Rate the Hollywood Brown trade

[BritCard]

Like Jalen Thompson...?

Multi year starter and a cornerstone of the team and we paid him top money. He's the 12th highest paid safety in the league.

Cortland Sutton

WR1 on the Broncos and a Pro Bowl wide receiver

Tim Patrick

This one you can have

Kenny Moore

Best slot corner in the league.

Dennis Gardeck

Gardeck wasn't extended until after year 4. His deal the year before was an ERFA tender.

Dre Greenlaw

Greenlaw is an All pro / Pro Bowl calibre linebacker.


The only guy here who's in the Kirk/Murphy/Allen mould is Tim Patrick and he signed an $11.33m a year deal which is hardly a "Home discount".

I'd list all the non elite players who haven't been extended early but it's easier to just say it's everyone except Tim Patrick.

And it's almost certainly a player/agent thing. All players think they an invincible. All think they can play better and thus make more money later. And every single agent is telling them every GM that or they aren't very good at their job.

And every GM that picks up a phone to an agent and says "Let's get this deal done early" hears back "Sure, if you pay him now what he's going to be worth after next year".

Which is exactly what we did with Jalen Thompson.

 

[BritCard]

TJ Watt signed his extension in September of his FA year.

I refer you to this

The only players that extend early are those that have already been so good they know they can get paid top money.

Show me an OK player who took an early discounted extension.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Multi year starter and a cornerstone of the team and we paid him top money. He's the 12th highest paid safety in the league.



WR1 on the Broncos and a Pro Bowl wide receiver



This one you can have



Best slot corner in the league.



Gardeck wasn't extended until after year 4. His deal the year before was an ERFA tender.



Greenlaw is an All pro / Pro Bowl calibre linebacker.


The only guy here who's in the Kirk/Murphy/Allen mould is Tim Patrick and he signed an $11.33m a year deal which is hardly a "Home discount".

I'd list all the non elite players who haven't been extended early but it's easier to just say it's everyone except Tim Patrick.

And it's almost certainly a player/agent thing. All players think they an invincible. All think they can play better and thus make more money later. And every single agent is telling them every GM that or they aren't very good at their job.

And every GM that picks up a phone to an agent and says "Let's get this deal done early" hears back "Sure, if you pay him now what he's going to be worth after next year".

Which is exactly what we did with Jalen Thompson.

How do you say “you proved me wrong but I will not own up to it” without saying “you proved me wrong but I will not own up to it.”

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I refer you to this

Pretty sure allen and Murphy are considered much better than “okay” at this juncture and that during preseason you were counting them among your reasons why the cardinals were going to be good and it was no big deal keim didn’t shore up CB and the roster in general.

 

[Chopper0080]

Multi year starter and a cornerstone of the team and we paid him top money. He's the 12th highest paid safety in the league.



WR1 on the Broncos and a Pro Bowl wide receiver



This one you can have



Best slot corner in the league.



Gardeck wasn't extended until after year 4. His deal the year before was an ERFA tender.



Greenlaw is an All pro / Pro Bowl calibre linebacker.


The only guy here who's in the Kirk/Murphy/Allen mould is Tim Patrick and he signed an $11.33m a year deal which is hardly a "Home discount".

I'd list all the non elite players who haven't been extended early but it's easier to just say it's everyone except Tim Patrick.

And it's almost certainly a player/agent thing. All players think they an invincible. All think they can play better and thus make more money later. And every single agent is telling them every GM that or they aren't very good at their job.

And every GM that picks up a phone to an agent and says "Let's get this deal done early" hears back "Sure, if you pay him now what he's going to be worth after next year".

Which is exactly what we did with Jalen Thompson.

In what world is 12th highest money top money?

 

[Chopper0080]

I refer you to this

None of those players that are being discussed are "ok players".

They were good young players who had not peaked yet. Very similar to the players mentioned. And the contracts discussed were not peanuts either. We were talking about 10 mil or so for Allen and 12/13 ml for Murphy. Not peanut contracts but also not top 10 at their position contracts which they may get this offseason. Similar to Kirk's situation. Could have paid him 10 mil early but we waited when we knew he was going to have a huge role and then he got 7 mil more.

 

[BritCard]

None of those players that are being discussed are "ok players".

They were good young players who had not peaked yet. Very similar to the players mentioned. And the contracts discussed were not peanuts either. We were talking about 10 mil or so for Allen and 12/13 ml for Murphy. Not peanut contracts but also not top 10 at their position contracts which they may get this offseason. Similar to Kirk's situation. Could have paid him 10 mil early but we waited when we knew he was going to have a huge role and then he got 7 mil more.

If we paid Kirk $10m coming off a 560 yard season this board would have exploded.

This whole argument acts as if Steve Keim should just go up to Kirk in the locker room and say "Sign now and I'll give you $10m but this deal expires when you leave this room".

The GM deals with agents. The agents job is to get the most money for the player. Taking an early "home discount" deal just isn't something thats is in an agents vocabulary. They aren't stupid. They know if you're trying to extend a guy like Kirk who's been a JAG so far it's because you suspect they are going to explode and you are trying to get them on the cheap.

And yes, they are ok players. Allen is good, but he's "Cardinals good" and he wasn't this good last year. He's not getting national attention or pro bowl votes.

And Murphy is the Kirk of cornerbacks.

It's a pure fantasy argument. Which is why like 95% of players don't sign 3rd year extensions, yet here people are arguing Keim should have done so with multiple players.

 

[BritCard]

In what world is 12th highest money top money?

When your nowhere near a top 12 safety.

 

[Chopper0080]

If we paid Kirk $10m coming off a 560 yard season this board would have exploded.

This whole argument acts as if Steve Keim should just go up to Kirk in the locker room and say "Sign now and I'll give you $10m but this deal expires when you leave this room".

The GM deals with agents. The agents job is to get the most money for the player. Taking an early "home discount" deal just isn't something thats is in an agents vocabulary. They aren't stupid. They know if you're trying to extend a guy like Kirk who's been a JAG so far it's because you suspect they are going to explode and you are trying to get them on the cheap.

And yes, they are ok players. Allen is good, but he's "Cardinals good" and he wasn't this good last year. He's not getting national attention or pro bowl votes.

And Murphy is the Kirk of cornerbacks.

It's a pure fantasy argument. Which is why like 95% of players don't sign 3rd year extensions, yet here people are arguing Keim should have done so with multiple players.

There is as wrong as your DJ Humphries take was.

RE: Kirk. The agent takes the 10 mil contract not because it is a home town discount but because he was coming off a 560 yard season. As a GM, you should know you offense and your players and not worry about message board feedback. That is what having a multi year plan looks like. Keim knew the offense was heavy 3WR, he knew it was great for slot players, and he knew Kirk could play in the slot. It wasn't difficult to see.

Re: Zach Allen. Also another area where you are either shockingly uninformed or just sticking your head in the sand. Allen had very similar pressure rate stats last year as Quinnen Williams, a player most people hold in high regard.

AND for 2022
Williams: 13 games, 2 hurries, 11 knockdowns, 11 sacks, 25 total pressures.
Allen: 13 games, 7 hurries, 12 knockdowns, 5.5 sacks, 25 total pressures.

A 6 sack difference is big which is why there will be a gap between Williams and Allen's salary but sacks are a highly luck based and inconsistent. Pressure rates are most predictive of future success.

So, statistics would show that Allen is more than "Cardinals good".

And Byron Murphy...I have my opinion but we will see. I am curious how you will qualify him as "Cardinals good" when he gets paid like 15/16 mil per year?

 

[Chopper0080]

When your nowhere near a top 12 safety.

You don't think Jalen Thompson is one of the 12 best S in the NFL?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There is as wrong as your DJ Humphries take was.

RE: Kirk. The agent takes the 10 mil contract not because it is a home town discount but because he was coming off a 560 yard season. As a GM, you should know you offense and your players and not worry about message board feedback. That is what having a multi year plan looks like. Keim knew the offense was heavy 3WR, he knew it was great for slot players, and he knew Kirk could play in the slot. It wasn't difficult to see.

Re: Zach Allen. Also another area where you are either shockingly uninformed or just sticking your head in the sand. Allen had very similar pressure rate stats last year as Quinnen Williams, a player most people hold in high regard.

AND for 2022
Williams: 13 games, 2 hurries, 11 knockdowns, 11 sacks, 25 total pressures.
Allen: 13 games, 7 hurries, 12 knockdowns, 5.5 sacks, 25 total pressures.

A 6 sack difference is big which is why there will be a gap between Williams and Allen's salary but sacks are a highly luck based and inconsistent. Pressure rates are most predictive of future success.

So, statistics would show that Allen is more than "Cardinals good".

And Byron Murphy...I have my opinion but we will see. I am curious how you will qualify him as "Cardinals good" when he gets paid like 15/16 mil per year?

All of this, so much this.

