QB situation and solution

[earthsci]

The stats are deceptive; despite the 28th ranking, they were near the top in yards per attempt and efficiency rating.

They aren't deceptive. Pittsburgh ranked 28th in the NFL in passing because they ran the ball effectively and all of the time. I think that point was pretty clear.

 

[ajcardfan]

Don't get too mad about it Vince. I wanted Ben, you wanted Ben, many wanted Ben. He is a product of that system though. Pittsburgh had the 28th rated passing offense in the NFL, while they had the 2nd ranked rushing offense. Stats
The stats are deceptive; despite the 28th ranking, they were near the top in yards per attempt and efficiency rating.

If Ben R. has a game against the Colts/Pats winner like he had today, the Steelers lose.

 

[BigRedMO]

Other than political figures I dont hate anybody I have not met. I do not hate any Cardinal past or present. I dont see the need to attribute hatred to people who disagree with you. Everybody here wants the Cards to win. My opinion is that I just dont want to see the team waste more time on McCown. I dont think McCown has shown even in flashes the skills a QB needs to be successful. As I have said before I dont think he has vision to be a QB. I do not want him to play for the Cards for that reason. If he goes somewhere else and is successful then I will admit I am wrong but I will not harbor any dislike or hatred towards him. It is not personal to me. I want the Cards to win and I dont think McCown is able to make that happen.

 

[okcardzona]

I think Josh is going to get better, and he will be the Starter next year. Bring in a free agent QB to push him and to play if he gets hurt. That is the easyest way to the playoffs.

 

[Codeofhammurabi]

Roethlisberger is now 14-0 and in a conference championship game. As great as last year's draft was, this is gonna bug me for years.

Roethlisberger would not have done that for the Cardinals. He was surrounded by a great defense, and had a superb running game.

GO CARDS!!!

 

[D-Dogg]

Just think, we've got months and months of this on the horizon.

 

[BigRedMO]

My question to people who thing McCown should start is how do you explain that last game of the year? I know in one game even a HOFer can not look his best. As I recall that was the only game of the year that showed camera angles wide enough to really see the times he was not seeing open receivers or like those two end zone routes where he delivered the ball late allowing the safety to get to the ball. The announcers who were non-partisan were really on McCowns case. A guy can have an off day but he looked totally out of it all day. I do not recall even seeing a brief glimpse that he understood how to accomplish his job. Anway the question is how do explain his inability to see open guys and get the ball to them on routes over 10 yards. I know he can throw the short pass but what NFL QB can't.

 

[BigRedVol]

Regardless of whether McCown is the man or not, the Cards need another capable starting QB. No, Shaun King is NOT a capable starting QB.

What is wrong with JOHN NAVARRE??? I think Josh will be just fine and he will be the future of this franchise, but John has that chance as well. What we need, and all we need, is a replacement 3rd stringer for King. A mentor??? Possibly, either Brad Johnson or Kurt Warner could serve as a mentor to those 2, but will they suffice as 3rd stringers??? They both got replaced by younger blood this year, they should both feel fortunate for any team to give them any job of any type next season in the NFL.........

 

[D-Dogg]

What is wrong with JOHN NAVARRE??? I think Josh will be just fine and he will be the future of this franchise, but John has that chance as well. What we need, and all we need, is a replacement 3rd stringer for King. A mentor??? Possibly, either Brad Johnson or Kurt Warner could serve as a mentor to those 2, but will they suffice as 3rd stringers??? They both got replaced by younger blood this year, they should both feel fortunate for any team to give them any job of any type next season in the NFL.........

You know I don't have the same confidence in Josh as you do, but we see eye to eye on Navarre....

 

[Ryanwb]

Brad Johnson with a three year contract

He's going to be 37 when the season starts!

 

[okcardzona]

My question to people who thing McCown should start is how do you explain that last game of the year? I know in one game even a HOFer can not look his best. As I recall that was the only game of the year that showed camera angles wide enough to really see the times he was not seeing open receivers or like those two end zone routes where he delivered the ball late allowing the safety to get to the ball. The announcers who were non-partisan were really on McCowns case. A guy can have an off day but he looked totally out of it all day. I do not recall even seeing a brief glimpse that he understood how to accomplish his job. Anway the question is how do explain his inability to see open guys and get the ball to them on routes over 10 yards. I know he can throw the short pass but what NFL QB can't.

