Preseason: Jazz @ Suns
- Thread starter Mainstreet
- Start date
elindholm
edited for content
It depends on why they are in the "combo guard" category though. Curry and Westbrook are there because they have both PG and SG skills. Bledsoe is there because he lacks the full skill set for either position. It's too soon to tell about Knight, but I suspect he's in the same situation.
It isn't that Bledsoe is a "combo guard," but that he's out of position no matter where you try to line him up.
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
you are right.
Beverly or Terry/Harden, Irving/Shumpert, Lillard/McCollum, Barea/Ellis ,Westbrook/Waiters, Holiday/Gordon, Rose/Butler
I doubt that anyone would call Steph Curry a stereotypical PG either.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
That's exactly right! Neither can actually run the offense, and neither one of them can play off the ball with any kind of success. It's a problem that just exacerbates itself because not only are you stuck being half-assed at the PG position, but you are forced to be half-assed at two different positions.
My hypothesis is that the Suns system essentially crates the problem of the two combo guards making each other less effective. This is less true of Bledsoe, as he tends to have the ball in his hands most often, so it affects him less than it affected Dragic, IT, and will affect Knight. I know it's a cliche, but your players should complement each other and make each other better. Suns' system does the opposite. I guess we'll have to see what kind of a year Bledsoe and Knight have and also how IT and Dragic do on their new teams to see if I am on to something, or if it's just my perception. It will also be interesting to see how Knight does this year as opposed to how well he played for his old team as the only "PG." I didn't watch Milwaukee enough to be certain, but my perception is that they ran fast-break a lot. Bledsoe tends to prefer to slowly walk the ball up the court unless HE has a clear path to the hoop. I don't think that will work with Knight any better than it worked with Dragic.
Disclaimer:
I really haven't watched Knight all that much, so my perception of him may be inaccurate or extremely limited.
Chaz
observationist
Ok so now we can see what the real issue is.
It isn't really anything to do with a two PG or two combo guard system. It is that people don't think Bledsoe or Knight are very good players. If that is the case then just say that. Don't hide behind "it's the system" that doesn't work.
Just like people said a fast break quick shooting team can't win a championship. Any system works if the players are good enough to make plays at both ends of the court.
It isn't really anything to do with a two PG or two combo guard system. It is that people don't think Bledsoe or Knight are very good players. If that is the case then just say that. Don't hide behind "it's the system" that doesn't work.
Just like people said a fast break quick shooting team can't win a championship. Any system works if the players are good enough to make plays at both ends of the court.
elindholm
edited for content
It's a combination. If Bledsoe were the same caliber player but more of a true PG, then the Suns could combine him with a real SG and probably be better off. So it's partly that he's not a good offensive player, but also partly that, because he lacks a position, he ends up weakening the Suns at two positions instead of one.
I don't know enough about Knight yet to make that claim about him.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Posts
- 120,024
- Reaction score
- 60,586
I agree with this point. Bledsoe and Knight's job is more than drive the ball to the hoop.
Phrazbit
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Posts
- 20,429
- Reaction score
- 11,578
Dragic, Bledsoe and Thomas each put up the best numbers of their careers in this system... but now we're going to argue that the setup is somehow limiting to the guards that play in it.
There is some real grasping at straws going on here.
The guard play was the only thing that kept the team competitive the last two years, the front court play has been well below the leagues average and we've had well below league average players at the positions. It remains to be seen if the current set of guards can function well together in the system, I honestly have no idea, but continuing to pretend this system has been a bane to the guards the play in it is downright comical.
There is some real grasping at straws going on here.
The guard play was the only thing that kept the team competitive the last two years, the front court play has been well below the leagues average and we've had well below league average players at the positions. It remains to be seen if the current set of guards can function well together in the system, I honestly have no idea, but continuing to pretend this system has been a bane to the guards the play in it is downright comical.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Posts
- 120,024
- Reaction score
- 60,586
I think the guards have to want to play in the system Hornacek has set up. This season we get to see how it works because all three point guards, Bledsoe, Knight and Price seem committed to making it work. This was not so much the case with Dragic and Thomas.
elindholm
edited for content
Selfish play always looks good on the stat sheet.
