Problem: How to Discredit Jackson now?

[Budden]

As I watch the Lakers-Spurs series - really, this entire post-season in general - I find myself running into a problem that the fans on this board should have particular experience in dealing with. More specifically: how do we discredit Phil Jackson and/or Gregg Popovich now?

It's pretty clear that these two guys are head-and-shoulders above the other coaches in this league. People have always argued that Phil Jackson was only great because he had the best two players in the game, and some of the best players of all time playing together on the same court at the same time. Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman; Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'neal.

But now what? He has Kobe Bryant and a bunch of scrubs on the court, and they're really handing it to the Spurs. The Spurs, mind you, who boast the second best coach in the NBA. The Suns had a better team than the Spurs this year. In fact, I could really argue that they had the most talented group of guys who fit together so well, who were extremely good at every position. Yet they got completely busted by the Spurs.

Then you look at the Celtics and Pistons. The Celtics' road struggles have been well-documented. But you can bet your a$$ that they wouldn't be playing like this if they had Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich at the helm. Similarly, the Pistons still get credit for the fact that the faces of the players, along with the names on the backs of their jerseys, are very similar to the faces and names of the team when Larry Brown was the coach. Problem is, they are a mediocre defensive team nowadays. They lack the discipline on both ends of the court. And Flip Saunders continues to underwhelm anybody who cares to pay any attention.

Perhaps the most pertinent question becomes: what coach can the Suns get? There are so many guys out there that can continue their careers of being out-coached by the Phil Jacksons and Gregg Popovich's of the league. Guys like Mike D'Antoni, if you ignore the amazing regular-season success that D'Antoni enjoyed with the Suns.

 

[Darth Llama]

Ok, I'm going to ask a serious question here. Why would you feel you have to discredit either one of them? Just because someone is your opponent doesn't mean you can't respect them right? I'm not a Spurs fan, I never will be, but I have nothing but the highest respect for Popovich. That guy is a truly great coach in my opinion. No, I won't root for him because I don't like the Spurs and they are rivals to my Lakers, but I would never try to discredit him. With all do respect, doing so would be like coming out and saying Michael Jordon or Magic Johnson weren't good players, you would just get laughed at.

I was one of the people that thought Phil was highly over rated when he coached the Bulls. Even when he came to the Lakers, he inherited Shaq and Kobe, but he still totally turned that team around. Before Phil, that talented Laker team got swept out of the playoffs 3 years in a row, it was just agonizing. Phil steps in and right away we get 3 straight titles. This year, is by far and away the best job Phil has ever done. The problem that the Suns or any team looking for a new coach is going to have, is that these type of coaches are just so rare. I don't really know what it is, or what they do that makes them so good. All the Suns can really do is look for a guy that puts an emphisis on Offense as well as Defense, and someone that seems to have a good understanding of the game. Both Phil and Pop had to start some place, at some point, they were new coaches looking to make a name for themselves. Since there aren't any "elite" coaches out there looking for a job, the only option Phoenix has is to try and find that next great coach.

I think Kerr is a very smart guy. He has a good head for the game, and he knows what he's looking for. I think he might pick a coach that will surprise you guys in a good way. Great coaches are far more rare then great players. Spurs and Lakers are just lucky to have who they have. There is a reason they pay Phil $10 million a year, they know he can't be replaced.

 

[Gaddabout]

The coaches who excel in college tend to be micromanagers. The coaches who excel in the NBA tend to be details oriented people, driven to win as a principle, with a special gift for managing all the personalities. It's not about innovating, it's about managing: the game, the people, the environment. If you can't juggle all of those responsibilities as a natural outreach of your personality, or if you're hyper-focused on one element, you should stick to assistant jobs. I don't think Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich ever wondered what it would be like to be a head coach. I think they just were head coaches their entire lives, the rest of us just didn't know it until they got that opportunity.

It's like my dad says: Leaders are leaders regardless of their position -- they stand out just by walking in a room. I suppose if you were looking for a personality package, I would pick Steve Jobs as the prototype.

 

[AfroSuns]

I have never thought PJ was overrated but i do believe his success his primarily due to the talent he coached just like many other coaches, heck he couldnt get the lakers past the suns last 2 seasons but this is a different roster with a lot of good addition. I dont know why you think all the other players aside from Kobe is a scrub, the lakers have a really talented team hence their deep bench. This series is also a case of bad matchup for the Spurs not to mention the age factor and lets not forget that the gift they got in the form of Pau this season is really helping them too.