Just Wishful thinking on my part.

 

[GreenCard]

I kind of think Josh and John are the Vets. King is gone and we will bring in LeFlors,Campbell,Alex Smith or the kid from Conn.

 

[john h]

I don't post here a whole lot, but I'm here reading the board all the time. But I decided to throw in my two cents on our QB situation.

Knowing Green's track record with QB's, there is little doubt in my mind that there will be a different QB behind center next year. The question is who? Plus I think that this is our best bet to secure our QB of the future and top RB all in a two year plan.

Hear me out on this:

1. We sign Kurt Warner to a two year deal. Why? We have the receiving corps that will make any QB salivate.
2. We draft one of the RB studs this year.
3. This leaves us with the option of either drafting a top notch QB this year or next. Preferably next season when there is the possibility of a much deeper QB class.

Kurt starts for the next two years, which gives our QB of the future either one or two years on the bench soaking everything up.

I know that Kurt is not popular around here, but I believe that he can get us to the playoffs next year before any other QB that is going to be available.

I heard you out and I like the idea of Warner. He has a couple of years left in him and with our receivers and his experience I think he would have a reawaking. Add Warner & Henry and perhaps a FA OL and then perhaps a DL,CB,LB in the draft.

 

[john h]

If both Brad Johnson and Warner are been kicked out of bad teams, that actualy we've won in this season, why would they be our solution???

Almost any experienced QB in the NFL who has been a starter and is around 37 is going to get us light years ahead of where we were at QB this year. Johnson, Warner I can live with either. We in the end will have to develop our own long term solution. Could be McCown (I doubt it) or our other QB who I still think has a much better shot at becoming an effective NFL starter than McCown.

 

[john h]

There isn't a slam dunk option at QB out there for us. I would not be thrilled with either Johnson or Warner.

Anyone is going to be a thrill for me after McCown.

 

[Evil Ash]

My question to people who thing McCown should start is how do you explain that last game of the year? I know in one game even a HOFer can not look his best. As I recall that was the only game of the year that showed camera angles wide enough to really see the times he was not seeing open receivers or like those two end zone routes where he delivered the ball late allowing the safety to get to the ball. The announcers who were non-partisan were really on McCowns case. A guy can have an off day but he looked totally out of it all day. I do not recall even seeing a brief glimpse that he understood how to accomplish his job. Anway the question is how do explain his inability to see open guys and get the ball to them on routes over 10 yards. I know he can throw the short pass but what NFL QB can't.

The obsession that will just never end ...

Maybe it was just a bad game by Josh but who knows about the last week. We had a one-dimensional offense that played directly into their hands and that needs to be fixed immediately (whoever the starting QB is). Quit acting like that there are tons of QBs out there that would do fantastic with this team because I'd be surprised if any QB would run it. This teams offense goe well beyond the QB position ... if you can't see that I pity you.

Let me go further in my point, for those that watched the playoff games what did the QBs in those games that was so incredibly significant? The Answer not a damn thing. They rarely made a pass that was over 10 yards, missed wide open receivers, and relied heavily on YAC by WRs. The very same things that Josh did quite a bit of the season (although he did have some of the blame himself ... he didn't always perform to the best of his abilities) and bitched about was what almost all of the QBs did this weekend. Yet they would undeniably take this team to the playoffs. Yeah right.

 

[john h]

Josh is the man.

Get used to it.

And he will be just fine, given some decent offensive strategy and play calling.

No way is Green going to set him self up to look like a fool by starting McCown again next year. He has rode that horse once and once is enough. There will be another QB starting next year.

 

[john h]

I love how you can unequivocably say that. As if you actually think anyone believes that. 'Josh is the man' indeed. Unless you mean the man who throws for 90 yards in a game and it isn't that strange. Or that fumbles three times in a game and it's pretty normal. Etc, etc.

I'm not saying McCown won't someday develop---I don't think he will, and I don't think it looks like he will, but he may anyway---but I'm not so brash as to suggest, nay state without a doubt, that he is 'The Man'. Wow. Maybe he should win more than he loses before you try to claim that, eh?

"He is the man" is certainly a REACH!

 

[Evil Ash]

Almost any experienced QB in the NFL who has been a starter and is around 37 is going to get us light years ahead of where we were at QB this year. Johnson, Warner I can live with either. We in the end will have to develop our own long term solution. Could be McCown (I doubt it) or our other QB who I still think has a much better shot at becoming an effective NFL starter than McCown.

The grass is always greener strikes again. Did you watch either of these two play? I doubt it

 

[john h]

Roethlisberger is now 14-0 and in a conference championship game. As great as last year's draft was, this is gonna bug me for years.

You are not alone!!!!!!! He is only going to get better as this was a learning year.

 

[john h]

I am with you...I hope Josh tears it up next year and make all the doubters eat crow...

I expect each one of you--who hate Josh--to personally apologize to him next year when he takes us to a division title and a couple playoff wins

I continue to be amazed with post that say "we hate Josh". I do not "hate" any football player. I think Josh performed poorly this year and does not have much upside potential. He may be a great human being. There is no hate involved here. I hated Hitler. I admired Joe Montana. I think Josh McCown is a lousy QB not a lousy human being.

 

[BigRedMO]

Thanks for your pity Evil Ash, lol. I guess you are on the same flow chart that we were on with Plummer. First it was the offensive coordinators fault and then a couple years later the blame was finally shifted by the majority to Plummer. An offensive coordinator can call the plays but he cant complete the passes. That is for a QB to do. A QB also has to find the open guys. McCown cant do either of those based on his numbers. It was more than that final game that convinced me.

I guess your answer is that even though his QB rating is significantly lower then the current elite of the game, not including Vick who is really more of a running threat anyway, Mccown is in their league. I was hoping for an answer more substantive than that. Maybe someone could point something out in his play that I had missed (quick delivery, pocket presence , being a real student of the game who in his past made unexpected dramatic improvement, good mechanics, etc.) .

I agree with John H that Green will not go into next season with Mccown as the starter. He looked for every other option he had on the team at one point. After Mccown got the job back due to injury to Navarre the offense did not materially improve. I am convinced about one thing about Green. If it is not working he will not hesitate to change it. So Mccown will not start next year. However going round and round arguing the point is obviously not going to settle it since I cant get something more concrete in the way of needed skills that he has shown or an explanation of his poor showing in what should have been one of his better games. He was healthy and at the peak of his knowlege of the Cards offense unlike his first starts of his career. So I will wait for the inevitable.

 

[BigRedMO]

If someone could find a recent (end of season) quote by a well respected offensive coordinator, head coach or great QB praising Mccown's specific abilities that would be something maybe to help me believe in him.

An example a little off topic - President Jefferson Davis frequently would fire a general (Beauregard and Joe Johnston being the best examples) and then reappoint them later expecting them to perform better. Of course they performed the same way that hey had previously. It seriously hurt Davis's cause to do this instead of finding new generals. I doubt very seriously Green considers Davis a role model. He fired Mccown once. When he put him back in the line up there was no real improvement.

 

[MrY]

I don't see how anyone can expect Brad Johnson to be the answer for the Cards. I watched alot of Bronco games here in Albq and Brian Griese stunk up the place. If Johnson can't beat out Greise, I don't want him running the Cards.

 

[Evil Ash]

Thanks for your pity Evil Ash, lol. I guess you are on the same flow chart that we were on with Plummer. First it was the offensive coordinators fault and then a couple years later the blame was finally shifted by the majority to Plummer. An offensive coordinator can call the plays but he cant complete the passes. That is for a QB to do. A QB also has to find the open guys. McCown cant do either of those based on his numbers. It was more than that final game that convinced me.

Nice try for turning it completely on me. I did give Josh some of the blame if you read my post (I have the entire season). My point is that it is not that simple to 1) find a franchise QB that is not only available but will also fit your offense and 2) A scary fact that in the game of football it goes well beyond the play of one position.

