Realgm- Matrix on the block

[thegrahamcrackr]

sigh...

Does anyone take into account salaries? Do you guys realize that in order to do this trade, Dalembert would have to be given a contract that is in excess of 10 million dollars a year? I'm sorry, you don't pay that to someone based on "potential". You guys place more worth on him, he might as well be made of gold. You CANNOT trade Marion for Dalembert and Korver straight up, even. Korver's salary would be meaningless, so it comes to Dalembert for Marion.

The guy is fairly good right now, and has a chance to be great. But is it worth gambling that much money on him? No way. Is he worth as much money as Shawn Marion? If you can answer yes to that question, I think it's time to come back from fantasy land, or at least lay off the ganja.

I hear what you are saying, and the easiest way to get around it is including Mashburn (we would most likely need to add more as well).

 

[hcsilla]

Without Igoudala I wouldn't even listen to PHI's offers for Marion.

 

[cly2tw]

I hear what you are saying, and the easiest way to get around it is including Mashburn (we would most likely need to add more as well).

Do you mean to do the trade before the new FA signing starts, like at the draft day? So, maybe Marion +Jake for Dalembert + Iggy + Mashburn and their 2nd rounder on drafte day, and then we take care of matching any offer for Dalembert?

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm sorry, but Philadelphia isn't going to trade Dalmbert for Shawn Marion unless the Phoenix Suns are matching or offering more than teams like Atlanta, New Orleans, etc. Yes, we all know that Shawn Marion is a better player, but he is a small forward. Dalembert is a long, athletic Center who looks like a healthy Marcus Camby. Players like that have more value in today's NBA.

You guys calling for Iguodala as well are never, ever going to get that. The Philadelphia 76ers are not going to trade their best two players (other than AI obviously) for Shawn Marion.

I'm not sure how we can argue to a certainty that a trade won't work when we have no idea what the new CBA's trade restrictions will be. By most accounts the new CBA is supposed to loosen the current trade restrictions. I've read that it could be that salaries will only have two come within 25%.

Again, I'm sure Shawn Marion isn't going anywhere this summer. I suppose if things went really badly, or his whining to the media increased to the point he was becoming a problem he could be traded next season. I seriously doubt that it's going to happen though. You wouldn't know it from all of the moves over the last 10 seasons, but the Phoenix Suns desperately want to keep a core of players together. They want a core that the fans can really grow to love. They've got it right now. I don't think they'll break up the core until/unless it's clear they have to make moves to win a championship.

Joe Mama

 

[BC867]

...unless it's clear they have to make moves to win a championship.

Didn't we know, deep down all during the season, that the tremendous run by the Suns would end when we reached the Spurs and/or the Eastern champ? Even with a healthy JJ.

Year Two of replacing a Center with 'Q' alongside Amare and The Matrix is not destined to produce any better final results.

Yes, it does seem clear that they have to make a move in the fountcourt to win a Championship.

Don'tcha think so?

 

[Joe Mama]

Didn't we know, deep down all during the season, that the tremendous run by the Suns would end when we reached the Spurs and/or the Eastern champ? Even with a healthy JJ.

Year Two of replacing a Center with 'