Ray Thompson

[abomb]

Does Thompson have any games remaining in his suspension or is it over?

Thanks,

A-Bomb

 

[WizardOfAz]

Over.

Four game suspension served the final four games of the 2003 season.

 

[kerouac9]

Over. He can go back to collecting paychecks and being the most overrated member of the defense beginning in Week 1.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Actually

Adrian Wilson is the most overrated player on the D. Thompson by far is one of the better players we have on defense.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by kerouac9
being the most overrated member of the defense beginning in Week 1.

By who?

 

[Savage58]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Over. He can go back to collecting paychecks and being the most overrated member of the defense beginning in Week 1.

I agree with that statement, for some reason he's pulled the wool over alot of fans eyes, he needs to step up his game this year. I expected alot more out of him when he was drafted in the 2nd round, he was great at Tennessee, but it looks like he is satisfied with just being the best LB on this team, which ain't all that great.

Adrian Wilson is a close 2nd on the list of overrateds, but if he can pick up some coverage skills, he might be able to eek out a few more years in the NFL.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Actually

Originally posted by Jetstream Green
Adrian Wilson is the most overrated player on the D. Thompson by far is one of the better players we have on defense.

Show me. What has he done statistically that merits his consideration as "one of the better players we have on defense." What was the dropoff that the Cards experienced on defense once he was suspended?

Personally, I think that Gerald Hayes and LeVar Woods did as good a job, if not a better one, than Thompson had.

Thompson had 54 solo tackles and three sacks last season (He's also supposed to be our pass-rush specialist in the LB corps. He has 6.5 career sacks.). No picks, three passes defensed.

Adrian had 68 solo tackles and 8 passes defensed in a system when he was constantly covering for the inability for Ronnie Mac to defend the pass and ultra-slow Renaldo Hill playing the corner. He at least laid two of the best hits of 2003 last season. I can't remember a single play that Raynoch "made".

 

[WizardOfAz]

Who "over-rated" Thompson??

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
By who?

The front office, to begin with. His contract extension was ridiculous compared to his production. I don't like Ronnie Mac, but he absolutely outplayed Raynoch in 2003.

I think that many fans are beginning to wake up to Raynoch's act, but Mac and Graves seemed to love the guy for whatever reason.

Personally, I think that Raynoch was only the third-best LB on the team. I think that Levar Fisher played better than him in 2003 (52 solo tackles, 1 sack, 3 passes defensed in part-time play [was replaced on passing downs]) and has far more upside.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Savage58
Adrian Wilson is a close 2nd on the list of overrateds, but if he can pick up some coverage skills, he might be able to eek out a few more years in the NFL.

This I agree with, but I'm more apt to attribute some of that to bad coaching and scheming. I don't really think that Mac and Marmie's defense put Adrian in a position to succeed. I think with a better corner, a better system (Ronnie Mac out on passing downs, perhaps?), and a better pass rush, Wilson will shine. But I'm not ready to say it will happen, because there are a lot of question marks about Adrian going into his contract year.

 

[lrk27]

Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by kerouac9
Show me. What has he done statistically that merits his consideration as "one of the better players we have on defense." What was the dropoff that the Cards experienced on defense once he was suspended?

Personally, I think that Gerald Hayes and LeVar Woods did as good a job, if not a better one, than Thompson had.

Thompson had 54 solo tackles and three sacks last season (He's also supposed to be our pass-rush specialist in the LB corps. He has 6.5 career sacks.). No picks, three passes defensed.

Adrian had 68 solo tackles and 8 passes defensed in a system when he was constantly covering for the inability for Ronnie Mac to defend the pass and ultra-slow Renaldo Hill playing the corner. He at least laid two of the best hits of 2003 last season. I can't remember a single play that Raynoch "made".

Are you kidding me? Ray Thompson has been the most consistent and best player on this defense for the last two seasons. He had 90 total tackles last year, behind only Mac and Dexter, and Ray only played in 12 games. 2002 he had 139 total tackles. 2002 he was the best player on the defense and he wouldv'e probably been considered that last year if he had played in 16 games.

Whovever said that he was supposed to be a pass-rush specialist? His specialty has always been his ability to play the run, not rush the QB. And as far as not remembering a single play that Ray "made", well, that I can only blame on your memory, not his poor play. You remember Adrian's plays because he is a more devastating (and dirty) hitter, but that doesn't mean he is the only one "making" plays. To anyone who has watched this team carefully over the last two years, Ray Thompson is arguably the best defensive player the Cardinals have, and his extension was the right thing to do.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by lrk27
Are you kidding me? Ray Thompson has been the most consistent and best player on this defense for the last two seasons. He had 90 total tackles last year, behind only Mac and Dexter, and Ray only played in 12 games. 2002 he had 139 total tackles. 2002 he was the best player on the defense and he wouldv'e probably been considered that last year if he had played in 16 games.

