Question for Harry.

[slanidrac16]

I'd like to know your opinion. What would be the best move for the Cards to solve their rb situation.

1. Give of a pick for Bennett( and just how high of a pick)?

2. Sign Lamont Jordan( I don't know if he is a free agent).

3. Give up a pick for Travis Henry ( and just how high of a pick)?

4. Forget about any f/a running backs and just draft one( Who and when)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[GreenCard]

First,where did these teams find Bennett,Jordan and Henry and where did they get RBs good enough to take their jobs away?

 

[slanidrac16]

First,where did these teams find Bennett,Jordan and Henry and where did they get RBs good enough to take their jobs away?

I guess I see where you stand. However, in todays NFL a team can turn things around quickly. One might think it's better to fill our rb need with a proven commodity and use the draft to strengthen other shortcomings on the team.

 

[GreenCard]

Just pulling your chain a little until Harry gives you his answer.

 

[Southpaw]

The candidates you mention have one thing in common. 2nd string who got demoted by better backs. Whywould you want them as premier backs ?

 

[TheCardFan]

The candidates you mention have one thing in common. 2nd string who got demoted by better backs. Whywould you want them as premier backs ?

Marshall Faulk was traded to make way for Edgerrin James.
Corey Dillon was traded to make way for Rudi Johnson.

Faulk was in his prime when he was traded...Dillon was coming off 7 straight 1000yd seasons until he was forced to split time with Rudi...very similar to the Henry/McGahee situation (until Henry got hurt).

I am pretty sure we would have taken Faulk in 1998/1999 or Dillon last year. Faulk, Dillon, and Henry are not 2nd string backs....Let's not make the same mistake again.

 

[Russ Smith]

The argument in the other thread where the Bills fan is saying McGahee lit up bad defenses doesn't hold water, so did Henry in HIS 2 seasons over 1000 yards, with one exception, for some reason he's had some huge days against teh Dolphins who always have a good defense.

He's intriguing, wasn't beat up in college because he was a backup most of the time, nearly 1000 carries already in the NFL so he's not as "fresh" as Jordan is but probably cheaper to get. Looks to be a pretty mediocre receiver, Green usually wants a RB who can catch the ball but it doesn't have to be his starter. Didn't score at all this year but has proven in 2 other years he can get in the endzone.

I'd certainly pursue it to see how available he really is.

 

[GreenCard]

Well,that settles it,let's buy one and draft one.

 

[Snakester]

Free agent RBs. I would go after Edgerrin James first. As far as Travis Henry Maybe a third rounder. This draft is way to strong on RBs to give up much for a free agent. If I were going to draft I would take either Cedric Benson in the first round or JJ Arrington in the second round.

 

[DieHardFromMO]

The argument in the other thread where the Bills fan is saying McGahee lit up bad defenses doesn't hold water, so did Henry in HIS 2 seasons over 1000 yards, with one exception, for some reason he's had some huge days against teh Dolphins who always have a good defense.

He's intriguing, wasn't beat up in college because he was a backup most of the time, nearly 1000 carries already in the NFL so he's not as "fresh" as Jordan is but probably cheaper to get. Looks to be a pretty mediocre receiver, Green usually wants a RB who can catch the ball but it doesn't have to be his starter. Didn't score at all this year but has proven in 2 other years he can get in the endzone.

I'd certainly pursue it to see how available he really is.

Willis McGahee played against the NFC West this year Russ. He had 4 games against Arizona, St Louis, San Francisco and Seattle. He did not go up against the Redskins defense this season.

 

[Southpaw]

Marshall Faulk was traded to make way for Edgerrin James.
Corey Dillon was traded to make way for Rudi Johnson.

Faulk was in his prime when he was traded...Dillon was coming off 7 straight 1000yd seasons until he was forced to split time with Rudi...very similar to the Henry/McGahee situation (until Henry got hurt).

I am pretty sure we would have taken Faulk in 1998/1999 or Dillon last year. Faulk, Dillon, and Henry are not 2nd string backs....Let's not make the same mistake again.

My memory tells me differently about Faulk and Dillon. Both guys gave their teams ultimatums to trade them away. They didn't get displaced by better players at the time. James worked out well, but Rudi is a mediocre back and Dillon is huge for the Patriots.

 

[TheCardFan]

My memory tells me differently about Faulk and Dillon. Both guys gave their teams ultimatums to trade them away. They didn't get displaced by better players at the time. James worked out well, but Rudi is a mediocre back and Dillon is huge for the Patriots.

Wally...Faulk was shocked and never gave an ultimatum. It was a draft day deal than was a total surprise...They traded Faulk and drafted James.

Rudi is mediocre? He broke Dillons single season rushing record (1454/yds) and had 12 td's...more than Corey ever scored in Cincy. Rudi played for a mediocre team...while Dillon played for one of the most dominant teams in history.

