Probably unpopular here regarding this regime…

[Chopper0080]

They would help us be better/get worse draft picks and have less cap flexibility.

Not the goal right now.

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I hear that argument, but I believe both the cap implications and the win total impact are overblown. Very few defensive NFL players are worth even a point on the spread. You could have both Murphy and Allen and still be a losing team, but having them may keep you somewhat respectable in the meantime.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I posted this several months ago but it is still valid today:

I think what we are seeing is Monti following in the Belichick model of building a team.

#1: Quick turnover of the roster from the previous regime. By year two of Belichick taking over the Patriots, only 4 starters remained from the previous regime {C Damien Woody (Selected in the 1st round the season before Belichick arrived), MLB Tedy Bruschi, CB Ty Law and DE Willie McGinest}. Belichick wasted no time letting LB Andy Katzenmoyer (the other 1st rounder selected with Woody in 1999) go after just one season with Belichick and only two seasons on the Patriots. Belichick's first year was all about installing a culture and if you weren't all in you were out!

I think we are seeing a lot of this right now with the Cardinals. I expect the 2024 Cardinals starters to have only a handful of starters left from the previous regime (Kyler, Hump, McBride, Baker, Thompson, Collins). It also appears that Monti isn't afraid of letting former 1st round LB Simmons go if he doesn't live up to expectations.

#2: Belichick built the core of his team through the draft and seemingly every year he would hit at least one home run. In Belichick's first year he had 20 rookies on the roster at training camp. It all started by selecting future HOF Tom Brady in the 6th round of his first draft. Belichick followed that up with selecting HOF Richard Seymour in 2001.

Monti is clearly rebuilding the core through the draft. Too early to tell how well he will hit on his draft picks.

#3: Moving on from overpriced players. Belichick was shrewd when it came time for players who were FAs looking for a new big contract. Once your value no longer matched your salary it was time to say goodbye.

Zach Allen, DHop, Chosen Anderson, all were let go because their value no longer fit with the salary that they earned, wanted or got on the open market.

#4: Willing to spend when a FA fits. Gilmore comes to mind as does Randy Moss and Devin McCourty. However the one year that comes to mind where Belichick made a big splash was in 2001 which was year two for him in NE. With that FA class Belichick landed the amazing haul of: LB Mike Vrabel, CB Terrell Buckley, G Mike Compton, LB Bryan Cox, LB Roman Phifer, QB Damon Huard, LB Larry Izzo, WR David Patten, FB Marc Edwards, DE Anthony Pleasant, and RB Antowain Smith.

Much like when Belichick made Devin McCourty the highest paid safety in the league I could see Monti doing something similar with Baker here shortly. Also I expect 2024 to be a big year for the Cardinals signing FAs. From there on Monti will probably target 1 or 2 FAs a year that fit what he is looking for.

 

[vince56]

Just throwing this out there about Zach Allen. Our new center absolutely shot-put him a few weeks ago.

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[RON_IN_OC]

I posted this several months ago but it is still valid today:

Nostradamus

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think we are seeing a lot of this right now with the Cardinals. I expect the 2024 Cardinals starters to have only a handful of starters left from the previous regime (Kyler, Hump, McBride, Baker, Thompson, Collins). It also appears that Monti isn't afraid of letting former 1st round LB Simmons go if he doesn't live up to expectations.

Like I said several months ago, Monti wouldn't be afraid to move on from Simmons if he didn't fit.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Just throwing this out there about Zach Allen. Our new center absolutely shot-put him a few weeks ago.

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That video never gets old.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I posted this several months ago but it is still valid today:

Are we still waiting for the first example of someone successfully aping the "New England Way"? I know it started with Pioli and KC and in Tennessee as well, but I'm genuinely curious if the system was ever recreated anywhere without Brady/Belicheck.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The "blow it to smithereens" crowd still hasn't given any explanation as to how we're going to acquire the necessary talent to compete in...what, 3 years? It doesn't have to be this way in the NFL!