 

[BritCard]

You don't think Jalen Thompson is one of the 12 best S in the NFL?

No. Nobody does outside this board.

 

[BritCard]

There is as wrong as your DJ Humphries take was.

RE: Kirk. The agent takes the 10 mil contract not because it is a home town discount but because he was coming off a 560 yard season. As a GM, you should know you offense and your players and not worry about message board feedback. That is what having a multi year plan looks like. Keim knew the offense was heavy 3WR, he knew it was great for slot players, and he knew Kirk could play in the slot. It wasn't difficult to see.

Re: Zach Allen. Also another area where you are either shockingly uninformed or just sticking your head in the sand. Allen had very similar pressure rate stats last year as Quinnen Williams, a player most people hold in high regard.

AND for 2022
Williams: 13 games, 2 hurries, 11 knockdowns, 11 sacks, 25 total pressures.
Allen: 13 games, 7 hurries, 12 knockdowns, 5.5 sacks, 25 total pressures.

A 6 sack difference is big which is why there will be a gap between Williams and Allen's salary but sacks are a highly luck based and inconsistent. Pressure rates are most predictive of future success.

So, statistics would show that Allen is more than "Cardinals good".

And Byron Murphy...I have my opinion but we will see. I am curious how you will qualify him as "Cardinals good" when he gets paid like 15/16 mil per year?

Pure fantasy. My job is negotiating deals. You don't sell low on an asset that is maturing.

Re Kirk. Most of this board didn't think Kirk was worth $10m after last season. Pure revisionism to think you would have thought it fine to pay him this a year earlier.

On top of that if he gets extended early then he likely doesn't get 900 yards last year. He's already paid and players (and people in general) have a tendency to perform to the level they are getting paid.

The vast majority, like 95%, of players don't get extended early. Insane to think that Kirk, Allen and Murphy are in the top 5% of players.

Agents will extend early. If the offer is what they expect to get after year 4. And they usually only come when the player has already proven themselves.

The Eagles are one of the best run teams in the league and didn't extend Goedert until late November last year. He was taken a few spots after Kirk.

Michael Gallup taken in the same draft wasn't extended until this offseason.

 

[kerouac9]

Pure fantasy. My job is negotiating deals. You don't sell low on an asset that is maturing.

Re Kirk. Most of this board didn't think Kirk was worth $10m after last season. Pure revisionism to think you would have thought it fine to pay him this a year earlier.

On top of that if he gets extended early then he likely doesn't get 900 yards last year. He's already paid and players (and people in general) have a tendency to perform to the level they are getting paid.

The vast majority, like 95%, of players don't get extended early. Insane to think that Kirk, Allen and Murphy are in the top 5% of players.

Agents will extend early. If the offer is what they expect to get after year 4. And they usually only come when the player has already proven themselves.

It's still utterly hilarious that you hold professional football people with 10-20+ years' experience working 50+ hour weeks focused entirely on football to the EXACT SAME STANDARD that you hold a bunch of yahoos on a fan message board who are avoiding their work.

It's so silly.

Yes, there is risk in extending your young players before their contracts are up. But the benefit is great that you have a known quantity (from both a talent and attitude perspective) in-house and you don't have to pay for someone else's garbage.

That's what smart teams do. Jordan Mailata (PHI) was extended with a year left on his rookie deal.

 

[BritCard]

It's still utterly hilarious that you hold professional football people with 10-20+ years' experience working 50+ hour weeks focused entirely on football to the EXACT SAME STANDARD that you hold a bunch of yahoos on a fan message board who are avoiding their work.

It's so silly.

Yes, there is risk in extending your young players before their contracts are up. But the benefit is great that you have a known quantity (from both a talent and attitude perspective) in-house and you don't have to pay for someone else's garbage.

That's what smart teams do. Jordan Mailata (PHI) was extended with a year left on his rookie deal.

I'm not holding them to the same standard.

I'm pointing out the the same people now saying "Ackshually we should have extended him" were at the time calling him a JAG and saying we should move on from him.

This whole argument is revisionist BS combined with something that simply doesn't happen in the NFL (Average players extending early for cheap).

 

[QuebecCard]

If we paid Kirk $10m coming off a 560 yard season this board would have exploded.

This whole argument acts as if Steve Keim should just go up to Kirk in the locker room and say "Sign now and I'll give you $10m but this deal expires when you leave this room".