Right now...the Cardinals would be lucky to have Faulk(especially at the time of the trade), Edgerrin James, Rudi Johnson, Corey Dillon, Travis Henry, or Willis McGahee.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Lamont Jordan never started for the Jets and is behind Curtis Martin. I dont buy the arguement that he was 'displaced' and is not that good b/c he couldnt beat out Curtis Martin. Jordan will be a great p/u for someone.

 

[Southpaw]

Wally...Faulk was shocked and never gave an ultimatum. It was a draft day deal than was a total surprise...They traded Faulk and drafted James.

Rudi is mediocre? He broke Dillons single season rushing record (1454/yds) and had 12 td's...more than Corey ever scored in Cincy. Rudi played for a mediocre team...while Dillon played for one of the most dominant teams in history.

Right now...the Cardinals would be lucky to have Faulk(especially at the time of the trade), Edgerrin James, Rudi Johnson, Corey Dillon, Travis Henry, or Willis McGahee.

Faulk was in a contract dispute with the Colts when he was traded and didn't want to [play for the Colts any longer. He was traded to the Rams for a 2nd and 5th pick. Colts took a shot and won. I remember Faulk's CYA comments. He was delighted to get out of Indy, and feigned surprise for the PR.

Dillon was in a virtual sit down strike and vowed not to play for the Bengals again. Rudi played on 1 year contract for the Bengals last year and hasn't resigned yet.

 

[abomb]

Marshall Faulk was traded to make way for Edgerrin James.
Corey Dillon was traded to make way for Rudi Johnson.

Faulk was in his prime when he was traded...Dillon was coming off 7 straight 1000yd seasons until he was forced to split time with Rudi...very similar to the Henry/McGahee situation (until Henry got hurt).

I was also reminded this weekend that Jerome Bettis was traded from the LA Rams to make way for Lawrence Phillips.

A-Bomb

 

[Russ Smith]

Willis McGahee played against the NFC West this year Russ. He had 4 games against Arizona, St Louis, San Francisco and Seattle. He did not go up against the Redskins defense this season.

Oh I know but look at the 2 years where Henry had his best years, he had some big games against weak defenses too.

I'm not saying McGahee is Jim Brown or anything just that the argument that it was the schedule that made him look better than Henry is hard to totally agree with, his best game of the year this year was New England. He certainly started against some tough defenses, NE, Jets, Baltimore and Jax I don't deny that, but in his past good seasons he did about what McGahee did this year, lit up the weaker teams.

My understanding is McGahee's blocking was a big reason they made the move, he's a much better blitz pickup guy. If you look Bledsoe had 4 games this year where he was sacked more than 3 times, 4 twice, 7 twice, and ALL 4 games were games Henry started including 7 against the Raiders(so it wasn't just the schedule). He was sacked 24 times in the games Henry started, 13 in the games McGahee started, so I'm assuming that has a LOT to do with why they made the switch.

 

[TheCardFan]

I was also reminded this weekend that Jerome Bettis was traded from the LA Rams to make way for Lawrence Phillips.

A-Bomb

Or when we cut Garrison Hearst for Leland McElroy.

 

[Matt]

My understanding is McGahee's blocking was a big reason they made the move, he's a much better blitz pickup guy. If you look Bledsoe had 4 games this year where he was sacked more than 3 times, 4 twice, 7 twice, and ALL 4 games were games Henry started including 7 against the Raiders(so it wasn't just the schedule). He was sacked 24 times in the games Henry started, 13 in the games McGahee started, so I'm assuming that has a LOT to do with why they made the switch.

ding! ding! ding! ding! we have a winner.

McGahee as a blocker makes Henry look like a kicker.

 

[TheCardFan]

Faulk was in a contract dispute with the Colts when he was traded and didn't want to [play for the Colts any longer. He was traded to the Rams for a 2nd and 5th pick. Colts took a shot and won. I remember Faulk's CYA comments. He was delighted to get out of Indy, and feigned surprise for the PR.

Dillon was in a virtual sit down strike and vowed not to play for the Bengals again. Rudi played on 1 year contract for the Bengals last year and hasn't resigned yet.

Wally...your point was this:

Originally Posted by wallyburger
The candidates you mention have one thing in common. 2nd string who got demoted by better backs. Whywould you want them as premier backs ?

My point is that 1200/1300/1400 yard RB's don't get traded because someone beats them out. It is for other reasons...like Faulk, like Dillon, and like Henry. Henry stated from the time that McGahee was drafted that he is the starter and won't settle for #2. That is very similar to Faulk and Dillon and his talent is right up there as well.

