Quick Thought on John Lott Putting Weight on Players

[kerouac9]

A lot of people are asserting that John Lott can take a guy like Von Miller or Daryl Washington and put 5-15 lbs on them without losing any speed. Where is this suggestion coming from? Is there any evidence that this is the case?

Lott famously took 15+ lbs off Beanie Wells and he went from an electric collegiate runner to a guy whom many think shouldn't be on the team in 2011.

What about DRC? When he came into the league three years ago, everyone said that he was too light and would need to put on weight. So, he's had three years in Lott's strength program:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=72974&draftyear=2008&genpos=CB Combine Weight: 184

http://www.azcardinals.com/team/ros...romartie/aab8a2d9-6c6d-4734-9c71-78e973420ecb 2010 preseason weight: 182

Let's keep this in mind as we're projecting weight onto Von Miller.

 

[Mulli]

Maybe Lutui could help him put on weight...

Great thread by the way, Lott is overrated.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I think Lott is way overrated also. He's good but, it' still strength and conditioning. There are many people capable of that job.

You use DRC, as an example. That's not a good example. He's never going to "bulk up" and put on much weight. He just doesn't have that body type. I'll bet you he's alot stronger than when he came in the league though.

Most players are going to get heavier and stronger naturally and with age. Then you throw in the strength program and it's very conceiveable that Miller puts on 10 pounds, or so. Personally, I think people put to much emphasis on his weight. He's either going to be a good run defender,or isn't. Weighing 245, or 255, won't make much difference. Like I said in another thread, just because Justin Houston weighs 270 doesn't make him a better run defender that Von Miller.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

How the player's feel, respond and Whiz's views is the only "rating" that matters to Lott. (IMO)

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Good point. Does anybody know darryl washingtons combine weight vs his 2010 weight? hopefully he had put on 5 lbs?

 

[Seandonic]

I rarely see Cards players putting on weight. However, I often see where players (Branch, Lutui, Watson, Fitz, B. Wells, etc...) are taking weight off to play better or just get playing time under Lott's supervision.

The weight that Von Miller is now, give or take five pounds is the weight he will always be IMO. That would make him one of the smallest 3-4 OLB's in the NFL...and that is what really scares me about him possibly playing for the Cards. Everything else about Miller is top-notch.

I also don't think that Lott is overrated. I remember how before he came along the Cards would lose ton's of players to injury throughout a season. His motivational ability is a real plus as well. I often see him cheering louder and harder than anyone on the sidelines and that is huge for a team like the Cards with no fiery leadership, fanatical fan base, or winning tradition.

 

[DoTheDew]

Beanie is a bad example. The guy has been injury prone since high school he doesn't prove anything.

DRC- who were these people saying he was too light? Were they Lott and Whiz? I never heard anything about the coaches wanting him to put on weight. Just because some pundits said it doesn't mean that's what Lott has been doing.

That said, it doesn't matter who the S&C coach is if the player in question lacks the work ethic or the frame. If Von Miller wants to add bulk and is physically capable, Lott is more than capable of helping him accomplish that goal (as are most other S&C coaches with willing players).

Edit: If you want to understand Lott's reputation, look at what some players and coaches across the league say about him.

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story/...h-discipline-as-cardinals-power-to-super-bowl

 

[Chopper0080]

A lot of people are asserting that John Lott can take a guy like Von Miller or Daryl Washington and put 5-15 lbs on them without losing any speed. Where is this suggestion coming from? Is there any evidence that this is the case?

Lott famously took 15+ lbs off Beanie Wells and he went from an electric collegiate runner to a guy whom many think shouldn't be on the team in 2011.

What about DRC? When he came into the league three years ago, everyone said that he was too light and would need to put on weight. So, he's had three years in Lott's strength program:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=72974&draftyear=2008&genpos=CB Combine Weight: 184

http://www.azcardinals.com/team/ros...romartie/aab8a2d9-6c6d-4734-9c71-78e973420ecb 2010 preseason weight: 182

Let's keep this in mind as we're projecting weight onto Von Miller.

For players from major college programs, Lott shouldn't be able to just add weight because these should already know how to lift. What does add weight is age. Players naturally will put on about 10-15 pounds throughout their career as their muscles fill out. One main reason why I am not worried about Daryl Washington or Von Miller and their respective weight.

