QB Battle: Doug & Wolf

[Garthshort]

So let me see. I can have the guy who's good in practice or good in games? Give me a couple of weeks to think about it.

 

[InfiniteRed]

I think Whiz has mostly made his decision to go with Skelton, but he is acting like it is open because why would he criticize Kolb or say he prefers Skelton to the media?
There isn't really any advantage, it's not like we have a QB who is playing spectacularly, we have one that is playing really badly and one who is playing adequately. Putting down and already low Kolb reduces any lucky chance of a bounce back or even creates an opportunity of regression in confidence from Skelton. Honestly I don't see an advantage of him picking a starter now, so why would he say anything? He said it was an open competition and no one wins until it is over, even if he has his winner already he wouldn't pick now since there is no reason to.

 

[kerouac9]

I think Whiz has mostly made his decision to go with Skelton, but he is acting like it is open because why would he criticize Kolb or say he prefers Skelton to the media?
There isn't really any advantage, it's not like we have a QB who is playing spectacularly, we have one that is playing really badly and one who is playing adequately. Putting down and already low Kolb reduces any lucky chance of a bounce back or even creates an opportunity of regression in confidence from Skelton. Honestly I don't see an advantage of him picking a starter now, so why would he say anything? He said it was an open competition and no one wins until it is over, even if he has his winner already he wouldn't pick now since there is no reason to.

Really?

1) Increased practice and game reps with the 1st unit offense
2) Increased comfort with the starting quarterback's cadence
3) Increased reps with signals between QB and receivers
4) Increased comfort from offensive line about where a QB will or won't be in his dropback
5) More reps for timing between starting receivers and the quarterback on routes
6) Certainty to increase reps on plays the quarterback is most comfortable with
7) Increased reps for starting quarterback with starting receivers
8) Increased leadership from a real decision on who the starting quarterback is
9) End of questions from media/fans on who the starting quarterback is decreases distractions
10) Increased reps with QB gets receivers consistency with ball release point/placement from starter.

There are more. What is the downside to naming a quarterback right now? Delaying the embarrassment of folding up shop on another starting QB?

 

[52brandon]

What is the downside to naming a quarterback right now? Delaying the embarrassment of folding up shop on another starting QB?

well, if they name Kolb, everything you listed as a benefit, would be a downside once he gets shattered in his first hit and Skelton comes in with the less reps/comfort/etc.

 

[kerouac9]

well, if they name Kolb, everything you listed as a benefit, would be a downside once he gets shattered in his first hit and Skelton comes in with the less reps/comfort/etc.

I'm pretty sure that's the concern of myself, Cheesy, and others.

I don't really understand the idea that Skelton hasn't exactly ripped it up in the preseason. He's had 15 attempts in 3 preseason games. 8 of his 10 completions have resulted in first downs. He's keeping pace with Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo on the stat sheet.

 

[52brandon]

I'm pretty sure that's the concern of myself, Cheesy, and others.

I don't really understand the idea that Skelton hasn't exactly ripped it up in the preseason. He's had 15 attempts in 3 preseason games. 8 of his 10 completions have resulted in first downs. He's keeping pace with Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo on the stat sheet.

IMO (even as a steady Kolb supporter last year), all Skelton had to do was stay on the field to earn the starting job after Kolb left with bruised ribs in the first damn game

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Why name a starter when neither QB has won the job? I've said all along that the QB winner will likley be decided in practices and that the games are somewhat meaningless. From what I, and almost everyone else, has seen Skelton should be the starter. But, if he is constantly stinking it up in practice, I can see where that is an issue. I look at it this way, if Kolb is better in the 25, or so, practices and Skelton is better in 5 glorified scrimmages, I could see them going with Kolb. The coaches are grading every play and every throw, they know what's going on. If Skelton had practiced better. I'm sure Whiz would have named him by now. I still think he will name Skelton but I don't think it's the slam dunk some are making it out to be.