Yes we have. THE DRAFT. You acquire the majority of your core building blocks in the draft and supplement those players using free agency and the trades. Not the other way around.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Are we still waiting for the first example of someone successfully aping the "New England Way"? I know it started with Pioli and KC and in Tennessee as well, but I'm genuinely curious if the system was ever recreated anywhere without Brady/Belicheck.

I think "the Patriot" way we've seen attempted with other teams has been more to do with guys like Patricia, McDaniels, etc trying to coach like BB (without BB's cache) not necessarily FO and roster management and that's what I think MCD is more referring to...at least that's what I got from most of his post.

 

[oaken1]

I just think the Pats with Brady and Belicheck were sui generis and can’t be used as a reference. Scads of former NE coaches and front office folks seeded around the league have failed to replicate the model.

right? They started with a team built by Tuna...and were led by the G.O.A.T.
Stacking the roster with guys who would be the worst starter on a good team only works when the leadership executes the system flawlesssly.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Yes we have. THE DRAFT. You acquire the majority of your core building blocks in the draft and supplement those players using free agency and the trades. Not the other way around.

Ok - using the draft as the majority of player acquisition, how long do you anticipate it'll take to get the requisite # of above average starters from the draft? We're talking 3+ years at this point?

 

[Chopper0080]

I think "the Patriot" way we've seen attempted with other teams has been more to do with guys like Patricia, McDaniels, etc trying to coach like BB (without BB's cache) not necessarily FO and roster management and that's what I think MCD is more referring to...at least that's what I got from most of his post.

I don't believe it has either on the field or in the front office. The issue becomes that you have to earn the right to treat talented players and the roster as a whole like Belichick did. You can't do the things he did without titles as the man.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Ok - using the draft as the majority of player acquisition, how long do you anticipate it'll take to get the requisite # of above average starters from the draft? We're talking 3+ years at this point?

At least one more successful draft, probably two. That can be accelerated if the Cards spend nearly all of their rolled over cap space on new players next offseason.

 

[Dayman]

I am definitely not against rebuilds in general. I am just not a huge fan of how this one has gone so far.

Our top 3 offensive weapons this year will likely be Conner, Ertz and Hollywood, which doesn't help the team much in the present or the future unless they plan on re-signing Hollywood. We still have Gardeck starting over Cam Thomas. Thomas made some mistakes last game, but he has infinitely more upside than Gardeck. If this was a true rebuild, why not let Cam learn on the job? What is the harm?

I also don't believe in blowing off a whole year to evaluate a roster. I really can't think of another team that has done this.

And what about Gannon? Is he really going to keep going along with the tank when the media starts ripping him apart for having an awful team? It would be very tough for a first-time coach.

My big fear is that Monti is taking this "smartest guy in the room" act way too far. After breaking up the dynasty Bulls, Jerry Krause famously said, "Players and coaches don't win championships; organizations win championships." The Bulls haven't been to the Finals since. These days, dealing with stars and their egos is essential, and I am not sure Monti is up for the task.

 

[TheCardFan]

You can't do the things he did without Tom Brady

FTFY

 

[RON_IN_OC]

I don't believe it has either on the field or in the front office. The issue becomes that you have to earn the right to treat talented players and the roster as a whole like Belichick did. You can't do the things he did without titles as the man.

I agree...Remember, though BB wasn't in charge of the roster early on. It was someone else. Scott Pioli set up the blueprint that MCD is saying the Cards are working to replicate.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

FTFY

Tom Brady didn't really become the "Tom Brady" we all think about, until the 2nd Super Bowl...it took him a few years to become that player. Pioli was building around what he hoped Brady would become...BB took over in 2009 and built around what Tom Brady had become.

