Put Amare On The Block....

[da_suns_fan]

Amare also put up some big numbers of his own in some of those games. So that means what exactly in your eyes?? They owned Amare but Amare owned them?? You make no sense. At the very least you could call it a wash.

Which games? I went through the list and left some out because they were a wash (see Indiana where Amare scored 42 but Oneal had 30 and 12 IIRC).

Also, Amare has worked Dwight Howard plenty of times in the past.

Thats great. Find me a time machine so we can go get a younger Amare and a younger Howard so we can watch that matchup again.

However, lets look at this. Between November 23rd and Dec 07, Amare averaged 26.5 points and 9.6 rebounds. During that stretch the likes of Yao, Dwight and Curry could not stop Amare either.

Huh? I never said that Curry owned Amare. And 9.6 boards is pretty poor considering how many potential rebounds there are in a Suns game. Dwight Howard averaged TWENTY against us.

9.6?

Wow. (Sarcasm)

That 8 game stretch matches any 8 game stretch that any other center in the NBA has had this season. So you can't use what people did to Amare without pointing out what Amare did to them.

Also, last time I checked the Suns rotate other guys against the opposing teams centers and I am sure not every point or rebound was scored with Amare on all of those players.

PS. That would mean in at least 50% of the games this season Amare has put up dominate numbers against the opposing centers as well.

Im not sure which 8 games your are talking about, but I would love to see...seriously. Restore my confidence in STAT. Show me this 8 game stretch in which he dominated.

 

[Nash2Amare]

Uhhhh....ya think?

Lets see....Dwight Howard unleashed the mother of all ownage TWICE on Amare this season:

He should....he is taller then him by 2-3 inches, much more stronger, bulky then Amare since he has never dealt with knee problems (which requires you to maintain your weight more), and is more athletic, even though Amare is still extremely athletic. Also, D-12 has owned almost everyone..so I'm not worried.

Amare hasn't lost it, the reason some of the haters here believe that is because he is being fed less and less, and inconsistently (He got 1 whopping shot in the 3rd qtr of Utah gm). Give him the ball (Like the last East coast trip) and he'll murder.. 30 ppg/9/73% shooting

If you want to fix his rebounding problems, get him a center. You don't see San Antonio being stupid and throwing Duncan at a position he is not (Center)..you don't see Dallas throwing Dirk at a position he is not. No, they both have Robin's, if that's how you want to put it. Start Skinner at C, and/or acquire a legit defensive big man who could knock a J or two down. Amare is one HELLUVA weak side defender, he'd be swatting shots left and right and not be riding the bench because of foul trouble since he is forced to go up against the opposing teams elite C each night. He's not a C, put him back at PF.

 

[Covert Rain]

Which games? I went through the list and left some out because they were a wash (see Indiana where Amare scored 42 but Oneal had 30 and 12 IIRC).

Oh...now they are a wash? Because before you were counting those performances against Amare but not giving him credit. So in other words some of those performances against Amare were a wash too.

Huh? I never said that Curry owned Amare. And 9.6 boards is pretty poor considering how many potential rebounds there are in a Suns game. Dwight Howard averaged TWENTY against us.

I never said that you said that. I was merely pointing out that you seem to be cherry picking points to bash Amare but not giving any credit.

Wow....is right.

Im not sure which 8 games your are talking about, but I would love to see...seriously. Restore my confidence in STAT. Show me this 8 game stretch in which he dominated.

Here are the games:

Dec 07 @ WAS
Dec 05 @ TOR
Dec 04 @ IND
Dec 02 @ NYK
Nov 30 vs. ORL
Nov 28 vs. HOU
Nov 26 @ GSW
Nov 23 vs. LAC

Average? 26.5 points and 9.6 rebounds per game.

I bet you couldn't name very many centers in this league that averaged that over an 8 game span. The only reason why I even knew about this stretch is because I was watching NBA tonight and they brought up the stretch and said it was one of the most impressive in the NBA. So 26.5 points and 9.6 rebounds average is pretty damn good in a league filled with big men who average less then 10 points and 10 rebounds per game.

So if you want to argue that Amare was worked in that stretch as much as he worked the opponents then great. So if that's the case how exactly better off are those teams with their centers then we are ours? I think some of you are losing some serious perspective.

 

[LV-Suns]

dirk and boozer may be poor defensively, but unlike amare they make up for it in other ways. Dirk is much like nash....the heart of his team even without defensive ability. he creates plays, he spreads the floor, he passes, he rebounds well, and most importantly he does all of that every single night. \
Boozer is not a good defender either, but he rebounds well and plays very consistent basketball much like dirk.
Amare rebounds when he wants to, blocks shots occasionally, and gets himself into foul trouble. some games he'll drop 30 points and dunk over anyone the defense throws at him, some games he'll settle for the jumper and not even make an attempt at the offensive glass.

thats just ludacris calling Dirk calling heart of the team
HE IS NOT

 

[LV-Suns]

What does that say about Amare?

