball smarts. Bell, Diaw, and Jones all seem to have the ability to implement offensive and defensive schemes

Errntknght said:
Brian Grant was moving like he has healthy legs and he should give us some inside scoring. I have to confess that while reading and saying Brian Grant I have been imagining Horace Grant - it was a pleasant surprise to discover my error.

Didn't Horace play, like 20 years ago, back in the 80's. We'll call it a "Senior Moment." Old guys. BTW, I turned 43 this week. Best birthday present ever: My son shot his first Elk on my bday.

Errntknght said:
The team did go super small for a while with Diaw playing center... when I said that was a possibility a couple of weeks ago the only person who responded to it said that it would absolutely never happen. Dang, I should have rememebered who that way so I could rub it in. It may be a trifle early to do it yet since this is just preseason but I do think we'll see it at times in the real games. It could prove to be a good diversionary tactic when Nash goes out of the game.

I was impressed by Diaw's playmaking - his eight assists in the game are truly indicative. I suspect they'll have to put him on the floor whenever Nash is out to keep the half court offense perking.

I guess that means that Diaw is officially a 5 position type of player. I wouldn't mind seeing him as a "point forward" with two sg's and a center, when Nash is resting. He's one of those players that can really be effective if used correctly by the coach.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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JCSunsfan said:
Didn't Horace play, like 20 years ago, back in the 80's. We'll call it a "Senior Moment." Old guys. BTW, I turned 43 this week. Best birthday present ever: My son shot his first Elk on my bday.


I dont think he retired until a few years ago. He was on the Bulls team that beat the Suns in the finals I am sure you remember.

IIRC he spent some time with the Lakers during their run, and I know he was on the Magic while Rivers was there (they got in a fight).
 

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