 

[kerouac9]

Why name a starter when neither QB has won the job? I've said all along that the QB winner will likley be decided in practices and that the games are somewhat meaningless. From what I, and almost everyone else, has seen Skelton should be the starter. But, if he is constantly stinking it up in practice, I can see where that is an issue. I look at it this way, if Kolb is better in the 25, or so, practices and Skelton is better in 5 glorified scrimmages, I could see them going with Kolb. The coaches are grading every play and every throw, they know what's going on. If Skelton had practiced better. I'm sure Whiz would have named him by now. I still think he will name Skelton but I don't think it's the slam dunk some are making it out to be.

An issue with actually naming him the starter, or an issue with deciding to name him the starter? I think those are two different things.

Neither of these guys are Derek Anderson and Max Hall learning the offense, at this point. There's tons of film available on both; both have more than 400 career attempts, and both have at least 250 attempts in this offense from last year.

If there's a recency bias going on because they've seen Kolb playing well on practice film (and I don't think that anyone's said that Kolb looks AWESOME in training camp inasmuch as they've said that he looks like he belongs on the field), while Skelton has struggled, that's a problem.

 

[52brandon]

Why name a starter when neither QB has won the job? I've said all along that the QB winner will likley be decided in practices and that the games are somewhat meaningless. From what I, and almost everyone else, has seen Skelton should be the starter. But, if he is constantly stinking it up in practice, I can see where that is an issue. I look at it this way, if Kolb is better in the 25, or so, practices and Skelton is better in 5 glorified scrimmages, I could see them going with Kolb. The coaches are grading every play and every throw, they know what's going on. If Skelton had practiced better. I'm sure Whiz would have named him by now. I still think he will name Skelton but I don't think it's the slam dunk some are making it out to be.

while I understand that that is what's being reported and all we really have to go on. I find it hard to believe that Skelton is God-awful in all these practices yet is still the guy that the players want to lead em...

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

An issue with actually naming him the starter, or an issue with deciding to name him the starter? I think those are two different things.

Neither of these guys are Derek Anderson and Max Hall learning the offense, at this point. There's tons of film available on both; both have more than 400 career attempts, and both have at least 250 attempts in this offense from last year.

If there's a recency bias going on because they've seen Kolb playing well on practice film (and I don't think that anyone's said that Kolb looks AWESOME in training camp inasmuch as they've said that he looks like he belongs on the field), while Skelton has struggled, that's a problem.

Agree, they haven't clarified much in relation to practice other than Kolb has played better. Does that mean Skelton has been stinking it up in practice and Kolb has been "less awful"? Or, has Kolb looked very good while Skelton has been so-so? I guess the only thing I can derive from it is that Skelton hasn't practiced very well and that's a concern. It's a legitimate concern too. I know he's nowhere near these guys, but I'm sure guys like Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, et al, aren't stinking it up in practice.

I think it's tough decision if Kolb is clearly out-performing him in practice. Too bad we don't get Jets/Tebow like coverage of the Cards because, from the reports we get, no one really knows.

 

[Shane]

while I understand that that is what's being reported and all we really have to go on. I find it hard to believe that Skelton is God-awful in all these practices yet is still the guy that the players want to lead em...

You find it hard to beliece? Every report but 1 that I can think of backs it up. Like i said the practice I went to and was giving a play by play of Skelton was terrifyingly awful. Worst qb performance at practice I gave seen in over a decade of attending TC.

He was missing wide open WRs 5 yards in front of him for goodness sake and threw like 3 ints all with zero pressure. It was astonishingly bad!

 

[Krangodnzr]

I continue to be baffled that you think that the best coach in Arizona Cardinals history has little or even no control over the talent that gets brought in to this team. Don't you think that the Head Coach has direct input into at least the top 3 picks that a team makes in the draft? Do you think that after the Anderson debacle that the front office doesn't give the head coach even more input into who he has playing under center?

In most organizations, the head coach is able to evaluate the top 50 or so players on the draft board, and then the scouting staff takes over and has a lot more of the input on the later guys. I'm surprised that you're happy to credit Whis for guys like LSH, Acho, Toler, Hightower, etc., but the first and second round disasters are out of his hands.

Top free agent targets have a lot of input from the coaching staff. Bottom-of-the-roster guys are usually the scouting departments' fault.

It's amazing that you think that the most successful head coach in the organization's history probably isn't also the most powerful since at least Buddy Ryan.