"Yo Shawn...we know this guy is much taller and stronger than you, but we can't have Amare defend him cuz he'll own us all night long. Good luck buddy."

Look, Im a Suns fan through and through and I want them AND AMARE to be successful, but trust me...

AMARE DOESN'T GET IT!!!!

He doesn't understand that big men on teams with rebounding problems shouldn't be working on their three point shot.

He doesn't understand the commitment to defense it takes to win a championship.

Im wasting my time though. Sarver is NEVER going to trade Amare or fire D'Antoni.

yes you are wasting your time with your posts

 

[LV-Suns]

The comparisons to DC are absurd, pathetic. Suns fans have very little patience for their players coming back from injury. Maybe they need to live with big or little Jake again for awhile to understand what the suns have in amare. I remember the trade nash threads when the suns went out and got Raja, KT, JR and Nash had a bad 12-15 game start. "Trade him while his value is High" was one of the chants. Then he went out and got MVP, twice. Amare will not regain his strength until mid year, lets see what happens then.

this post explains it very well

 

[Nash2Amare]

Utah does have Paul Millsap too, ya know? (DSF)

 

[arwillan]

thats just ludacris calling Dirk calling heart of the team
HE IS NOT

if the MVP of the league is not the heart of his team, what has this league come to?

 

[mjb21aztd]

Just watch once we win a few in a row people will fall in love with Amare all over again... ugh these threads are becoming really annoying

 

[krispydude]

just watch amare after shots go up and it will tell you all you need to know about his rebounding skills. then watch howard, chandler, boozer. they get into position and box out. amare doesnt even try most of the time. im tired of the hes playing out of position blah blah blah. its not like if he played PF he would suddenly starting boxing out and pulling down 15 rebounds a game.

he's either not putting the effort in on the boards or not getting coached good enough. possibly a little of both i dunno, i dont watch their practices.

 

[da_suns_fan]

I think people are getting too upset with my Amare bashing so I will take it down a notch. Don't forget that Im a huge Suns fan.

 

[da_suns_fan]

just watch amare after shots go up and it will tell you all you need to know about his rebounding skills. then watch howard, chandler, boozer. they get into position and box out. amare doesnt even try most of the time. im tired of the hes playing out of position blah blah blah. its not like if he played PF he would suddenly starting boxing out and pulling down 15 rebounds a game.

he's either not putting the effort in on the boards or not getting coached good enough. possibly a little of both i dunno, i dont watch their practices.

No kidding...Shawn plays the four and has never used that as an excuse as for why he doesn't get rebounds.

 

[nowagimp]

Oh...now they are a wash? Because before you were counting those performances against Amare but not giving him credit. So in other words some of those performances against Amare were a wash too.



I never said that you said that. I was merely pointing out that you seem to be cherry picking points to bash Amare but not giving any credit.

Wow....is right.



Here are the games:

Dec 07 @ WAS
Dec 05 @ TOR
Dec 04 @ IND
Dec 02 @ NYK
Nov 30 vs. ORL
Nov 28 vs. HOU
Nov 26 @ GSW
Nov 23 vs. LAC

Average? 26.5 points and 9.6 rebounds per game.

I bet you couldn't name very many centers in this league that averaged that over an 8 game span. The only reason why I even knew about this stretch is because I was watching NBA tonight and they brought up the stretch and said it was one of the most impressive in the NBA. So 26.5 points and 9.6 rebounds average is pretty damn good in a league filled with big men who average less then 10 points and 10 rebounds per game.

So if you want to argue that Amare was worked in that stretch as much as he worked the opponents then great. So if that's the case how exactly better off are those teams with their centers then we are ours? I think some of you are losing some serious perspective.

Yeah and Im willing to bet amare played less than 32 mins to get those 26.5 points and shot nearly 60% FG's. Amare isnt completely responsible for those guys going off. I can still see Jamir Nelson flying into the lane with defender 2 steps behind and amare going to defend, then the lob and dunk by howard, must have happened 5-6 times in one game. Amare could have just let jamir finish, then howards stats wouldnt have been so impressive. If nelson doesnt get into the lane so easy, amare can stay home on D. It happens over and over again, the penetrations of the lane are very damaging and it isnt amare whos defending the PG or '2' doing the penetration. Raja has been hurt, and still isnt back, in a few weeks we should see what the D looks like when the suns are healthy.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Yeah and Im willing to bet amare played less than 32 mins to get those 26.5 points and shot nearly 60% FG's. Amare isnt completely responsible for those guys going off. I can still see Jamir Nelson flying into the lane with defender 2 steps behind and amare going to defend, then the lob and dunk by howard, must have happened 5-6 times in one game. Amare could have just let jamir finish, then howards stats wouldnt have been so impressive. If nelson doesnt get into the lane so easy, amare can stay home on D. It happens over and over again, the penetrations of the lane are very damaging and it isnt amare whos defending the PG or '2' doing the penetration. Raja has been hurt, and still isnt back, in a few weeks we should see what the D looks like when the suns are healthy.

