QB Situation- my $.02

[This_Guy]

So you are saying that shaun king was the piece that put them over the top?

I'll tell you what....I've leave you with the facts and you can draw your own conclusion. Fair enough?

Trent Dilfer started and finished the first 10 games before getting hurt in the 11th game when King replaced Dilfer.

Through 10 games, The Bucs were 6-4 and averaged 15.8 ppg.
The 5 games started by King, The Bucs were 4-1 and 19.2 ppg.

 

[clif]

You have no idea if this is true, and there's nothing about Green's track record that says, "Wait" when it comes to QB's.

I think zero TD's in three games says, "Give King a Shot" written in huge red letters.

every thing we say is "speculation"... so that doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

DG has a history of finding playmakers so history would suggest that the offense will be improved once he has another draft or so.

DG will sink or swim this year with McCown UNLESS he completely falls apart.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

As much as it pains me to say it, King gives us the best opportunity to win, especially with the way our defense has been playing. I'd live with McCown if he was creating big plays to go along with the turnovers (as he did in the final three games of 2003), but he's not doing this at all this year. In three games, he has essentially become Jake with a stronger arm but without Jake's big play capability. Not a good recipe for success. I understand why he's starting this week but I say he needs to be yanked at the first sign of mistake-prone football, because from all indications he has lost all confidence and we don't need that permeating to the rest of the offense, if it hasn't already.

 

[SECTION 11]

So your comparing our defense to Tampa Bays when King was there? LOL!

And why not? What's so funny about our defense holding ATL to 6 points and our offense pissing away a victory?

He's lucky Fitzgerald can play defense.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

McCown BIGGEST and most consistant mistake was not protecting the ball with two hands when avoiding sacks or trying to run that QB draw; learning how to protect the ball is something than can easily be corrected; and it SHOULD have been corrected prior to that game because it is something he had a problem with before (Pats game). McCown was ON-FIRE with his arm, and led this team to what should have been THREE TD's or FGs.

King would have been eaten alive in the Pats game; the only thing that saved a dozen more sacks is that McCown WAS running like a deer.

No his BIGGEST problem is that he has

1. no pocket precsense
2. Cant feel the rush
3. Runs too quickly (the McScramble)
4. Never, and I mean never steps up into the pocket to buy time. Instead just takes off running for his life.
5. Doesnt look downfield when scrambling


If you want to take a look at how an athletic mobile QB should play in this offense then take a look at Culpepper. I am not talking about throwing the ball to Moss, but more of his composure, when to run and when not to run, his pre snap reads and audibles. etc But the biggest thing he does well is his 'feel' in the pocket. He will stick in there as long as it takes w/o once looking at the rush. He just has that "Knack" something I dont believe McCown has at all!

 

[Redheart]

Or he would have thrown against the blitz with success, we'll never know.

Fair enough. IMO, he would have been blasted; that defense was coming from anywhere and everywhere and our OL was just horrible...hard to throw to a "good spot" when the blocking scheme is broke.

 

[Russ Smith]

McCown BIGGEST and most consistant mistake was not protecting the ball with two hands when avoiding sacks or trying to run that QB draw; learning how to protect the ball is something than can easily be corrected; and it SHOULD have been corrected prior to that game because it is something he had a problem with before (Pats game). McCown was ON-FIRE with his arm, and led this team to what should have been THREE TD's or FGs.

.

Dave Krieg played what 30 years and never stopped fumbling, Tony Banks, guys who fumble tend to do so for their careers. You can certainly get better, but I doubt Josh has never been coached about it before.

The big problem is he has no sense of where others are around him. It's like counting cards in gambling, you have to see where the guys are you can see, and assume the ones you can't see are trying to get you. Josh doesn't do that he assumes if he can't see them, they're not there.

 

[SECTION 11]

No his BIGGEST problem is that he has

1. no pocket precsense
2. Cant feel the rush
3. Runs too quickly (the McScramble)
4. Never, and I mean never steps up into the pocket to buy time. Instead just takes off running for his life.
5. Doesnt look downfield when scrambling


If you want to take a look at how an athletic mobile QB should play in this offense then take a look at Culpepper. I am not talking about throwing the ball to Moss, but more of his composure, when to run and when not to run, his pre snap reads and audibles. etc But the biggest thing he does well is his 'feel' in the pocket. He will stick in there as long as it takes w/o once looking at the rush. He just has that "Knack" something I dont believe McCown has at all!

