question about next years philosophy....

[Arizona's Finest]

Ok i gotta a question that just popped into my head.....

Part of why the suns were able to run up and down last season was their refusal to foul people with an easy path to the basket. Now with enforcers like KT and Grant, that is most likely not going to be the case. Still, i know the Suns want to keep up their running ways and the lack of fouling combined with Nash, was the biggest reason we could out run most all other teams. So its obviously a give and take because fouling in the paint will obviously slow up the game.

Which side of this tug of war will end up winning? Will they employ "contest all layups" against certain teams and not others? Will they run less?

 

[fordronken]

I think the rule will be "only foul if you have a good backup and your name is not Amare Stoudemire".

 

[boisesuns]

Maybe we could start a "play defense" policy?

 

[PhxGametime]

Raja Bell gets about as many Fouls as Voskuhl did, when he got playing time, as well...


Count ME in, for those that are worried about Team...

 

[Treesquid PhD]

I think you can do both; which is not hack and play great D.

The premise of challanging shots without hacking will likely remain, the difference will be that players like Thomas and Grant will be counted on to get in position to grab defensive rebounds and outlet pass.

One of the things that drove me nuts about the team last year is that they challanged shots but were always out of position in doing so, often 3 guys going for the block would leave the middle and weakside wide open for drives and camping bigmen and also as a result open to offensive rebounds too.

The difference will be instead of an open lane Thomas should be there to challange anyone driving the middle and should give the Suns three top 50 rebounders on the court at the same time limiting the offensive rebounds and wide open drive lanes.

 

[PhxGametime]

Remember that KT isn't very athletic, or a shot-blocker... so half the time, the player driving will kick it out and the other half, KT is likely to commit a foul. Same with Grant, Burke, etc...


Remember that JJ year before, shot a lot of 3PTers but didn't make a lot (but almost double than what Bell did last year), which is much different than Bell hardly making any and hardly shooting any... I do like that Jones makes a lot given minutes (at good clip) and that's he young, cheap...


Remember that, for everybody saying the Team will run even more because of KT, that he won't get every rebound and when he's on break, the outlet passer (usually the trail man) will probably be passing by KT and IMO Q and JJ are better runners than Bell... Diaw and Jones should be decent runners though for the bench


Remember that when Teams wanted to stop Q (that period of time, they shut him down from 3) they did, and with 1 less 3PT shooter, Teams will sprint out to 3PT shooters (that aren't quite as good)...


Remember that Marion is back to SF (where as the biggest Marion fan on board) the same player everybody wanted to Trade at that position and people always complained of his unwillingness to penetrate from 3PT area on NBA SF's...


etc. etc. IMO there are a lot of worries for ME and I probably only got a few of em. Remember that with Stoudemire, Marion, Johnson, and Marbury - the team was near Last Place and while Nash is better fit than Marbury... Marion's best position may be the PF spot now and Bell is nowhere near JJ.


I do like the Diaw, Jones, pick-ups recently but IMO everyone is giving Bell and KT too much credit to turn around defense (which are 2 average defenders at respective positions)... I do think both will help on help defense and maybe that's the area the Team wanted to address but these are not shut-down defenders, IMO. I did like KT Trade outside of giving away Pick but IMO the Team probably got Bell to replace JJ... it only takes another mental midget to know, that if I had got lowballed twice, that I'd leave too...

 

[George O'Brien]

Not all fouls are created equal. Some fouls are simply stupid fouls, some fouls are unavoidable, and some fouls tactical.

STUPID FOULS
Stupid fouls include challenging a non-shooter with a second left on the clock taking a three or a really diffiicult shot. The term "bailing the shooter out" is something that young players get caught up in alll the time. There are numerous other stupid fouls that were Voskuhl trademarks such as pressing much quicker guys beyond the arc, leaning when trying to draw a charge, and making late ticky tacks when a guy is making a layup.

My biggest frustration with Voskuhl was not that he fouled so much, but that he never seemed to get any better at avoiding stupid fouls.

UNAVOIDABLE FOULS
An example of an unavoidable foul is one that comes from trying to hold back someone trying to esablish position in the low block. The low post offensive player is initiating contact and trying to force his way through, so it is not possible to avoid contact. Low post defenders will get called for grabbing as event he best of them get tied up.

It is notable that most of the top inside offensive players let someone else do the heavy lifting in defending the low block. KT and Grant are just as foul prone as Voskuhl, but their fouls are generally low block fouls and not stupid ones.

Perimeter defense will generate unavoidable fouls, but good technique will make sure they aren't stupid ones. I think they showed some improvement last season with fewer stupid fouls, but they have a long way to go to actually defend without them.

TACTICAL FOULS
Probably the most significant part of D'Antoni's strategy is to avoid tactical fouls. Most notably he rejects the "no layups" doctrine that many teams adhere to.

The logic behind "no layups" is actually pretty straight forward. Most players will hit over 90% of their layups but less than 70% of their foul shots. So if it is obvious the guy is going to score, fouling hard enough to prevent the layup cuts down on the points being scored.

