Predict which free agents the Suns sign

[Phrazbit]

There is a cap hold for any free agent we have bird rights to, including RFAs. Its (I think) 150% of what they made the previous year. So Bledsoe's cap hold is no where near what his actual salary will be next year, same with Tucker, both would allow us to well exceed the cap if we spend the rest of our space to the limit. However, Channing Frye's cap hold is obviously well over what he would make next season... but its safe to assume the Suns would not hesitate to renounce his Bird Rights and clear the cap hold should they have the opportunity to make a big move.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jeez... it's not a violation. Teams do this every year with their own free agents. They can go over the cap to sign their own with bird rights and so it only makes sense to sign outside guys first. It's the system and how it's designed to work. The Suns have zero reason to withhold any news of an agreement with Bledsoe. They can sign it at any time from the 10th on. The Suns have known what he wants in a contract and all they had to do was call him last night and say, we agree to your demands. We can sign on the 10th. They can withhold the news (not sure why they would) if they want too. Nothing in that scenario is a loophole or slight of hand and it's not even remotely like my issue with a bunch of stars taking far below their market value in order to build a super team and deny competition within the league. Nice try.

When did these stars take "far below" their market value? LeBron and Bosh could have signed contracts starting at 16 million in year 1 back in 2010 and took 15. Same with Wade. Stars taking 5 million less per year I could see an argument, but 1 million dollars? That's far below?

And this whole idea that they did this to "deny competition" just doesn't make sense. The Celtics had a Big 3 (and some could argue a big 4 with Rondo) who just went to 2 of the last 3 finals. In the west, you had the two time defending Lakers who had a stacked team with what amounted to a big 4 with Kobe and Gasol who were first team All-NBA, a 6th man of the year, a stud C and Artest who was a major FA signing in 2009. And you had the Thunder who had two super young superstars, with another guy in Harden who looked like he could be a star in the making. Maybe, just maybe the LeBron, Wade and Bosh (all of whom had taken beatings at the hands of the Celtics Big 3/4) looked around the league with three stacked teams in the Lakers/Celtics and a young up and coming dynamo in OKC and the thought...damn...we better be pretty damn good if I'm going to ever beat one of those teams? That not trying to "deny competition" to me. that looks like trying to compete with already established title contenders.

 

[JS22]

Realistically?

Bledsoe, Frye, Hayward, and a decent role player or two.

People are going to be piiiiiiiissssseeeedddd when Hayward gets 12 million or more.

 

[KloD]

When did these stars take "far below" their market value? LeBron and Bosh could have signed contracts starting at 16 million in year 1 back in 2010 and took 15. Same with Wade. Stars taking 5 million less per year I could see an argument, but 1 million dollars? That's far below?

I never said they did. If you'll recall the other 5 billion threads on this I said my issue isn't with what has happened, but where I see it going. I don't want a team USA being a team in the NBA. It's pretty simple. You don't care, I do. Can't you just leave it at that? You can think of me as a hypocrite and say I'm ok with things that I don't agree are the same, I don't agree with you and I won't lose sleep over it. It's ok.

And this whole idea that they did this to "deny competition" just doesn't make sense. The Celtics had a Big 3 (and some could argue a big 4 with Rondo) who just went to 2 of the last 3 finals. In the west, you had the two time defending Lakers who had a stacked team with what amounted to a big 4 with Kobe and Gasol who were first team All-NBA, a 6th man of the year, a stud C and Artest who was a major FA signing in 2009. And you had the Thunder who had two super young superstars, with another guy in Harden who looked like he could be a star in the making. Maybe, just maybe the LeBron, Wade and Bosh (all of whom had taken beatings at the hands of the Celtics Big 3/4) looked around the league with three stacked teams in the Lakers/Celtics and a young up and coming dynamo in OKC and the thought...damn...we better be pretty damn good if I'm going to ever beat one of those teams? That not trying to "deny competition" to me. that looks like trying to compete with already established title contenders.

Sigh... read my reply above. I NEVER said what I see the league becoming has happened yet. I said over and over again that I see it trending that way and I don't like it. I have no desire to watch a league if and when it does become that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I thought it was a violation but I really don't know, hence the reason I posed it as a question.

Steve

Yes. I got that. I was just trying to answer. I don't think anyone is arguing with anyone here.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes. I got that. I was just trying to answer. I don't think anyone is arguing with anyone here.