You're exactly right. Maybe McCown will get it, and maybe he won't. In the mean time, King's show much better presence.

 

[clif]

I'll tell you what....I've leave you with the facts and you can draw your own conclusion. Fair enough?

Trent Dilfer started and finished the first 10 games before getting hurt in the 11th game when King replaced Dilfer.

Through 10 games, The Bucs were 6-4 and averaged 15.8 ppg.
The 5 games started by King, The Bucs were 4-1 and 19.2 ppg.

fact

shaun king career passer rating 75.6
jay fiedler 77.3
jake plummer 71.8
brett favre 87.1
chad pennington 97.2
marc bulger 88.2
duante culpepper 89.8

 

[TheCardFan]

I'll tell you what....I've leave you with the facts and you can draw your own conclusion. Fair enough?

Trent Dilfer started and finished the first 10 games before getting hurt in the 11th game when King replaced Dilfer.

Through 10 games, The Bucs were 6-4 and averaged 15.8 ppg.
The 5 games started by King, The Bucs were 4-1 and 19.2 ppg.

Your arrogant 'know it all' attitude and obvious bias for King clouds your ability to make a compelling statement.

Your obviously smarter than Denny Green, everyone on this board, and many NFL GM's for not signing and starting the great Sean King. :notworthy

Sean King for President.

Hey, could we trade King for a #1 pick next year? Might as well trade this amazing talent since we won't use him on our team.

 

[clif]

No his BIGGEST problem is that he has

1. no pocket precsense
2. Cant feel the rush
3. Runs too quickly (the McScramble)
4. Never, and I mean never steps up into the pocket to buy time. Instead just takes off running for his life.
5. Doesnt look downfield when scrambling


If you want to take a look at how an athletic mobile QB should play in this offense then take a look at Culpepper. I am not talking about throwing the ball to Moss, but more of his composure, when to run and when not to run, his pre snap reads and audibles. etc But the biggest thing he does well is his 'feel' in the pocket. He will stick in there as long as it takes w/o once looking at the rush. He just has that "Knack" something I dont believe McCown has at all!

I think you could say the same thing about Mcnabb in his first few years in Philly.

Same for a bunch of Qb's

is McCown like Mcnabb? no, but most Qbs with athletic ability will try and run first in this league

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Your arrogant 'know it all' attitude and obvious bias for King clouds your ability to make a compelling statement.

I'm not sure if I'm arrogant or not, but I have no bias for or against Shawn King or Josh McCown. In fact I was really rooting for McCown to make it not only because his success would correlate into wins, but also because he appears to be a humble family man with good intentions and a solid work ethic. That being said, he's simply not cutting it right now and my unbiased opinion is that King should be starting because he gives us the best opportunity to win.

 

[Redheart]

Interesting...

Fumbles aside...I know, no small thing...BUT...

Who looked like a better QB in that game, McCown or Vick?

 

[SECTION 11]

I'm not sure if I'm arrogant or not, but I have no bias for or against Shawn King or Josh McCown. In fact I was really rooting for McCown to make it not only because his success would correlate into wins, but also because he appears to be a humble family man with good intentions and a solid work ethic. That being said, he's simply not cutting it right now and my unbiased opinion is that King should be starting because he gives us the best opportunity to win.

I completely agree with this.
I haven't seen anything on the field or on this board that convinces me otherwise, at all.

 

[TheCardFan]

Dave Krieg played what 30 years and never stopped fumbling, Tony Banks, guys who fumble tend to do so for their careers. You can certainly get better, but I doubt Josh has never been coached about it before. Krieg and Banks fumbled when nobody hit them, from center, when running, when setting up to throw, and when being hit...a bit of a difference.

The big problem is he has no sense of where others are around him. It's like counting cards in gambling, you have to see where the guys are you can see, and assume the ones you can't see are trying to get you. Josh doesn't do that he assumes if he can't see them, they're not there. How can you say what he is thinking? IMO, I believe he is trying to do to much and had been under a significant amount of pressure that not very many QB's could overcome. He is young and talented but wether or not that talent turns into a QB of the future is TBD. King is a career back-up type player and for good reasons. I don't see King winning any of the last three games...but we will see.[/QUOTE]

 

[This_Guy]

fact

shaun king career passer rating 75.6
jay fiedler 77.3
jake plummer 71.8
brett favre 87.1
chad pennington 97.2
marc bulger 88.2
duante culpepper 89.8

ummmmm.

you do realize that McCown's career passer rating is 65.6, right?