There is also an intimidation factor. If the offensive player thinks he might be fouled hard, he is more likely to alter his shot and miss.

Obvously, to enforce the no layups policy, the team needs a lot of interchangable big guys. "No layups" makes no sense when it means more fouls for Amare and Marion.

Does adding KT and Grant mean the Suns will move to a "no layups" policy? Last seaon D'Antoni's public statements was that he did not want to slow the game down and let their slower opponents catch their breath. There was also a realization that too many attemtps to prevent layups ended up in three point plays. It is very hard to ensure that an opponet doesn't get the layup without getting hit with a flagrant foul call.

One aspect of the "no layups" policy is that it makes a team's defense appear to be better than it really is. The primary measure of defensive efficiency is "opposing team's shooting percentage" and eliminating layups reduces that statistic. But it doesn't necessarily improve the point differential.

Bottom line - I'd say the Suns will do somewhat more tactical fouling than last season simply because they can. However, I doubt it will be as widely used as with other teams.

 

[mribnik]

You know, if we played defense the exact same way we did last year, except we got more defensive rebounds, we'd be in great shape. The initial defense was more than adequate last year, except we gave up too many rebounds. With KT in here, we'll do fine.

 

[Mainstreet]

You know, if we played defense the exact same way we did last year, except we got more defensive rebounds, we'd be in great shape. The initial defense was more than adequate last year, except we gave up too many rebounds. With KT in here, we'll do fine.

This is an excellent point!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You know, if we played defense the exact same way we did last year, except we got more defensive rebounds, we'd be in great shape. The initial defense was more than adequate last year, except we gave up too many rebounds. With KT in here, we'll do fine.

Ummm......you realize we gave up 100 points a game many of which were lay ups right....i realize about the more field goal attempts but there were many a time where we just looked like we were waiting to get to the other end of the floor. Against the premier defensive teams especially, I do agree that KT's rebounding will help us quite a bit though.

You are right in that we are not THAT far off. If we improve by 10 % our defense and rebounding while maintaining our scoring, we will be formidable

 

[George O'Brien]

Remember that KT isn't very athletic, or a shot-blocker... so half the time, the player driving will kick it out and the other half, KT is likely to commit a foul. Same with Grant, Burke, etc...

Commit a foul or have one called? KT averaged almost 36 minutes a game last season, so either none of the fouls were called or something doesn't add up here

Remember that JJ year before, shot a lot of 3PTers but didn't make a lot (but almost double than what Bell did last year), which is much different than Bell hardly making any and hardly shooting any...

Johnson
03-04 83-272 - 30.5%
04-05 177-370 - 47.8%

Bell
03-04 62-172 - 37.3%
04-05 54-134 - 40.3%

Bell shot fewer three pointers, but he still led his team in attemtps and was second in percentage (Lopen had about a third the number of attemtps).

What does this prove? Who knows. Bell is moving from an offense that was not geared to shooting the three pointer nor did they have a first rate point guard.

I do like that Jones makes a lot given minutes (at good clip) and that's he young, cheap...

I agree. Jones was the Pacers best three point shooter while still making the transition from from college PF to wing.

Remember that, for everybody saying the Team will run even more because of KT, that he won't get every rebound and when he's on break, the outlet passer (usually the trail man) will probably be passing by KT and IMO Q and JJ are better runners than Bell

I'm not sure what this supposed to mean, but a big part of it seems to be that you are convinced that Bell is REALLY REALLY SLOW. For some reason, you seem to be the only observer I've come across that feels that way. The Suns personnel all say that Bell is a lot faster than JJ and Q.

Hoopshype certainly gives a different impression:

Very aggressive on the defensive end... More skilled than most people think on the offensive end... Runs the floor like a deer.

My guess is that Bell doesn't look fast because of Sloan's scheme, but I think you are just wrong on this one.

... Diaw and Jones should be decent runners though for the bench

It's hard to know how much these guys will play, but both are considered reasonably athletic.

Remember that when Teams wanted to stop Q (that period of time, they shut him down from 3) they did, and with 1 less 3PT shooter, Teams will sprint out to 3PT shooters (that aren't quite as good)...

Not as good as Q? There are over 100 NBA players with better three point shooting percentages than Q Richardson had last season.

Remember that Marion is back to SF (where as the biggest Marion fan on board) the same player everybody wanted to Trade at that position and people always complained of his unwillingness to penetrate from 3PT area on NBA SF's...

I really like what Marion brings to the Suns and yes, I want him to got the basket more.

etc. etc. IMO there are a lot of worries for ME and I probably only got a few of em. Remember that with Stoudemire, Marion, Johnson, and Marbury - the team was near Last Place and while Nash is better fit than Marbury... Marion's best position may be the PF spot now and Bell is nowhere near JJ.

Bell is not as good as JJ, but I'm not convinced the drop is going to be as big as you seem to think.

I do like the Diaw, Jones, pick-ups recently but IMO everyone is giving Bell and KT too much credit to turn around defense (which are 2 average defenders at respective positions)...

Average?