Whovever said that he was supposed to be a pass-rush specialist? His specialty has always been his ability to play the run, not rush the QB. And as far as not remembering a single play that Ray "made", well, that I can only blame on your memory, not his poor play. You remember Adrian's plays because he is a more devastating (and dirty) hitter, but that doesn't mean he is the only one "making" plays. To anyone who has watched this team carefully over the last two years, Ray Thompson is arguably the best defensive player the Cardinals have, and his extension was the right thing to do.

Don't worry aboout Kerouac. He bases his player evaluations on a complex equation involving Madden rankings and draft position.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by lrk27
Are you kidding me? Ray Thompson has been the most consistent and best player on this defense for the last two seasons. He had 90 total tackles last year, behind only Mac and Dexter, and Ray only played in 12 games. 2002 he had 139 total tackles. 2002 he was the best player on the defense and he wouldv'e probably been considered that last year if he had played in 16 games.

Whovever said that he was supposed to be a pass-rush specialist? His specialty has always been his ability to play the run, not rush the QB. And as far as not remembering a single play that Ray "made", well, that I can only blame on your memory, not his poor play. You remember Adrian's plays because he is a more devastating (and dirty) hitter, but that doesn't mean he is the only one "making" plays. To anyone who has watched this team carefully over the last two years, Ray Thompson is arguably the best defensive player the Cardinals have, and his extension was the right thing to do.

I agree more with this post then the others that say he is overrated. He certainly has had his share of tackles over the last couple of years and would have had more than the 60 he had this year if not for the suspension. Do I think he is a world beater? No, not yet, but he could be.

Who I think is overrated is Fisher. Granted he is young and this was his first eyar starting, but he needs to make some plays and quit making some of the horrendous mistakes he made last year (i.e Reeds' punt block for a TD, Fischer complete wiff on J.Lewis at the goalline, etc) I think he will get better but all I heard before last season was how he was gonna take over at LB and be flying to the ball, and I havent seen that. He had a whopping 59 tackles ni 16 starts last year and that just doesnt cut it.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by MaoTosiFanClub
Don't worry aboout Kerouac. He bases his player evaluations on a complex equation involving Madden rankings and draft position.

Please. This hasn't been true in some time.

lrk: Qualitative arguements are nice, but I'll accept your memory on what Raynoch Thompson has done to help the defense lately. At least Adrian makes highlight-reel hits and broken-up passes (that weren't illegal, but whatever).

Yeah, Raynoch get a lot of tackles, but so did Pat Tillman, and no one is going to confuse him with Brian Dawkins. I don't know where you got the idea that Thompson was a run-stopper. He's undersized for a linebacker, and was drafted to lessen the impact of losing Jamir Miller to the Browns. Thompson is assigned to blitz all the time. He was the primary blitzer out of the LB corps! Despite that, you're run-stopping specialist had all of two stops-for-loss in 2003. EDIT: Ronnie Mac had 12 TFLs in 2003. Levar Fisher had 7. Sounds like the best player the Cards have.

The best player on the defense last year was either Ronnie Mac or Dex Jackson. Even if Raynoch were the best player on the Cards' last-ranked defense, that's not saying much.

I'll be the first to say that my favourite defensive players, Fisher and Wilson, have a lot to prove to live up to their billing. That being said, they're under a lot of scrutiny. I'd wager that the temperature on this board is that Wilson is overrated. If everyone think's he's overrated, than how is that so? But to say that Raynoch deserving of his long-term contract (immediately after signing he was suspended, by the way) seems to be pretty disputed by the statistical evidence and the fact that no one seems to be able to point out a huge play that he's made.

 

[Ryanwb]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by kerouac9
Please. This hasn't been true in some time.

Since last week?

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Since last week?

Seriously, when was the last time I did that?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by kerouac9


Seriously, when was the last time I did that?

Did what?

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Did what?

Used Madden rankings or draft position alone or as the primary criterion to rate a player.

 

[lrk27]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by kerouac9
But to say that Raynoch deserving of his long-term contract (immediately after signing he was suspended, by the way) seems to be pretty disputed by the statistical evidence and the fact that no one seems to be able to point out a huge play that he's made.