One more example...Ricky Wiliams (who was rumored to be the guy the Colts wanted when they traded Faulk) was the starter in New Orleans and they drafted Duece McAllister. Ricky was coming off 2 straight 1k/yr season including his best season as a pro 1245yds.

The point is...why not Henry? Why is he any different than Ricky Williams, Marshall Faulk, or Corey Dillon?

 

[CardinalChris]

No on Henry... he has the dropsies.... puts the pig on the rug too often for my liking.

 

[TheCardFan]

ding! ding! ding! ding! we have a winner.

McGahee as a blocker makes Henry look like a kicker.

This along with his fumble problems are legitimate points. However, Henry is a significant upgrade over what we have and picking up blitz assignments is much easier to teach as compared to vision, burst, and breaking tackles.

 

[Russ Smith]

This along with his fumble problems are legitimate points. However, Henry is a significant upgrade over what we have and picking up blitz assignments is much easier to teach as compared to vision, burst, and breaking tackles.

True, but Henry has already played 4 seasons in Buffalo so I'm assuming the BIlls have already tried to teach him how to pass block. Despite his strength and power I'm assuming the problem has to do with his lack of size.

Not opposed to getting him he's certainly an upgrade, just have to realize that you are getting a known fumbler and a guy who will get your QB hit more so if that QB is Josh, also a known fumbler, suddenly you start to get concerned. At least I do.

That said any RB we draft, even DeAngelo if he'd come out, would likely have an issue that's the thing all young RB's have to learn, blitz pickup.

In the end you play the RB that is the best runner, you can't make the decision based on who's the best blocker. In Buffalo they had 2 equal runners so logically they played the better blocker.

 

[Southpaw]

ding! ding! ding! ding! we have a winner.

McGahee as a blocker makes Henry look like a kicker.

Methinks Russ and Matt could be closet Cane fans. At Miami, hotshot RBs start out as Freshman or Sophomor FBs. They aren't allowed to be RBs until they learn the nuances of Blocking and Blitz pickups. McGahee was no exception. That is the position he started at. You can't leave immobile QBs naked in Miami's schemes. They'd get killed. For 3 years in Buffalo, Bledsoe was beaten up so badly. McGahee eats blitzers.

 

[TheCardFan]

No on Henry... he has the dropsies.... puts the pig on the rug too often for my liking.

So, you wouldn't take Ahman Green? He has averaged 1500yds and 10 Td's the last 5 season in GB and 6 fumbles per year...

Green fumbles once every 47.75 rushes...Henry every 41.87.

The difference is Green is conistantly losing 6 fumbles per year...Henry had one very bad year three years ago when he fumbled 11 times but didn't fumble at all this year (100+ rushes).

Fumble Averages for RB's...

Curtis Martin 122.15
Corey Dillon 88.40
Marshall Faulk 81.50
Shaun Alexander 74.83
Emmitt Smith 72.28
Ladanian Thomlinson 71.74
Willis McGahee 71.00
Clinton Portis 69.69
Duece McAllister 60.06
Edgerrin James 58.97
Jamal Lewis 51.63
Ricky Wiliams 46.74
Michael Pittman 41.78
Tiki Barber 31.29

Fumbling is a huge issue. But at this point...a 1400/1500 yard back that fumbles 1 time every 2-3 games is still a huge upgrade. Sorry...but it's the truth.

 

[CardinalChris]

So, you wouldn't take Ahman Green? He has averaged 1500yds and 10 Td's the last 5 season in GB and 6 fumbles per year...

Green fumbles once every 47.75 rushes...Henry every 41.87.

The difference is Green is conistantly losing 6 fumbles per year...Henry had one very bad year three years ago when he fumbled 11 times but didn't fumble at all this year (100+ rushes).

Fumble Averages for RB's...

Curtis Martin 122.15
Corey Dillon 88.40
Marshall Faulk 81.50
Shaun Alexander 74.83
Emmitt Smith 72.28
Ladanian Thomlinson 71.74
Willis McGahee 71.00
Clinton Portis 69.69
Duece McAllister 60.06
Edgerrin James 58.97
Jamal Lewis 51.63
Ricky Wiliams 46.74
Michael Pittman 41.78
Tiki Barber 31.29

Fumbling is a huge issue. But at this point...a 1400/1500 yard back that fumbles 1 time every 2-3 games is still a huge upgrade. Sorry...but it's the truth.

All things being equal, I'd take another top 5 back over Green. The only season Henry played all year and was "the man" he led the NFL in fumbles. And if we get him, Shipp stays at #2, because if henry won't split carries with McGahee, there is no way in Hades he'd share with the Tugboat. And if we get him and lose him after next year (when he becomes a free agent) I am not for it. Those three concerns together need to be addressed before a move like this is a great move. Just saying I worry about some stuff. I'm all for an upgrade, but let's make sure we are getting what the team wants.