I know you're a cardinals fan and we haven't seen things very often so let me explain a little more slowly for you. See the majority of the QBs in the playoffs have this thing referred to as a running game. Say it with me RUNNING GAME. This where the QB hands the ball off and the Rb gets the ball and plows forward to get positive yards. This then leads to something to make the offense open up with something known as a Playaction pass. Say it with me PLAYACTION PASS. This is when a QB pretends to hand off the ball and as a result have the LBs and safeties briefly go for the RB or freeze in their tracks, thus often resulting in an open receiver downfield (often in order for this to work you need a running game).

Those were just a few of the things that went well for those TEAMS in the playoffs that we have been unable to do for quite a while. Other things include pass blocking for more than 5 sec with regularity, having guards pull, the ability to run the screen, not being blown off the ball, ability to pick up the blitz, etc.

My point is those who are so obsessed with the one position that they often to ignore the rest of the TEAM. You see its a team sport and in order for plays to work it revolves around more than one guy doing what he is supposed to (ie. WRs running the right route and getting seperation, Olineman giving enough time for the WRs to run their routes and for the QB to get it to the open receiver, RB and TE either to catch the ball or pickup the blitz, etc)

I guess your answer is that even though his QB rating is significantly lower then the current elite of the game, not including Vick who is really more of a running threat anyway, Mccown is in their league. I was hoping for an answer more substantive than that. Maybe someone could point something out in his play that I had missed (quick delivery, pocket presence , being a real student of the game who in his past made unexpected dramatic improvement, good mechanics, etc.) .

1) Stats can often be misleading in terms of things such as QB play. For example, the QB rating system as it currently stands favors teams and QBs that run offenses such as the West Coast offense. They rely heavily on completion % and as you said what QB couldn't make a pass to an open to a receiver less than 10 yards away (Chad Pennington had an okay game on Saturday maybe even slightly higher than avg but his QB rating would make you think he had a great game).

2) I never said he was on the same level as those franchise QBs out there. The obsession with the position often makes people imagine things that aren't there (that QB never misses an open WR, he throws it accurately downfield every single time, etc.) If you read a lot of the threafds about QB play, you'd think QBs out there were like Superman and the truth is that is a complete and utter load of crap. See even those QBs rely on the rest of the team to do their jobs. Often they did the exact same things that Josh did throughout the year that we bitched about, but people ignore the facts that the players around them were probably better and they just buy into the hype (ie You'd think Big Ben was the 2nd coming of John Elway if you went on some of the board comments. If you take away the interceptions from his game on Saturday, it was a typical game for him ... normally taking just taking care of the ball and rarely passing it all over the field.).

3) Believe it or not during that final 4 game streak at the end of the year (even including that awful game at the end of the year), Josh was around the middle of the pack in terms of QB rating. For those of us who watch more games than just Cardinal games, know pretty well that the play of the avg QB in the league is mediocre at best.

I agree with John H that Green will not go into next season with Mccown as the starter. He looked for every other option he had on the team at one point. After Mccown got the job back due to injury to Navarre the offense did not materially improve. I am convinced about one thing about Green. If it is not working he will not hesitate to change it. So Mccown will not start next year. However going round and round arguing the point is obviously not going to settle it since I cant get something more concrete in the way of needed skills that he has shown or an explanation of his poor showing in what should have been one of his better games. He was healthy and at the peak of his knowlege of the Cards offense unlike his first starts of his career. So I will wait.

I love the sudden outbreak of telepathy that comes on this board sometimes. We no longer just know whats best for this team but we also know exactly what our coach is thinking even though he really hasn't said anything to prove your point. This board gets pretty damn funny sometimes.

Maybe Josh is the QB of the future, maybe he isn't. I honestly have no idea. I do know that is damn near impossible to really judge any QB in this system and the problems that this team faced. I also know that the available options at the position are incredibly lacking. See I live in this land known as reality, I don't wait for that unnamed great QB (what I often love about those obsessed with the position, they refuse to name a better QB out there and just assume that someone better is out there or the ones that they do name they haven't actually watched play) to come and save us, I'd prefer to fix the rest of the problems that for those of us who live in reality know are more of a priority.

I hope that we bring a QB for competition and that the best man wins the job. However with whats available, I'm not expecting much. Those that are are begging for disappointment.

I know I may come off as a real ***** with this argument, which I didn't really want to do but if I have to do so to prove a point then so be it