Phrazbit
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Posts
- 20,429
- Reaction score
- 11,578
They won 48 games with Dragic, Bledsoe and a bunch of guys who should be 8th men on depth charts. Selfish, unselfish... whatever, the guards and their high level of play propped up a very flawed front court.
I'm not making any promises about this year because I don't have any clue if Knight is going to mesh or not. But the "combo guard" system that people love to whine about did anything but hold the team back the last two years.
elindholm
edited for content
No they didn't. They won most of those 48 games with Dragic or Bledsoe, not with both. Pairing them long-term proved to be a disaster.
Phrazbit
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Posts
- 20,429
- Reaction score
- 11,578
Oh come on, really? Yes, they did.
They went 28-15 with Bledsoe and Dragic and went only one game over .500 when Dragic was alone.
elindholm
edited for content
I was almost certain that Dragic was out for some of the 43 games Bledsoe played, but if my memory is wrong, I apologize. I can't figure out a way to check without looking at every box score individually, which I don't have time for. So let's go ahead and assume that I'm misremembering.
Phrazbit
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Posts
- 20,429
- Reaction score
- 11,578
He was out for like 3 games early and I think they went 2-1.
Signing Thomas was overkill, but even then, they did much much better with the group together than apart.
The problem the last two years was the front court, not the guard play. I don't know that it will ring true this year. The front court looks significantly improved and I don't know if Knight is going to fit.
Errntknght
Registered User
Phraze is right about the WL records, I recall that from prior discussions. But we were a thin team and when Bledsoe was out we were missing our second best player so you'd expect a falling off regardless of what system we played. Also, when Bled was out was when Goran played the best ball of his career, giving him his career high stats. So its kind of mixed bag - rather than either being entirely correct. Other things muddied the waters a bit, too - like Plumlee playing great in the early season and turning to crap about the time Bledsoe went out; Frye having his best year ever, as did Green; Markieff driving to the hoop in most games, unlike any other time in his career.
I agree with Sir Stephen about one point and thats that our 2 combo guards stand around a lot when their partner is handling the ball but thats on Hornacek's coaching, more than anything else. Hopefully, it won't matter much this year - assuming the team, the 4's in particular, keep the floor spread with good 3 pt shooting. When the floor is spread what you want is the guards driving to the hoop off pick & rolls/pops and other screens or isolations. The spread floor will also open up space for TJ to do his maneuver, too. (Good three point shooting from the guards also helps to spread the floor as defenders can't freely sag off them, of course.)
I think one of the key indicators is going to be the rate T.J. scores when he's on the floor - he should be over 20 pts per 36, a 50% increase from last year. If he's not then the guards are not getting him the ball enough - or the floor isn't well spread.
I agree with Sir Stephen about one point and thats that our 2 combo guards stand around a lot when their partner is handling the ball but thats on Hornacek's coaching, more than anything else. Hopefully, it won't matter much this year - assuming the team, the 4's in particular, keep the floor spread with good 3 pt shooting. When the floor is spread what you want is the guards driving to the hoop off pick & rolls/pops and other screens or isolations. The spread floor will also open up space for TJ to do his maneuver, too. (Good three point shooting from the guards also helps to spread the floor as defenders can't freely sag off them, of course.)
I think one of the key indicators is going to be the rate T.J. scores when he's on the floor - he should be over 20 pts per 36, a 50% increase from last year. If he's not then the guards are not getting him the ball enough - or the floor isn't well spread.
OP
OP
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Posts
- 120,024
- Reaction score
- 60,586
I agree the Suns guard play was the only thing that gave the Suns the extra push to win games the last couple of seasons. Len, Markieff and Tucker were not going to carry the Suns. Last season the PG situation came crashing down when Dragic wanted to be the lead PG (not a SG) and Thomas wanted to be a starter. The hope this season is that all the PGs appear to be on board and the Suns have a much improved and deeper frontcourt.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
That's not it. I have no problem saying someone is not a good player, but this is a different scenario. I think Bledsoe is a fine player, as he can defend, drive to the hoop, run the fast break, do a whole bunch of stuff. He just can't run the offense effectively, and he isn't good enough of a shooter to play off guard effectively. He doesn't have the SG size either. Similar thing can be said about any of the other guards we've had. Dragic is probably more of a point guard, but he doesn't know how to play off the ball. He probably shoots a better percentage off the dribble than he does in a catch and shoot situations. IT is probably the best shooter out of the four of them, and he can even run the offense if he doesn't have to share the ball, but he is severely undersized. Knight seems to be a bit of a cross between Dragic and Bledsoe, though I haven't seen enough of him.