Vs GB. Fumble recovery in first quarter that lead to 7-0 lead. Cards win by 7.

vs. Cincinnati, game saving tackle on Peter Warrick on 4th & 10 with 39 seconds left, two yards short of the first down. Cards win 17-14.

vs. SF, broke up 2 pt. conversion pass early in game. Cards win 16-13 in OT.

90 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, 3 sacks, and 11 hurries in 12 games is a pretty good year for any LB. Just because you remember Adrian's plays more vividly does not mean he's the only one making plays, they're just flashier. Wilson gets a bad rap from a lot of fans, but the guy is a solid safety, but that is a very difficult spot to play on a defense like the Cards. He HAS to make plays a lot more than most safeties in the league. Neither Thompson nor Wilson are what's wrong with the defense in AZ. Both should be on this team for a long time if they want to move forward.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by lrk27
Neither Thompson nor Wilson are what's wrong with the defense in AZ. Both should be on this team for a long time if they want to move forward.

This I can agree with, though I don't know where you're getting the 90 tackles number (I got my 54 number from NFL.com). Both need to contribute to the level that was expected of them when they were aquired.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Kerouac, did you even watch the Cardinals play the last two years? If you did you'd realize that while Ray isn't Keith Bulluck, he is one of the better players on the defensive side of the ball and made a lot more of an impact on games than Fisher or Wilson. Thompson pretty much kept us in that Chicago game by himself.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by MaoTosiFanClub
Thompson pretty much kept us in that Chicago game by himself.

The Chicago game that we lost 28-3? Where he had five tackles and two sacks? Where Brock Forsey came off the bench to rush for 134 yards and Ray-Ray didn't have one tackle for loss?

Seriously, the Ray Thompson discussion comes up every four months or so. I'll be the first to admit that when I'm watching games, I don't really pay attention to what he's doing. I just don't really get it when people talk about the outstanding players on the defense and Raynoch's name comes up in the first three. I look at Raynoch's career stats, and there's nothing exciting there. He gets some tackles, but most of them are three-plus yards past the line of scrimmage. Like with Ronnie Mac and Pat Tillman, that doesn't count much for me.

I'm not making stuff up when I say that Raynoch was drafted to replace Jamir Miller. That's a fact. He was supposed to be the Cards' version of Rosie Colvin. Has he done that to this point in his career (when Rosie became a FA)? I think the answer to that is pretty obvious. Look at the stats for other actually-good OLBs in the league and it'll be pretty obvious that even if Ray-ray is one of the top players on our D, it doesn't really mean much.

Does that mean that Ray's part of the problem? I don't know. I personally think that the greatest problem has been the scheme and coaching of the defense overall. I just think that for all the pub for being good that Ray's gotten, much of it far less qualified by that for Adrian Wilson, the production would show up at some point on the field. He hasn't been part of the solution to this point, but then again, no one has.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by MaoTosiFanClub
Kerouac, did you even watch the Cardinals play the last two years?

Oh, and for the record, I went to every Cardinal home game in 2002 and only a handful in 2003 (Ravens, 49ers, all the preseason ones). I saw all the road games on TV until the point that I couldn't take it anymore and turned on Madden or the other game and tried to listen to the game on the radio.

I always wonder about the argument that "you can't see his value/production on the stat sheet." I think that's true of some positions, like Defensive Tackle, Fullback, blocking TE, maybe Safety in some systems (like Mac and Marmie's), but I never think about that for "Will" linebackers. The production on Weakside linebackers almost always shows up on the stat sheet.

 

[SECTION 11]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by lrk27
Vs GB. Fumble recovery in first quarter that lead to 7-0 lead. Cards win by 7.

vs. Cincinnati, game saving tackle on Peter Warrick on 4th & 10 with 39 seconds left, two yards short of the first down. Cards win 17-14.

vs. SF, broke up 2 pt. conversion pass early in game. Cards win 16-13 in OT.

90 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, 3 sacks, and 11 hurries in 12 games is a pretty good year for any LB.

I see where Jack's going with this. I think there is a tendancy to overvalue our own players sometimes. But in this particular case, you can't possibly argue that he wasn't our best playmaker at OLB last season.

 

[lrk27]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Actually

Originally posted by kerouac9
This I can agree with, though I don't know where you're getting the 90 tackles number (I got my 54 number from NFL.com). Both need to contribute to the level that was expected of them when they were aquired.

Official Cardinal stat sheet says 55 solo, 35 assisted = 90 total tackles. Total tackles is the number generally used as the defensive stat standard.