 

[hsandhu]

Ok, I'm going to ask a serious question here. Why would you feel you have to discredit either one of them?

To answer your question, because there are some people on this board who actually believe coaching has very little impact on the success of NBA teams a notion I and many others find absurd.

 

[Andrew]

Greatest coach in any sport of all time is named Red, those 2 will never be and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as him...

 

[Sovereignz]

Kobe Bryant and a bunch of scrubs? Really? Wow, what a terrible assessment of the Lakers. I would absolutely beg, BEG, for us to have guys like Vujacic, Turiaf, and Farmar coming off our bench. Those guys play their roles brilliantly, and if you can't appreciate what the Lakers role players are doing for them versus ours (Bell excluded), I don't know what to tell you..

 

[mojorizen7]

Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich rarely do anything during the course of a game and/or playoff series that make you go...."What?!....WTF is he trying to do here?"
or.........."Man,i don't know why he doesn't just put player X on player Y."
These guys ARE head and shoulders above D'Antoni and the rest.

 

[D-Dogg]

Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich rarely do anything during the course of a game and/or playoff series that make you go...."What?!....WTF is he trying to do here?"
or.........."Man,i don't know why he doesn't just put player X on player Y."
These guys ARE head and shoulders above D'Antoni and the rest.

I wasn't keen on Phil having Kobe back on the court in the fourth when Pop had emptied the bench. I understand why he did it...having a leader on the floor with the bench guys to help them maintain the offense and not get wild with crazy shots and to build confidence for a tough game 3, but the game was in hand and I was terrified of a freak injury that would crush us.

Bit of a gamble, albeit a small one, that I wouldn't have taken. But then again, I don't have 9 rings and Phillip does.

 

[CardinalsFan11]

Phil Jackson has 9 championship rings. Popovich has 4. If you just realized now that they're head and shoulders above other coaches in the league, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[mojorizen7]

To answer your question, because there are some people on this board who actually believe coaching has very little impact on the success of NBA teams a notion I and many others find absurd.

You are so right.

 

[mojorizen7]

Phil Jackson has 9 championship rings. Popovich has 4. If you just realized now that they're head and shoulders above other coaches in the league, you haven't been paying attention.

Are you directing this towards me? If so...where in my post did i describe these coaches greatness as my own personal epiphany?......

 

[CardinalsFan11]

Are you directing this towards me? If so...where in my post did i describe these coaches greatness as my own personal epiphany?......

I wasn't directing comment to you mojo, more towards the OP

 

[mojorizen7]

I wasn't directing comment to you mojo, more towards the OP

 

[btimsah]

Popavich I think more so than Jackson just walked into a great situation. He's a great coach, but without Duncan he'd be an average coach. Phil Jackson is probably the luckiest coach I've ever seen. He's gotten to coach 3 of the most dominant players of all time in Jordan, Shaq and Kobe.

To his credit, Jackson shaped a team around Kobe this year.

 

[dodie53]

imo,
Pop and PJ are great coaches

 

[Irish]

It is always hard to know just how good a coach is. In football, Chuck Noll won four superbowls in six years and rarely had playoff teams after that. What changed was that the super players he had got old and never had the kind of talent he had in the 70's. Vince Lombardi was briefly coach of the Redskins, but did not have the talent he had in Green Bay.

Chuck Daly won the NBA championship twice, but didn't do much before or after. Rudy T won a couple championships. But from 1997 to 2004, his best season was 45 wins. Rick Adelman has a better overall record than either of those guys, but has never won the championship.

I don't think you can win a championship without a good coach, but neither can you win without a very good collection of players. Daly and Rudy T were good, but IMHO not superior coaches who can consistently win with inferior personnel. Are Pops and PJ superior coaches? I don't know. PJ took the same team that Rudy T failed with and got them to the playoffs, but had to steal a couple of players to get to where they are now. I'd say he's better than Rudy T, but I'm not sure what that means.

 

[D-Dogg]

Popavich I think more so than Jackson just walked into a great situation. He's a great coach, but without Duncan he'd be an average coach. Phil Jackson is probably the luckiest coach I've ever seen. He's gotten to coach 3 of the most dominant players of all time in Jordan, Shaq and Kobe.

To his credit, Jackson shaped a team around Kobe this year.

He also shaped 3 titles around a bitter Shaq/Kobe fued that started broiling from day one. A team that could NOT win. He fused them into a dominant team that took three titles and almost another.

He's a great NBA coach...where melding spoiled, rich kids into champions is where your mettle is tested.