 

[kerouac9]

For players from major college programs, Lott shouldn't be able to just add weight because these should already know how to lift. What does add weight is age. Players naturally will put on about 10-15 pounds throughout their career as their muscles fill out. One main reason why I am not worried about Daryl Washington or Von Miller and their respective weight.

Karlos Dansby:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58545&draftyear=2004&genpos=OLB '04 Combine: 247
http://www.nfl.com/players/karlosdansby/profile?id=DAN762622 Miami in 2010: 250

Darnell Dockett:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58194&draftyear=2004&genpos=DT '04 Combine: 297
http://www.nfl.com/players/darnelldockett/profile?id=DOC428041 Arizona in 2010: 290

Terrelle Suggs:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=28579&draftyear=2003&genpos=DE '03 Combine: 257
http://www.nfl.com/players/terrellsuggs/profile?id=SUG467201 Baltimore Ravens in 2010: 260

Dwight Freeney:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59887&draftyear=2002&genpos=DE 2002 Combine: 266
http://www.nfl.com/players/dwightfreeney/profile?id=FRE417537 Indianapolis Colts in 2010: 268

Brian Urlacher:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60885&draftyear=2000&genpos=OLB 2000 Combine: 258
http://www.nfl.com/players/brianurlacher/profile?id=URL059326 2010 with Bears: 258

Nick Barnett (A player who was considered too small to play MLB in the NFL):
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59245&draftyear=2003&genpos=OLB 2003 Combine: 236
http://www.nfl.com/players/nickbarnett/profile?id=BAR443417 2010 with Green Bay: 236

This is a team who has a hard time keeping their players after their first contracts are over. At what event horizon to players start gaining weight?

 

[Seandonic]

Karlos Dansby:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58545&draftyear=2004&genpos=OLB '04 Combine: 247
http://www.nfl.com/players/karlosdansby/profile?id=DAN762622 Miami in 2010: 250

Darnell Dockett:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58194&draftyear=2004&genpos=DT '04 Combine: 297
http://www.nfl.com/players/darnelldockett/profile?id=DOC428041 Arizona in 2010: 290

Terrelle Suggs:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=28579&draftyear=2003&genpos=DE '03 Combine: 257
http://www.nfl.com/players/terrellsuggs/profile?id=SUG467201 Baltimore Ravens in 2010: 260

Dwight Freeney:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59887&draftyear=2002&genpos=DE 2002 Combine: 266
http://www.nfl.com/players/dwightfreeney/profile?id=FRE417537 Indianapolis Colts in 2010: 268

Brian Urlacher:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60885&draftyear=2000&genpos=OLB 2000 Combine: 258
http://www.nfl.com/players/brianurlacher/profile?id=URL059326 2010 with Bears: 258

Nick Barnett (A player who was considered too small to play MLB in the NFL):
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59245&draftyear=2003&genpos=OLB 2003 Combine: 236
http://www.nfl.com/players/nickbarnett/profile?id=BAR443417 2010 with Green Bay: 236

This is a team who has a hard time keeping their players after their first contracts are over. At what event horizon to players start gaining weight?

Thanks for doing this research K9. It totally backs up your point and incidentally mine as well.

 

[DoTheDew]

I think we nit-pick about weight way too much. Generally speaking, it is a far bigger and more fixable problem if players are over weight and take it off. Lott has taken off double digit pounds from players that were too heavy in the past. Fitz and Warner are listed in the link I posted above.

A player who is 6'3'' 236 with almost no body fat is far superior to a player who is 6'3'' 256 with 20 pounds of fat. That fat slows you down and does little to help you tackle nor break tackles. That's the main thing you should be looking at. BMI, not weight.

This is why I am not worried about Daryl Washington, especially if we make him WILB. Rushing the passer and going out in coverage means you want him to be light not bulky. The SILB is whom we want to be more of a "tank" build in our system. The same thing applies to Von Miller. If he is going to be blitzing 75% of the time, our first priority is that he has quickness and agility. An extra 10 pounds of strength would be nice, but it isn't going to make much of a difference against 300 pound OTs. He's plenty big to take on most RBs.

 

[SuperSpck]

I think we nit-pick about weight way too much. Generally speaking, it is a far bigger and more fixable problem if players are over weight and take it off. Lott has taken off double digit pounds from players that were too heavy in the past. Fitz and Warner are listed in the link I posted above.