Agreed, didn't mean to come across otherwise.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

I never said they did. If you'll recall the other 5 billion threads on this I said my issue isn't with what has happened, but where I see it going. I don't want a team USA being a team in the NBA. It's pretty simple. You don't care, I do. Can't you just leave it at that? You can think of me as a hypocrite and say I'm ok with things that I don't agree are the same, I don't agree with you and I won't lose sleep over it. It's ok.



Sigh... read my reply above. I NEVER said what I see the league becoming has happened yet. I said over and over again that I see it trending that way and I don't like it. I have no desire to watch a league if and when it does become that.

Ah...I thought you had a problem with both what happened back in 2010 and what's happening now. That actually clears a lot up for me. That being said, the thing you fear...guys taking much less then market value and creating Team USA seems totally unrealistic. If there was proof or reports that Melo was going to join that team for five or ten million dollars, I could see your point. Or if LeBron was going to take another pay cut, I could see your point. But neither of those are happening. In fact, everyone's saying they both want MAX deals, which isn't surprising because all of the biggest superstars want that and it isn't going to change. And is Wade taking a deal below market value here...or is he actually taking what he's REALLY worth? Because if you tell me Wades worth the 20 million he could have signed on for, you weren't watching the Finals. Same with Bosh. More then anything, it looks like the Heat players have realized what they're actually worth and how talented they are and know it's not good enough (which it obviously wasn't). What should they do in that situation. Just say "oh well" and continue to get worse? All the talk now is that the Heat are only going to have money to add some solid role players, not a Carmelo. So, how is adding a Gortat or an Ariza to a team that just got embarrassed in the Finals trying to stamp out competition?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sigh... read my reply above. I NEVER said what I see the league becoming has happened yet. I said over and over again that I see it trending that way and I don't like it. I have no desire to watch a league if and when it does become that.

i guess i just don't see the evidence of this trend. Now, if all three guys (including the best player in the game bar none) took massive paycuts to create a super-duper team and Melo was on his way there also at a discounted rate, then I see your point. But apparently, that's not what's happening. Bron is looking for the MAX, and Bosh and Wade are basically playing the role of Duncan, knowing that they need to take lower salaries if the team is going to add a couple more solid pieces.

I mean, all reports are pretty much that no one is willing to take a pay cut to join the Heat. why? because NBA players with a chance at their first major payday are pretty much loathe to leave money on the table.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ing-at-12-million/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

 

[Chaz]

But he's restricted and still under contract with us. Only for a year, but still under contract.

Technically the Suns have only made the qualifying offer and therefore have the right of last refusal but he is not under contract. He can sign the qualifying offer, agree to a contract with the Suns, or sign an offer sheet with another team. Those are his only options at this point.

I don't see how a verbal agreement on a contract with the Suns would be a violation of anything considering nothing can be signed until next week anyway.

 

[Chaz]

I also don't understand how players coordinating their free agency or signing for less money is in any way ruining the game or promoting an 'unfair' advantage.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I also don't understand how players coordinating their free agency or signing for less money is in any way ruining the game or promoting an 'unfair' advantage.

agreed. I'm still chuckling at the fact that almost everyone (save a select few) who's been against this has been completely silent when I brought up the fact that JC did something MUCH more underhanded with AC Green and Manning in back to back years when we were in the Barkley title contending days. I mean, that was guys not just taking less money, but minimum contracts to get on our team with handshake deals to guarantee them bigger contracts once we had their Bird rights. Guess what's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander.

 

[KloD]

i guess i just don't see the evidence of this trend. Now, if all three guys (including the best player in the game bar none) took massive paycuts to create a super-duper team and Melo was on his way there also at a discounted rate, then I see your point. But apparently, that's not what's happening. Bron is looking for the MAX, and Bosh and Wade are basically playing the role of Duncan, knowing that they need to take lower salaries if the team is going to add a couple more solid pieces.

I mean, all reports are pretty much that no one is willing to take a pay cut to join the Heat. why? because NBA players with a chance at their first major payday are pretty much loathe to leave money on the table.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ing-at-12-million/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

First, this discussion started before we got any info that you are talking about. All we heard was they were opting out and willing to take more cuts. Second, Yes, if what is being reported now is accurate than maybe it's not trending as much as I previously had thought, but we start with top players getting together and building a "Big 3" and a bunch of vets signing a min. when some of them could have gotten a bit more with other clubs. Next we see the "Big 3" lose in the finals and there's talk of taking pay cuts to get more talent around them. They make room for another "star" to join them. Then what is next? More pay cuts to get a 5th, than a 6th, ect? you don't see it, I do. It may not happen this year or the next two or three, or even with this group of "stars", but I can see with all the other money to be made by top players outside of their salaries, especially when they are winning it all. I can certainly see how easily this can happen. That's been my point all along. The thought makes me cringe and it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. In fact I think it's completely realistic and very possible.