The GM deals with agents. The agents job is to get the most money for the player. Taking an early "home discount" deal just isn't something thats is in an agents vocabulary. They aren't stupid. They know if you're trying to extend a guy like Kirk who's been a JAG so far it's because you suspect they are going to explode and you are trying to get them on the cheap.

And yes, they are ok players. Allen is good, but he's "Cardinals good" and he wasn't this good last year. He's not getting national attention or pro bowl votes.

And Murphy is the Kirk of cornerbacks.

It's a pure fantasy argument. Which is why like 95% of players don't sign 3rd year extensions, yet here people are arguing Keim should have done so with multiple players.

What does that even mean? And he toughed out last season on a shredded ankle.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm not holding them to the same standard.

I'm pointing out the the same people now saying "Ackshually we should have extended him" were at the time calling him a JAG and saying we should move on from him.

This whole argument is revisionist BS combined with something that simply doesn't happen in the NFL (Average players extending early for cheap).

You are once again making up an argument that no one is having. No one is advocating extending these players for cheap. 10 mil two years ago was not "cheap". It also wasn't the top of the market. Extending Thompson, Allen, and Murphy would not have been for cheap this past offseason but it also wouldn't be a bidding war against other, desperate teams in FA. As someone who negotiates deals for a living, you should know that the more interested parties, the higher the cost. You should also know that if there is high risk, it can be more beneficial to your client to secure good offer sooner than take on risk for a potential payout that is less certain.

And, if I recall correctly, plenty of people were open to extending Kirk rather than let him play out his rookie deal. Of course they weren't in favor of paying him 17 mil but they would not have had to. Same as our young players this year.

 

[Chopper0080]

It's still utterly hilarious that you hold professional football people with 10-20+ years' experience working 50+ hour weeks focused entirely on football to the EXACT SAME STANDARD that you hold a bunch of yahoos on a fan message board who are avoiding their work.

It's so silly.

Yes, there is risk in extending your young players before their contracts are up. But the benefit is great that you have a known quantity (from both a talent and attitude perspective) in-house and you don't have to pay for someone else's garbage.

That's what smart teams do. Jordan Mailata (PHI) was extended with a year left on his rookie deal.

I find it interesting how examples keep popping up of something that rarely happens.

 

[kerouac9]

I find it interesting how examples keep popping up of something that rarely happens.

It NEVER happens. Look at the last five years, and you'll see zero examples.

Especially when you start adding on filters liked "Well is he the best 3rd WR in the NFL?"

 

[BritCard]

You are once again making up an argument that no one is having. No one is advocating extending these players for cheap. 10 mil two years ago was not "cheap". It also wasn't the top of the market. Extending Thompson, Allen, and Murphy would not have been for cheap this past offseason but it also wouldn't be a bidding war against other, desperate teams in FA. As someone who negotiates deals for a living, you should know that the more interested parties, the higher the cost. You should also know that if there is high risk, it can be more beneficial to your client to secure good offer sooner than take on risk for a potential payout that is less certain.

And, if I recall correctly, plenty of people were open to extending Kirk rather than let him play out his rookie deal. Of course they weren't in favor of paying him 17 mil but they would not have had to. Same as our young players this year.

It wasn't 2 years ago. It was 1 year ago.

Had Kirk been extended for $10m he would have been the 28th highest paid WR. So yeah, it was cheap.

I do know when there are more interested parties the cost is higher. Which is exactly why agents aren't interested in doing cheap early deals that don't get paid top 10 money.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It wasn't 2 years ago. It was 1 year ago.

Had Kirk been extended for $10m he would have been the 28th highest paid WR. So yeah, it was cheap.

I do know when there are more interested parties the cost is higher. Which is exactly why agents aren't interested in doing cheap early deals that don't get paid top 10 money.

2 years ago would have been the offseason prior to his final season.

 

[SteveKeimFan]

I hate this trade so much

 

[Harry]

No. Nobody does outside this board.

He played better last season. He’s in the middle of the pack, but decent.

 

[BritCard]

He played better last season. He’s in the middle of the pack, but decent.

Yup. Decent and middle of the pack is where I'd have him.

 

[ajcardfan]

You don't think Jalen Thompson is one of the 12 best S in the NFL?

I think he has been used a lot differently this year. Probably a big reason for that is our weak CB position. He is always the deepest player in secondary. He has had almost zero coverage responsibility for TE or slot receivers. Simmons has done a lot of that. He used to blitz. I think you can count on one hand the number of times he has blitzed this year.

We need to get a top CB. I have no idea how, or if, we will since I seriously doubt we use our top pick on a CB.