A player who is 6'3'' 236 with almost no body fat is far superior to a player who is 6'3'' 256 with 20 pounds of fat. That fat slows you down and does little to help you tackle nor break tackles. That's the main thing you should be looking at. BMI, not weight.

An extra 10 pounds of strength would be nice, but it isn't going to make much of a difference against 300 pound OTs. He's plenty big to take on most RBs.

I agree with you--

Since we're talking about the optimization of force and acceleration let's tweak the vocabulary and keep in mind that weight is not mass.

This is exact what the Body Mass Index is designed to help with.

If the player's muscle mass stays the same and he's able to only lose fat then it's good (but pretty hard for guys in their excellent shape to do), but if the player drops weight by losing both fat and muscle as a total then that's not nearly as good. Could even be a detriment.

Here's where I tend to agree with K9--
ideally the S&C coach is helping them replace muscle with fat it should usually be a sum total gain.
We're assuming this is because these very young men grow into their muscles and gain weight naturally (as muscle is heavier then fat).

Alternatively--
We also need to keep in mind that there's probably a component related to positions on the field.
It's OK for a QB, WR, or CB to drop total weight, but someone who plays in the phone booth more frequently will want to probably have something extra.

Is there a dietitian on call to help us out?
Can we just get John Lott on the board to explain the whys and hows of his approach?

 

[SuperSpck]

Can we just get John Lott on the board to explain the whys and hows of his approach?

I guess the article helps it out:

"He should be the highest-paid strength and conditioning coach in the NFL," defensive tackle Darnell Dockett said. "He's the only coach I have on speed dial. His whole philosophy is to wear teams down in the fourth quarter -- of games and in the season...

...Cardinals players have praised Lott's hard-driving ways, groomed and nurtured over 20 years in college and in the NFL under the likes of Bill Parcells with the New York Jets -- that's where Lott met Whisenhunt -- and working with track athletes Carl Lewis, Leroy Burrell and some from Indonesia and Japan. Lott, a former offensive guard, played one NFL season with the Steelers in 1987...

...Lott said the Cardinals' offensive line has lost 417 total pounds in two seasons. What's big (or small) about that? The unit has been able to stay healthy and jell together during that span...

...To emphasize his point, Lott will have a player he believes is too heavy to grab a 25-pound weight and run sprints with it. Then, he'll have the player drop the weight to show how much easier it is to move without the additional pounds. The point is usually well taken. "What really gets them is I ask them what weight they played at in college," Lott said. "That kills them because it's usually a lot less. I ask them, 'Didn't playing at that weight get you into the NFL?'"
That point also is usually well taken, Lott said...

...Not everyone needs to lose weight, like the 290-pound Dockett, who actually has added a few pounds since Lott's arrival. Lott's program is based on the players' needs, not a theory...

To help players to buy into his system, Lott runs and trains with them. He has hired young assistants who can do the same, he said.

I included some of the player testimonial stuff because it intertwines with another topic around here: credibility with the players.
We're hoping the D responds to the new DC since he knows what it's like to be them. Lott seems to have credibility with the players as a coach too.

 

[DoTheDew]

Alternatively--
We also need to keep in mind that there's probably a component related to positions on the field.
It's OK for a QB, WR, or CB to drop total weight, but someone who plays in the phone booth more frequently will want to probably have something extra.

Definitely, and I think this is where I disagree with K9 about D-Wash and Miller. My understanding is that D-Wash is supposed to do 2 things: Blitz and cover the pass. Speed is more important than bulk for that.

Miller is supposed to take over the Porter/Berry/Okeafor role of trying to get in the backfield and get to the QB most of the time. Again, quicks being the most important factor. That's why I'm not super concerned about his weight. Ideally, he'll be taking on a TE or RB and Dockett/Campbell will be taking on the OT.

 

[Duckjake]

Definitely, and I think this is where I disagree with K9 about D-Wash and Miller. My understanding is that D-Wash is supposed to do 2 things: Blitz and cover the pass. Speed is more important than bulk for that.

Miller is supposed to take over the Porter/Berry/Okeafor role of trying to get in the backfield and get to the QB most of the time. Again, quicks being the most important factor. That's why I'm not super concerned about his weight. Ideally, he'll be taking on a TE or RB and Dockett/Campbell will be taking on the OT.