 

[hsandhu]

He also shaped 3 titles around a bitter Shaq/Kobe fued that started broiling from day one. A team that could NOT win. He fused them into a dominant team that took three titles and almost another.

He's a great NBA coach...where melding spoiled, rich kids into champions is where your mettle is tested.

Donald, people forget but before odom got injured last year the lakers were a top 4-5 team in the entire league. This was just jackson's second year with the new crew and his roster wasn't any better than the one rudy t had when the lakers sucked (rudy had caron butler).

To me Jackson certified his greatness last year. I still don't understand how people can saying great coaching can't have a huge impact in the nba.

 

[D-Dogg]

Donald, people forget but before odom got injured last year the lakers were a top 4-5 team in the entire league. This was just jackson's second year with the new crew and his roster wasn't any better than the one rudy t had when the lakers sucked (rudy had caron butler).

To me Jackson certified his greatness last year. I still don't understand how people can saying great coaching can't have a huge impact in the nba.

I don't forget...that team was playing well and injuries hit it HARD.

 

[tobiazz]

As a coach, PJ has help bad teams make the playoffs and great teams dominate. He has also handled players with massive egos and I don't think any of them turned on him. The coach's most important job may be to familiarize the players with one another's play. Team USA has suffered mostly due to a lack of familiarity (also, team composition). The Suns arguably failed to progress much due to a lack of familiarity (read: practice). Even though PJ has been very lucky and Pop has been a very lucky DB, I still think they are great coaches.

 

[Hat]

imo,
Pop and PJ are great coaches

thanks for the insight

 

[nowagimp]

Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich rarely do anything during the course of a game and/or playoff series that make you go...."What?!....WTF is he trying to do here?"
or.........."Man,i don't know why he doesn't just put player X on player Y."
These guys ARE head and shoulders above D'Antoni and the rest.

When Nash was going for the tying 3 pointer with the clock winding down in game 5, Pops didnt have him fouled to prevent the shot. If I remember correctly this same scenario DA did the same thing and was questioned incessantly ont his board. POP is a better coach than DA, or at least his team responds to him better as their execution is better. But the 2nd guessing game can be made in both cases except Nashs 3 pt shot didnt fall and Duncans did. And between the two, I'd rather let Duncan shoot the 3 pter than Nash.

PJ and POP command player attention like no other coaches as they each have at least 4 championships. Players who want to be champions, listen to the guy whos done it, many times.

As for the lakers roster: "kobe and a bunch of scrubs", as it has already been pointed out Gasol is an all star, Odom would easily start for the suns, and the lakers have better outside shooters than the suns WITHOUT kobe. The lakers team is the deepest team int he playoffs, and they bring too much size and skill up front for this spurs team. Which scrub will oberto guard? Shall it be gasol or odom?

 

[abomb]

As I watch the Lakers-Spurs series - really, this entire post-season in general - I find myself running into a problem that the fans on this board should have particular experience in dealing with. More specifically: how do we discredit Phil Jackson and/or Gregg Popovich now?

It's pretty clear that these two guys are head-and-shoulders above the other coaches in this league. People have always argued that Phil Jackson was only great because he had the best two players in the game, and some of the best players of all time playing together on the same court at the same time. Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman; Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'neal.

But now what? He has Kobe Bryant and a bunch of scrubs on the court, and they're really handing it to the Spurs. The Spurs, mind you, who boast the second best coach in the NBA. The Suns had a better team than the Spurs this year. In fact, I could really argue that they had the most talented group of guys who fit together so well, who were extremely good at every position. Yet they got completely busted by the Spurs.

Then you look at the Celtics and Pistons. The Celtics' road struggles have been well-documented. But you can bet your a$$ that they wouldn't be playing like this if they had Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich at the helm. Similarly, the Pistons still get credit for the fact that the faces of the players, along with the names on the backs of their jerseys, are very similar to the faces and names of the team when Larry Brown was the coach. Problem is, they are a mediocre defensive team nowadays. They lack the discipline on both ends of the court. And Flip Saunders continues to underwhelm anybody who cares to pay any attention.

Perhaps the most pertinent question becomes: what coach can the Suns get? There are so many guys out there that can continue their careers of being out-coached by the Phil Jacksons and Gregg Popovich's of the league. Guys like Mike D'Antoni, if you ignore the amazing regular-season success that D'Antoni enjoyed with the Suns.

 

[btimsah]

Phil Jackson is a great coach. I would just like to see what he could do without the best players to ever step on the court.