Please don't blame Amare's poor performances on Nash. Are Howards seven offensive rebounds Nash's fault (I think he had put back slams on every single one)?

I only wish Amare had the toughness and desire of Nash.

 

[Covert Rain]

Please don't blame Amare's poor performances on Nash. Are Howards seven offensive rebounds Nash's fault (I think he had put back slams on every single one)?

I only wish Amare had the toughness and desire of Nash.

Again, ridiculous. It takes toughness to play in the paint. It takes toughness to bang in their and put up over 20 points in a game. It takes toughness to have to go up against the likes of Yao and Shaq year after year because your coach is playing you out of your normal position.

It takes toughness to come back from a sever injury in which many guys would call it a day. Not to mention that you have to have desire to even want to make it back after a serious injury like that.

Though I do think that Amare is no stellar defender, the team as a whole is not good defensively. That has more to do with scheme then anything else. Something tells me that POP or Phil could make a much better defensive squad out of the same group of guys.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

This team isn't going anywhere without a legitimate low post defender. Skinner is nice for energy and rebounding, but he isn't a great man on defender. Amare is absolutely horrible, his only defensive worth is shot blocking and weak side help.

Re-watch the Minnesota game. Amare was flat out getting outhustled. There's no other way about it. Ditto on New Orleans. The only time he plays with 100% effort is on the offensive end, and even there he doesn't have a very good low post game, which greatly hurts us in the half-court.

Emeka Okafor (at least before they acquired Nazr Mohammed), Ben Wallace, Antonio McDyess, Andris Biedrins, Nick Collison, etc. are all guys who play undersized at center. It's something you have to do in order to play in the league.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Just watch once we win a few in a row people will fall in love with Amare all over again... ugh these threads are becoming really annoying

You act like this turn of ewvents here on a message board is a short-sighted knee-jerk. I can assure, at least in my case, that it is not. I first raised an eyebrow at Amare when he went to get his forst knee surgery immediately AFTER signing his big contract. He hid it from management so as not to affect contract negotiations. At any rate, his effort (or lack thereof) is evident in any game except for the occasional breakout 40/15 game that he's had and will assuredly have again.

Amare doesn't have the mental capacity to carry this team and either we trade him for assetS r we trade another player (ie, Shawn) for an asset to complement Amare....

 

[nowagimp]

Please don't blame Amare's poor performances on Nash. Are Howards seven offensive rebounds Nash's fault (I think he had put back slams on every single one)?

I only wish Amare had the toughness and desire of Nash.

Steve Nash brings alot to the table, I dont question him. But dont foolishly think its a good plan to have amare just stand in the lane blocking the shots of penetrators who come in at will, its a crappy plan and wont work in the NBA for any big man. If he moives on the penetrator the lob and offensive rebound will be wide open for his defensive assignment and that would be stupid.

I am willing to bet Howard did the same things(follows, lobs) on tim duncan, to the tune of 34 points, and no one is questioning Duncans toughness at all. At some point people are going to have to realize that Howard is a tremendous talent, he has(9) 30/15 games this year in the NBA, the next most is 2(Boozer), so Howard is the real deal and myabe, just maybe nobody can really stop him. The suns won both games and the spurs also beat them when Howard scored 34, but we complain about Dwights stats? The magic did beat the celtics, so mayhbe they are pretty good. Amare averaged 37 against the spurs in the '05 playoffs, but the spurs won anyway. Do you thing spurs fans were complaining that amare scored 37ppg after the series? I'm betting POPs didnt care how many points amare scored in that series.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

just watch amare after shots go up and it will tell you all you need to know about his rebounding skills. then watch howard, chandler, boozer. they get into position and box out. amare doesnt even try most of the time. im tired of the hes playing out of position blah blah blah. its not like if he played PF he would suddenly starting boxing out and pulling down 15 rebounds a game.

he's either not putting the effort in on the boards or not getting coached good enough. possibly a little of both i dunno, i dont watch their practices.

I don't think there is anyone on this staff that cares enough to get Amare in position correctly. Amare's problems are positioning, he is way too concerned with gaurding pt guards on the top of the key.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't think there is anyone on this staff that cares enough to get Amare in position correctly. Amare's problems are positioning, he is way too concerned with gaurding pt guards on the top of the key.

I thought that was his job in D'Antoni's "Let Rotate to the Open Guy Screw Matchups Play Out of Position" system.