Meanwhile opposing offenses salivate at the opportunity to attack those two with their 315lb offensive linemen and 235lb Running backs. Dockett and Campbell do not take on the OT. Porter and Haggans were taking on the OT. With Lt.Dan in the picture at NT that may change but it sure wasn't the case last season.

 

[Buckybird]

Ideally, he'll be taking on a TE or RB and Dockett/Campbell will be taking on the OT.

Thats simply not true. Whomever plays ROLB for us will generally be battling with a tackle nearly every play.

 

[Duckjake]

Thats simply not true. Whomever plays ROLB for us will generally be battling with a tackle nearly every play.

Horrible visions of Raynoch Thompson getting rolled downfield like so much driftwood in a flood.

 

[DoTheDew]

Thats simply not true. Whomever plays ROLB for us will generally be battling with a tackle nearly every play.

If the NT takes on 2 blockers like he is supposed to DD takes the G, and the SOLB takes on the OT, the left side is going to be sitting pretty. The WILB, WOLB, or CC will be unblocked by an OL.

But the point is moot. Most 3-4 OLBs get their sacks by speeding around the OT, not bull rushing. Point still stands that it is speed, not power that makes a great OLB pass rusher.

 

[Duckjake]

If the NT takes on 2 blockers like he is supposed to DD takes the G, and the SOLB takes on the OT, the left side is going to be sitting pretty. The WILB, WOLB, or CC will be unblocked by an OL.

But the point is moot. Most 3-4 OLBs get their sacks by speeding around the OT, not bull rushing. Point still stands that it is speed, not power that makes a great OLB pass rusher.

If that is the case then why don't we just line up Michael Adams at OLB?

 

[DoTheDew]

Meanwhile opposing offenses salivate at the opportunity to attack those two with their 315lb offensive linemen and 235lb Running backs. Dockett and Campbell do not take on the OT. Porter and Haggans were taking on the OT. With Lt.Dan in the picture at NT that may change but it sure wasn't the case last season.

Very true and that was a major reason we struggled on D last year. Robinson CONSTANTLY got pushed back by a single team. This is exactly why a good NT is the staple of any good 3-4. When you watch any good 3-4 D, you see the NT double teamed far more than we had last season.

If "Lt. Dan" lives up to his draft status, and we draft a good rushing OLB overload blitzes with be money for this D.

 

[Buckybird]

If that is the case then why don't we just line up Michael Adams at OLB?

Duck, you crazy man!!!

BTW-who are we going to use on the CB blitz since Adams is technically gone? DRC wouldn't hit a midget if he stole his gold teeth. Toler? I guess AJ Jefferson...

 

[DoTheDew]

If that is the case then why don't we just line up Michael Adams at OLB?

Because Adams will get blown up by the RB in the backfield picking him up. Von Miller is roughly the same size as most of the bigger RBs. The speed benefit is diminished when back there because those guys are every bit as fast as any LB in the league, unlike OTs.

Watch any highlight reel of a 3-4 OLBs sacks. It's always a matter of speeding by the OL. You should know this you saw it happen to Levi and Keith countless times last year.

 

[DoTheDew]

Duck, you crazy man!!!

BTW-who are we going to use on the CB blitz since Adams is technically gone? DRC wouldn't hit a midget if he stole his gold teeth. Toler? I guess AJ Jefferson...

Toler after we sign Asomugha.

 

[Buckybird]

Because Adams will get blown up by the RB in the backfield picking him up. Von Miller is roughly the same size as most of the bigger RBs. The speed benefit is diminished when back there because those guys ever every bit as fast as any LB in the league, unlike OTs.

Watch any highlight reel of a 3-4 OLBs sacks. It's always a matter of speeding by the OL. You should know this you saw it happen to Levi and Keith countless times last year.

Putting Levi & Keith as examples is a poor choice. I could have 10 sacks a year if matched up against Levi.

Miller is a pure speed rusher & needs to use his hands & get off blocks better...thats a fact. Teams will adjust to any edge rusher if he has only 1 move. Dew, if you really believe Harrison, Woodley, Suggs, Ware, etc don't rely on strength & their lower bodies to get to the QB & simply blow by the OT almost everytime you haven't been watching much NFL football.

 

[Buckybird]

Toler after we sign Asomugha.

I think Warner returning to QB us has better odds.