Paul Milsap is a fine player, as is Kenneth Faried, but if you are playing the two of them together, your team is going to be in real trouble. They just don't fit with each other. Rashard Lewis and Antawn Jamison would be the same scenario. They were both fine players with great careers, but neither one had a position, and they just wouldn't have played as well together. I suppose it would be easier to hide that with tweener forwards than it is with the two combo guards.
Chaz
observationist
Dragic and IT are gone. Let it go.
This is a new year and a new team.
Last year was a disaster for a lot of reasons but mostly team chemistry and a leadership void. The best thing about last year is it is in the past.
I don't know how good they will be but I think they will be better.
This is a new year and a new team.
Last year was a disaster for a lot of reasons but mostly team chemistry and a leadership void. The best thing about last year is it is in the past.
I don't know how good they will be but I think they will be better.
Chaplin
Better off silent
All this posturing means nothing until you see the games. Unless everyone here is convinced Bledsoe cannot improve or alter his game to fit what we're trying to do. I don't know if he has, but he's earned the benefit of the doubt, especially at this point in time.
JCSunsfan
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2002
- Posts
- 22,115
- Reaction score
- 6,551
I don't understand why local fans dislike Bledsoe so much. Maybe it's just the level of expectation after Steve Nash. Bledsoe is commonly ranked in the top 10 pgs in the league. Last year he even distributed pretty well, he just did not have enough scorers to get the assists.
I think it has to do with more than Nash. Phoenix has been spoiled by excellent PG's like KJ, Kidd, and Nash. Bledsoe reminds me of Marbury much more than any of the other 3 franchise PG's the team has had in the 90's and 00's. I think a lot of people view him turning out like Marbury at best and really that would make the team a 7-8th seed and first round exit at best. Sure he's a good player but he's not the best player on a contending team and without a PG who can run an offense better they would need a Anthony Davis/Kevin Durant type once in a generation player to pair with him to be better than a first round loser each year.
Errntknght
Registered User
I think we developed a visceral dislike of Bled during his long holdout the summer before last coupled with the fact that he didn't appear to be truly committed to this team during the prior season. For some people there was also the fact that Goran had to share the limelight with him. Once the dislike is in place people will find something to complain about.
This past summer he has appeared to be as committed to the team as you can hope for in a professional player who isn't a hometown boy. He's also said that he believes in Hornacek's plan - I can't give a quote though. Anyway, I'm warming up to him now and probably a good number of others are as well. Still it will help a lot to see him exemplifying good teamwork - and the team winning lots and lots of games.
I don't think you can attribute Eric's dearth of assists to the shooters around him as the team shot at almost exactly the league average. Our overall style does not tend to produce an abundance of assists for one thing. Anyway I didn't see failures to make assists when they were there but what I did see was a high number of turnovers. He needs to bring the number down - as does Knight - but it is unlikely to happen quickly. The team does not run many set plays so their passes come from split second decisions. As they get more and more familiar with their teammates it will hopefully improve slowly.
JCSunsfan
ASFN Icon
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2002
- Posts
- 22,115
- Reaction score
- 6,551
What championship team DOESN'T have a Dave/Durant/Curry type of player? This team is still in the building process. I am not sure who would expect Bledsoe to be the #2 (or even #3) player on a contender.
He is still the best player we have. I am not sure how ripping your best player, because he is not a better player, would help your sanity. This team still needs to add better players, either from without or from within. That is not Bledsoe's fault.
I agree with you, I think that his lack of skills and the fact that he is the best player on the team but probably wouldn't be one of the 3 best players on a title team is why more casual fans dislike him. He's not Nash, KJ, or Kidd either, like I said. He's a different type of player. Also like Errntknght said a lot of people started to dislike him during his long contract negotiations as well as him being seen as supplanting Goran here. I'd much rather have Bledsoe than Goran but most fans preferred Goran because he was around during the Nash years and was seen as more of a homegrown talent. It's hard to sway the opinions of people once they started disliking him for various, I believe unfounded, reasons. Eric also has more of a reserved personality so a lot people take his silence as something more than it is.
Similar threads