 

[KloD]

I also don't understand how players coordinating their free agency or signing for less money is in any way ruining the game or promoting an 'unfair' advantage.

To each their own. I don't want a team USA and I do think if all the best players decided to take small salaries just to build a super team and win it year after year it would destroy my interest in NBA basketball. Not yours, great. But, mine it would.

 

[KloD]

agreed. I'm still chuckling at the fact that almost everyone (save a select few) who's been against this has been completely silent when I brought up the fact that JC did something MUCH more underhanded with AC Green and Manning in back to back years when we were in the Barkley title contending days. I mean, that was guys not just taking less money, but minimum contracts to get on our team with handshake deals to guarantee them bigger contracts once we had their Bird rights. Guess what's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander.

FYI - I'm done with this conversation. It's gotten beyond old. I've neither hide from my view, nor have I been hypocritical in any way. I've repeated my same point over and over. I'm done. We happen to disagree. Move on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

First, this discussion started before we got any info that you are talking about. All we heard was they were opting out and willing to take more cuts. Second, Yes, if what is being reported now is accurate than maybe it's not trending as much as I previously had thought, but we start with top players getting together and building a "Big 3" and a bunch of vets signing a min. when some of them could have gotten a bit more with other clubs.

but I don't think this isn't really accurate. They didn't get a bunch of impact guys to sign for the minimum. They got Mike Miller who didn't sign for the vet minimum. He signed a 5 year 25 million dollar contract. Same with Haslem who signed a 4 year 20 million dollar contract. They got Battier for cheap, sure, but he was pretty damn old and there's always going to be gravy trainers (like Grant Hill was for the suns, or Payton/Malone were for the Lakers, or Payton was for the Heat when they won their first title with Shaq). That happens a lot.

Next we see the "Big 3" lose in the finals and there's talk of taking pay cuts to get more talent around them. They make room for another "star" to join them.

But...most reports show they AREN'T doing this. We're talking about LeBron take a pay increase and reports are that Wade and Bosh aren't making room for a star, but solid role players at best. What "star" are they going to get with 12 million dollars (at best) to play with? Not only that, but can't we lay to rest the idea that this is even a "Big 3" anymore? Wade isn't close to being a superstar anymore and neither is Bosh.

Then what is next? More pay cuts to get a 5th, than a 6th, ect? you don't see it, I do. It may not happen this year or the next two or three, or even with this group of "stars", but I can see with all the other money to be made by top players outside of their salaries, especially when they are winning it all. I can certainly see how easily this can happen. That's been my point all along. The thought makes me cringe and it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. In fact I think it's completely realistic and very possible.

I don't see this as realistic because your initial hypothesis at the very beginning of the Heat's creation doesn't square with the facts of what happened at the time. And the bottom line is this, with the salary cap in place, and players greed and money above all else, you're just never going to see what you fear. I mean, if you did, why wouldn't we see it now? Why wouldn't Melo already have agree to play with them for 12 million dollars?

Your future view, IMO is based in a faulty memory of the past.

 

[Cheesebeef]

FYI - I'm done with this conversation. It's gotten beyond old. I've neither hide from my view, nor have I been hypocritical in any way. I've repeated my same point over and over. I'm done. We happen to disagree. Move on.

that statement wasn't directed at you. in fact, I specifically said in that statement there were a select few who said they had a problem with what the Suns did and were consistent. I acknowledged that with you in a previous post. But there's a bunch of other people who literally went silent when that question was asked and i'm still curious how they square those two things...not you.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the Suns are waiting to find out if Lebron (through his agent) are in the picture for his services. I hope he does not tie up the Suns hands for too long.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the Suns are waiting to find out if Lebron (through his agent) are in the picture for his services. I hope he does not tie up the Suns hands for too long.

As one of the most vociferous critics of the Heat and your perceived "sleight of hand" actions they did and what you fear they'll do again, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the question I've posed a couple times. Were you okay with JC's sleight of hand to sign AC Green and Danny Manning in back to back years?