 

[clif]

ummmmm.

you do realize that McCown's career passer rating is 65.6, right?

and your point is that King is way better than him?

based on what?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you could say the same thing about Mcnabb in his first few years in Philly.

Same for a bunch of Qb's

is McCown like Mcnabb? no, but most Qbs with athletic ability will try and run first in this league

I think any kind of even vague comparison to McNabb is beyond words ridiculous - in McNabb's first full season as starter and only 2ND in the league -with a bad O-line, no running game and even worse receivers he took his team to the second round of the playoffs.

All the comparisons people are making between Josh and ANYONE remotely successful need to stop at this point - 1-5 as a starter - never having one game where his offense puts up more than 2 touchdowns - 34 sacks - all of that is bad news - and don't start telling me that all rookie (which McCown isn't) QB take a lot of sacks - because while that's true - the numbers aren't nearly as astronomical as the sacks on Josh - ZERO pocket presence/awareness from this kid . . . it looks like there was a reason he couldn't hack it in DIV I ball and was a late 3rd round pick with all his measureables - he just doesn't seem to have it upstairs - as far as smarts or toughness . . . I still can't believe he was crying in the post game presser last night.

 

[SECTION 11]

I'm not done with McCown, but I do think he needs to see somebody run our offense in a way that he should be.

I don't think King has more upside, that's not the point. The point is I think the film on King operating Green's offense will help McCown.

I don't buy for one second the, "It'll hurt his development" argument. If his psyche is that fragile then I don't want him as our QB anyway.

Starting King, if only for a game or two, will go a long way towards helping McCown.

 

[SECTION 11]

and your point is that King is way better than him?

based on what?

Maybe based on the first post on this thread? Maybe on every post he's had on this forum?

I gotta put you on ignore. I can't handle this anymore.

 

[This_Guy]

based on what?

Seriously?

Based on every single objective metric that exists.

TDs, Ints, experience, comp %, win %, etc.

edit: and that has nothing to do with my opinion.

 

[TheCardFan]

I'm not sure if I'm arrogant or not, but I have no bias for or against Shawn King or Josh McCown. In fact I was really rooting for McCown to make it not only because his success would correlate into wins, but also because he appears to be a humble family man with good intentions and a solid work ethic. That being said, he's simply not cutting it right now and my unbiased opinion is that King should be starting because he gives us the best opportunity to win.

How does King give us a better chance? Green sees them everyday in practice as do the rest of the team and coaches. We saw King for 10 plays. King didn't outplay McCown in the preseason and he was playing against 2nd stringers.

 

[Redheart]

I'm not done with McCown, but I do think he needs to see somebody run our offense in a way that he should be.

I don't think King has more upside, that's not the point. The point is I think the film on King operating Green's offense will help McCown.

I don't buy for one second the, "It'll hurt his development" argument. If his psyche is that fragile then I don't want him as our QB anyway.

Starting King, if only for a game or two, will go a long way towards helping McCown.

You make some sense here, but Green as already made the call. McCown back in.

Let the second-guessing and ankle-bitiing continue...

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

McCown should have played at least one season, perhaps two, in NFL Europe. It's quite obvious that his pocket presence leaves a lot to be desired and that could have improved with the added in-game experience. Also throwing him in there in certain blowouts and letting the defense tee off on him was probably a bad learning environment. All this while backing up and getting little game experience behind two quarterbacks we had no intentions of re-signing. Another example of Arizona Cardinal player mismanagement.

King needs to be starting.

 

[clif]

I think any kind of even vague comparison to McNabb is beyond words ridiculous - in McNabb's first full season as starter and only 2ND in the league -with a bad O-line, no running game and even worse receivers he took his team to the second round of the playoffs.

All the comparisons people are making between Josh and ANYONE remotely successful need to stop at this point - 1-5 as a starter - never having one game where his offense puts up more than 2 touchdowns - 34 sacks - all of that is bad news - and don't start telling me that all rookie (which McCown isn't) QB take a lot of sacks - because while that's true - the numbers aren't nearly as astronomical as the sacks on Josh - ZERO pocket presence/awareness from this kid . . . it looks like there was a reason he couldn't hack it in DIV I ball and was a late 3rd round pick with all his measureables - he just doesn't seem to have it upstairs - as far as smarts or toughness . . . I still can't believe he was crying in the post game presser last night.

so you're telling me that the points that LV made were not the same things said about mcnabb at the start of his career??

in no way am I saying he is mcnabb, but those are the same things they said about mcnabb and others.