Where have I given him any real credit on drafting players? I have consistently stated that a head coach doesn't spend his time scouting players. He has some input, but to claim that all these personnel failures are whisenhunt's fault are ridiculous.

BTW It will be nice to see yet another draft pick that you panned (Ryan Williams) join the list of guys from the past that you panned (Daryl Washington and Larry Fitzgerald among others).

 

[52brandon]

You find it hard to beliece? Every report but 1 that I can think of backs it up. Like i said the practice I went to and was giving a play by play of Skelton was terrifyingly awful. Worst qb performance at practice I gave seen in over a decade of attending TC.

He was missing wide open WRs 5 yards in front of him for goodness sake and threw like 3 ints all with zero pressure. It was astonishingly bad!

I don't get the player loyalty then if he sucks 90% of the time they see him take snaps...

 

[kerouac9]

Where have I given him any real credit on drafting players? I have consistently stated that a head coach doesn't spend his time scouting players. He has some input, but to claim that all these personnel failures are whisenhunt's fault are ridiculous.

BTW It will be nice to see yet another draft pick that you panned (Ryan Williams) join the list of guys from the past that you panned (Daryl Washington and Larry Fitzgerald among others).

Do you really believe this? Does he do it in-season? Of course not. But what do you think that these guys are doing from February through April? Why do head coaches bother going to the Combine? Because Indianapolis is beautiful in March? Why put the head coach in the draft room?

As I said, head coaches and staffs have a TON of say over the top 100 or so prospects on the draft board, and a TON of say over the team's Top 25-40 board. The further you go in the draft, the more important the team's personnel department becomes. Everything that I've seen, read, and heard confirms this.

I'd appreciate it if you actually responded to my original question:

I continue to be baffled that you think that the best coach in Arizona Cardinals history has little or even no control over the talent that gets brought in to this team. Don't you think that the Head Coach has direct input into at least the top 3 picks that a team makes in the draft? Do you think that [especially] after the Anderson debacle that the front office doesn't give the head coach even more input into who he has playing under center?

Daryl Washington I actually hated, and was wrong about. Larry Fitzgerald I just didn't like as much as other guys (and I think you were in the same camp, IIRC, championing Phillip Rivers--I stupidly liked Roy Williams more), but I still thought would be good. We'll see on Ryan Williams. Should he have a--you know--regular season carry or two before you start pounding your chest, though?

 

[Shane]

I don't get the player loyalty then if he sucks 90% of the time they see him take snaps...

What player loyalty? Have you seen quotes of a player coming out and saying Skelton is the guy for them and outright bad mouthing Kolb? Because I haven't?

 

[52brandon]

What player loyalty? Have you seen quotes of a player coming out and saying Skelton is the guy for them and outright bad mouthing Kolb? Because I haven't?

no I haven't seen that. But I didn't see him suck in practice either. I'm just going off reports on both, as that's all I have to go on

 

[CardLogic]

The ultimate Cardinals sweetness. I downloaded TuneIn radio on my superphone, and can listen to Cardinals sports radio on the way home from work here in NJ.

Anyway, the word out of Doug & Wolf is that the reason the Cardinals still have a QB battle right now, and not a named starter is:

"Kevin Kolb has won the competition per practice performance, and John Skelton has won the competition per game performance."

Supposidely Skelton has been horrible in practice, and Kolb has been "acceptable".

As for the games? Well, the fans get to watch the games so we know the story there.

Interesting....................

I said the same thing yesterday; here: http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2671824&postcount=5

And I assume if Skelton performs well tomorrow vs. the Titans; regardless of what Kolb does in the same game; Skelton will be named the starter shortly (in the first few days) following that game.

If Skelton blows it, we are DOOMED!

 

[CtCardinals78]

The ultimate Cardinals sweetness. I downloaded TuneIn radio on my superphone, and can listen to Cardinals sports radio on the way home from work here in NJ.

Anyway, the word out of Doug & Wolf is that the reason the Cardinals still have a QB battle right now, and not a named starter is:

"Kevin Kolb has won the competition per practice performance, and John Skelton has won the competition per game performance."

Supposidely Skelton has been horrible in practice, and Kolb has been "acceptable".

As for the games? Well, the fans get to watch the games so we know the story there.