 

[oaken1]

Ok - using the draft as the majority of player acquisition, how long do you anticipate it'll take to get the requisite # of above average starters from the draft? We're talking 3+ years at this point?

depends on how many above average guys you think are required.
If every guy on the team was exactly average... then you add in an above average QB, pass catcher, and RB...your offense scores on anybody.

Throw in an above average DT and pass rusher....now your defense can stop anybody.

IMO the hardest part is filling the roster with average guys.

 

[Chopper0080]

At least one more successful draft, probably two. That can be accelerated if the Cards spend nearly all of their rolled over cap space on new players next offseason.

It all depends on what the organization decides on Kyler Murray. That is where the next show drops in terms of the direction of this franchise.

If they decide to trade him and draft a QB high, then they take the Bengals route and the QB they draft better be really good, really fast.

If they keep Kyler, they head down the Lions path of trying to build a roster with a vet QB on a pricey salary. This path only works if you are able to win 9+ games in year 2 because if not, that seat starts getting very warm.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

right? They started with a team built by Tuna...and were led by the G.O.A.T.
Stacking the roster with guys who would be the worst starter on a good team only works when the leadership executes the system flawlesssly.

Scott Pioli took the Tuna's roster and tore it down, then started the rebuild. BB took over as defacto GM in about 2009.

 

[Chopper0080]

I agree...Remember, though BB wasn't in charge of the roster early on. It was someone else. Scott Pioli set up the blueprint that MCD is saying the Cards are working to replicate.

Belichick was the hatchet man in New England. His scouting knowledge and Parcells like demands regarding personnel also gave him more say regarding the roster.

 

[Chopper0080]

Scott Pioli took the Tuna's roster and tore it down, then started the rebuild. BB took over as defacto GM in about 2009.

Belichick had say over personnel from day 1 in New England. That is the reason he was willing to leave the Jets.

EDIT: It is also why Bill brought Scott over with him from the Jets.

 

[jf-08]

I learned a new phrase today

@kerouac9 is good for a few of those every couple of months or so. He's made me look so stupid as I try to slip those in real convos and I do a total hatchet job. Screw you, k9.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It all depends on what the organization decides on Kyler Murray. That is where the next show drops in terms of the direction of this franchise.

If they decide to trade him and draft a QB high, then they take the Bengals route and the QB they draft better be really good, really fast.

If they keep Kyler, they head down the Lions path of trying to build a roster with a vet QB on a pricey salary. This path only works if you are able to win 9+ games in year 2 because if not, that seat starts getting very warm.

Exactly. So why make a decision on the rest of your roster, until you know what you are going to do with your franchise QB? It only makes sense to 'punt' on this offseason until you know what you have in Kyler.

 

[Proximo]

I am definitely not against rebuilds in general. I am just not a huge fan of how this one has gone so far.

Our top 3 offensive weapons this year will likely be Conner, Ertz and Hollywood, which doesn't help the team much in the present or the future unless they plan on re-signing Hollywood. We still have Gardeck starting over Cam Thomas. Thomas made some mistakes last game, but he has infinitely more upside than Gardeck. If this was a true rebuild, why not let Cam learn on the job? What is the harm?

I also don't believe in blowing off a whole year to evaluate a roster. I really can't think of another team that has done this.

And what about Gannon? Is he really going to keep going along with the tank when the media starts ripping him apart for having an awful team? It would be very tough for a first-time coach.

My big fear is that Monti is taking this "smartest guy in the room" act way too far. After breaking up the dynasty Bulls, Jerry Krause famously said, "Players and coaches don't win championships; organizations win championships." The Bulls haven't been to the Finals since. These days, dealing with stars and their egos is essential, and I am not sure Monti is up for the task.

I don't believe for a second they are attempting to tank.

Nobody they have gotten rid of will make a difference of any significance. We already sucked, getting rid of some of those sucky players is not important.

Yes, I think if Hollywood plays well with Kyler - and more importantly Kyler plays well they will resign Hollywood to keep Kyler happy.