 

[Mainstreet]

As one of the most vociferous critics of the Heat and your perceived "sleight of hand" actions they did and what you fear they'll do again, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the question I've posed a couple times. Were you okay with JC's sleight of hand to sign AC Green and Danny Manning in back to back years?

I don't agree with your comparison. Game over.

 

[Chaz]

To each their own. I don't want a team USA and I do think if all the best players decided to take small salaries just to build a super team and win it year after year it would destroy my interest in NBA basketball. Not yours, great. But, mine it would.

I guess I just don't have much expectation about how it is supposed to be. I just watch for entertainment and to see what happens. I won't be happy with the final result of the season until the Suns win it anyway. I do understand the reticence to embrace a 'team of mercenaries' over a developed team that grows together over time. However, as he is one of the most talented players in the history of the league, I would love for Lebron to sign here but as long as he doesn't have another hyped "The Decision" (tm) program I don't particularly care where he signs.

Even the best laid plans can fail. Remember the Laker's superteam with Malone and Payton? Or the 'Dream Team' that was the 2011 Philadelphia Eagles?
Even the recent Heat teams are only 2/2 in finals appearances.

Like you said, to each their own.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't agree with your comparison.

what is it about the comparison that you disagree with? This is a legitmate question I have for people trying to understand how you see the difference because to me, signing the best FA (in back to back years) to one year, one million dollar deals with under the table promises to get them much bigger contracts one year later is the very definition of sleight of hand.

 

[BC867]

Were you okay with JC's sleight of hand to sign AC Green and Danny Manning in back to back years?

You said it. JC's sleight of hand. He was the GM. That was his job.

...........................................vs..............................................

LeBron. He was the player. It's not his place to put a team together.
Especially while playing on another team and recruiting a player from
yet another team. That is the difference! Did Chamberlain ever do
that? Or Russell ever do that? Or Michael ever do that? Or AC Green
or Danny Manning?

 

[Cheesebeef]

You said it. JC's sleight of hand. He was the GM. That was his job.

So a GM using sleight of hand to do everything he could to win is okay. The Players who played for AWFUL GMs who were clueless shouldn't have the ability to do everything they can to win. I guess I don't understand why it's okay for management to do it and players can't. You can keep saying "It's his job" but when the players are playing for GMs who are absolute failures at their job, why shouldn't they take matters into their own hands? Should LeBron have basically just said...well, I'm stuck in Cleveland with a horrendous GM and there's just nothing I can do about it because it's the GM's job to create the team? If that's the case, then you have an issue with FA at large. And if you want to go back to a league where players have a restriction to their right of trade, you've got problems with the way our country does business.

...........................................vs..............................................

LeBron. He was the player. It's not his place to put a team together.
Especially while playing on another team and recruiting a player from
yet another team. That is the difference! Did Chamberlain ever do
that? Or Russell ever do that? Or Michael ever do that? Or AC Green
or Danny Manning?

You keep saying LeBron did this, but you completely ignore a couple things. First, there were a ton of reports out there that LeBron was lobbying people to come to Cleveland and they all told him no freaking way. Second, LeBron was a FA when the Big Three came together. Did they talk about playing together one day? Probably, but if you think those guys are the only ones in the history of the league talking pipe dreams about playing together at some point, I think you're sorely mistaken. Third, and most importantly, you completely ignore Pat Riley played in the creation of the Big 3. None of this would have been possible without Riley doing two things to make the Heat attractive. He had to a) draft Dwayne Wade and b) shed all salary with the hopes of getting Bosh and LeBron, which if you remember, was deemed as pipe dream when that off-season started. Hell, going into the Decision, people STILL didn't know what was going to happen. In other words, this was as much Riley's plan as it was LeBron's (and considering there were reports that LeBron was trying to get other people to play in Cleveland and was also looking at the Bulls, Knicks and Clippers, there's literally nothing that validates what you're saying with 100% accuracy as you've implied).

 

[SweetD]

Bledsoe

I could see a run at Hayward or Parsons.

Davis maybe an option at PF

No big names at all.

 

[Errntknght]

Bledsoe

I could see a run at Hayward or Parsons.

Davis maybe an option at PF

No big names at all.

Hayward's performance last year was way below what you expect from a max player. Horny's endorsement is the only thing he had going for him, IMO, and its not enough for me. Chandler Parson's performance was much more impressive but paying him double or triple what PJ will get doesn't get me excited either.


Whats necessary is to fix the rebounding at PF - Markieff is better than Frye but he's still substanially subpar and his defence is worse than Frye's.