Interesting....................

If you don't already have it download the Iheartradio app and listen to Bickley and MJ on XTRA 910. Jurecki just might be the best cards radio guy out there. I even enjoy Bickley a lot. 5pm everyday for us RM.

 

[Darkside]

Really?

1) Increased practice and game reps with the 1st unit offense
2) Increased comfort with the starting quarterback's cadence
3) Increased reps with signals between QB and receivers
4) Increased comfort from offensive line about where a QB will or won't be in his dropback
5) More reps for timing between starting receivers and the quarterback on routes
6) Certainty to increase reps on plays the quarterback is most comfortable with
7) Increased reps for starting quarterback with starting receivers
8) Increased leadership from a real decision on who the starting quarterback is
9) End of questions from media/fans on who the starting quarterback is decreases distractions
10) Increased reps with QB gets receivers consistency with ball release point/placement from starter.

There are more. What is the downside to naming a quarterback right now? Delaying the embarrassment of folding up shop on another starting QB?

I think we're all looking at it wrong. It's not what the downsides are, it's what the upsides are. In my opinion Whis has already made up his mind about who the starter is (everyone can figure that out for themselves). But there's upside to keeping it going. Everything you named except # 9 Skelton already has. That's just my opinion. He's been throwing to these guys for 3 years now in the same system. I do think he needs more development time, but that time is past, to be frank, he'll have to get to it next year, because he split that time with Kolb already when they were being QB coached earlier. Practices are separate from being mentored. He'll get overtime, 24-7 develop time when he's starting anyway. More than he can handle probably.

The upsides are better though. I don't think these are things most people think about, but it's hugely important, especially considering Skelton is young. First is that you will see Thursday who is dying to start. So far I think Skelton, obviously, has showed more desperation for the job. I mean complete desperation (even though he looks totally composed). He wants this job.

Most importantly though, and this is super important, is that for Skelton especially, there's nothing like feeling you won the job. Not just sucked less, but won the damn job. Skelton needs to feel that. Needs to know it. And frankly so does everyone else on the team. No questions, no suspicions, no second-guessing. By playing it out it won't even be close and Skelton and our Oline and everyone else on this team will know he beat out a dude making millions and millions of dollars. That is essential going forward. You can't shut this thing down while questions remain, while people walk the fence, while even some fans are questioning. You let Skelton win the job decisively and you start preparing for the regular season with all ego's intact, all players' sense of fairness intact. That way everyone (not just Skelton lovers) is saying yes, he won that job, he deserves to start, give the dude a season to prove himself. It helps Skelton immensely and helps the rest of our team. It's crucial to not pull the plug.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

I dont necessarily agree with Doug & Wolf. Has anyone actually seen Kolb play better in camp? I was there for two days and Kolb was awful. I havent herd anyone report differently..

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont necessarily agree with Doug & Wolf. Has anyone actually seen Kolb play better in camp? I was there for two days and Kolb was awful. I havent herd anyone report differently..

This


I hadnt heard any reports from camp or practices that made it sound as thought Kolb looked particularly good there either.

 

[Shane]

This


I hadnt heard any reports from camp or practices that made it sound as thought Kolb looked particularly good there either.

Chris Sanders reported in his camp reports that Kolb looked better got ridiculed too cus he stated " I hate to say it but Kolb played better" Bodha reported how awful Skelton looked backing up the practice I witnessed. there have been a few others.

 

[Stout]

Good Christ, if this team tries to hand the job over to Blok and shove some 'he's better in practice' crap down our throats, I will swear off watching games until he's yanked. This is complete and utter crap. Kolb crumbles under pressure, in real-time game situations. Rob Johnson looked great in practice--and took sack after horrifying sack in real games. You know, those things that count--the games. If Kolb can't handle the pressure in the preseason, how will he handle it in the regular season? Ugh!

 

[Darkside]

Bunch of nervous nannies up in here. You're no different than Kolb, only it's forums. Even the chance of someone not starting and you're running right to hit the post or quote button. Straighten them panties dudes.

 

[Shane]

Bunch of nervous nannies up in here. You're no different than Kolb, only it's forums. Even the chance of someone not starting and you're running right to hit the post or reply button.