 

[BuddyFranklin]

Defense aside, the Suns need to feed Amare the damn ball!!!!! (in position)

Last game he had 11 shots. Sorry that ain't gonna cut it. He must be frustrating as hell. Guys take some ******** shots... Bell, Barbs and Marion specifically. Guys will florish more when they get the ball in position. Player through Amare, Hill, and Nash. Organised offense. Some of the incoherent rubbish we display is damn embarrassing. So get Amare the ball then allow him to throw it back out... ala in 04 05 when it happens on a reg basic. Then you have players knowing what the hell is going on. Gotta play smarter! Amare should be taking 15 to 20 shots EVERY game!

and play better defense.

I'm happy to trade him after he's given the chance to dominate like he can.

 

[Sovereignz]

Long time lurker, first time poster .

Anyway, nowagimp and BuddyFranklin have the right of it in my opinion. Let's remember that every player in this league, save maybe 2 or 3, have weaknesses - including our beloved MVP. But Amare's weakness is compounded almost infinitely by the situation of the team that he plays for. Amare doesn't have Tyson Chandler behind him when he's playing his man, he doesn't have Ron Artest denying penetration, and he sure as hell isn't on a team coached by Gregg Popovich. The game that nowagimp was talking about against Orlando - Dwight Howard got all those wide open alley-oop dunks because our guards couldn't contain.. of all people.. CARLOS ARROYO. Come on. Count how many times Amare has to leave his man and go out and challenge an opposing team's guard with Nash, Barbosa or Bell (who is not near the defender he has a reputation of being, let's be honest) eating their dust. Every game. It's sickening.

He is frustrating sometimes. For someone with such a meticulous approach to improving his own game, these weaknesses are simple things that should have been corrected long ago. Even still.. when it gets down to playoff time against San Antonio, when everyone else on the team save Steve (and I'm hoping Grant) have their cajones tucked in between their legs - and you just know they will (looking at you, "Air" Marion) - we'll be thanking our stars we have Amare dropping 35 and 15 and giving us a glimmer of hope. That's my bet anyway.

 

[arwillan]

Long time lurker, first time poster .

Anyway, nowagimp and BuddyFranklin have the right of it in my opinion. Let's remember that every player in this league, save maybe 2 or 3, have weaknesses - including our beloved MVP. But Amare's weakness is compounded almost infinitely by the situation of the team that he plays for. Amare doesn't have Tyson Chandler behind him when he's playing his man, he doesn't have Ron Artest denying penetration, and he sure as hell isn't on a team coached by Gregg Popovich. The game that nowagimp was talking about against Orlando - Dwight Howard got all those wide open alley-oop dunks because our guards couldn't contain.. of all people.. CARLOS ARROYO. Come on. Count how many times Amare has to leave his man and go out and challenge an opposing team's guard with Nash, Barbosa or Bell (who is not near the defender he has a reputation of being, let's be honest) eating their dust. Every game. It's sickening.

He is frustrating sometimes. For someone with such a meticulous approach to improving his own game, these weaknesses are simple things that should have been corrected long ago. Even still.. when it gets down to playoff time against San Antonio, when everyone else on the team save Steve (and I'm hoping Grant) have their cajones tucked in between their legs - and you just know they will (looking at you, "Air" Marion) - we'll be thanking our stars we have Amare dropping 35 and 15 and giving us a glimmer of hope. That's my bet anyway.

bold words, great post, and all very true. if you put dirk on this team with amare as his back-up defender both of them would wind up looking stupid because of how their weaknesses would be highlighted. Take away martin/camby and melo would look stupid a lot of the time on defense because he gets beaten off the dribble a lot; luckily for him he has camby back there waiting to swat a shot. Kobe has the flaw of selfishness, lebron has a streaky 3-point shot, nash can't play defense (though it isn't due to lack of effort), dwight howard has no J and no free throw stroke, duncan is a poor free throw shooter, shaq is the same as howard, bosh settles for the jumper a lot, jason kidd also has a streaky outside shot, and amare is not a good post defender (except for weak-side shot blocking). you see, no player is totally flawless and it's all about highlighting and covering those flaws.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I'd also like to say that despite my critique of his game, I still love Amare and I think that he'll be a very good player some day. I just don't want to see us waste Nash's prime. If we can trade Marion for a legit defensive presence then I'm all for it.

 

[arwillan]

I'd also like to say that despite my critique of his game, I still love Amare and I think that he'll be a very good player some day. I just don't want to see us waste Nash's prime. If we can trade Marion for a legit defensive presence then I'm all for it.

i'm with you (and many other suns fans). Though amare is not perfect, i love him as a player because of what he DOES bring to the table. i think he is a very good player now, actually (at least offensively). I also agree that if we can sweep up a good big man defender for marion (maybe a 3 point shooter to go with it) i'd be for it.