I do think both will help on help defense and maybe that's the area the Team wanted to address but these are not shut-down defenders, IMO. I did like KT Trade outside of giving away Pick but IMO the Team probably got Bell to replace JJ... it only takes another mental midget to know, that if I had got lowballed twice, that I'd leave too...

You really believe that JJ left because the Suns did not offer the max immediately? I don't. I think he left because JJ thinks he's going to become as superstar and he won't get the recognition in Phoenix.

I think he's crazy along with being immature. I love his talent and wanted the Suns to keep him, but he's not a superstar and IMHO he was a huge beneficiary of playing with Nash and Amare.

 

[Billythekid]

There are over 100 NBA players with better three point shooting percentages than Q Richardson had last season.

I'd take Q over 80 of them.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'd take Q over 80 of them.

Because of his shooting or inspite of his shooting?

 

[elindholm]

Nice (earlier) rebuttal, George.

I'm thrilled for anyone to take open three-pointers if they are at or near the 40% threshold. It's basically always a good shot under those circumstances, unless Stoudemire is wide open for a dunk at the same time.

The question is how readily the likes of Bell, Jones, and even Jackson can get to the open spots on the floor and fire away.

One advantage Richardson had (and believe me, I understood his weaknesses) was that he could shoot from anywhere, including a step or so behind the line, and it didn't affect his (admittedly mediocre) percentage.

Johnson, as we saw in the three-point shootout at All-Star weekend, needs more time to get his shot off, and he was never particularly fluid in finding the open spot from the half-court offense. With his percentage so high, why didn't he shoot more? Because he couldn't help in creating the opportunities for himself.

Marion, as we know, is much more effective from the corners than from out top. If a three-point bomber has restrictions on where he can be effective from, that diminishes the power of his overall percentage.

So if Bell and Jones can shoot 40%, that's great, but the question remains what kind of 40% it is. Can Bell, in particular, shoot half a dozen threes a game, under a variety of circumstances, and still maintain that accuracy? Or is he one of those "situational" three-point shooters that needs everything just right in order to be comfortable taking the shot? Not having seen him play much, I don't know, but that will be one of the critical questions with respect to his role in the offense.

 

[SirStefan32]

With Nash and Stoudemire, there will be plenty of open shots for Marion, Jimmy Jack, Jones, and Bell. The question is- Are they gonna hit them.

If they can hit those open shots, the Suns might be even better than last year. If they can't.... than I am worried.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

With Nash and Stoudemire, there will be plenty of open shots for Marion, Jimmy Jack, Jones, and Bell. The question is- Are they gonna hit them.

If they can hit those open shots, the Suns might be even better than last year. If they can't.... than I am worried.

You hit the nail on the head here, this will be the thing that will make or break the team. Still, there is little doubt as to who the best team in the Western Conference is. Maybe with JJ we could get consideration, but the Spurs are in dynasty mode here, and Fins is jumping on for the ring. Good riddance, hope he gets "maloned".

 

[Chaplin]

Come on now. Those issues were going to be there whether Finley signed with us or not. Besides, Finley wasn't exactly a lights out shooter either.

It's over. Finally. Get over it. It's not worth worrying about.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh there is no question that the Spurs are the best team in the Western Conference, and probably in the entire NBA, but I do not think they are untouchable.

Suns just need to play their game, worry about playing the best THEY can play, and not worry about San Antonio.

Nash is the best PG in the NBA, God only knows how good Amare is going to be. Last year he added that jumper to his game, I am curious to see what he's going to add to his game this year.

Then you have Marion. I was never really crazy about him, but he is a hell of a player too.

Additions of Kurt Thomas and Brian Grant are very important too. Both of them play good defense, and both of them can hit open jumpers. They will fit in very well.

Again, if Bell, Jimmy Jack, and the rest of out 2's and 3's can hit those threes, I am not worried at all.

And we still have that trade exeption....

 

[SirStefan32]

Come on now. Those issues were going to be there whether Finley signed with us or not. Besides, Finley wasn't exactly a lights out shooter either.

It's over. Finally. Get over it. It's not worth worrying about.

Of course those issues were gonna be there either way, but I would feel a bit better if a proven NBA vet who can do a lot of things was in the Suns uniform. It's not the end of the world, and I agree it's not worth worrying about. He chose the Spurs- life goes on.

 

[elindholm]

Nash is the best PF in the NBA

D'Antoni is really getting to you.

 

[haverford]

Nash is the best PF in the NBA

D'Antoni is really getting to you.

 

[SirStefan32]

Nash is the best PF in the NBA

D'Antoni is really getting to you.

LOL, shut up! At least I didn't suggest Spurs sign Finley and then trade him to Phoenix for our trade exeption.

 

[elindholm]

At least I didn't suggest Spurs sign Finley and then trade him to Phoenix for our trade exeption.

Can't they still do that? Come on, BC, get on the phone!

 

[SirStefan32]

LOL

 

[fordronken]

I thought Finley was gonna sign with the Suns. Hmm, I wonder whose sources are more reliable...Elindholm or Marc Stein...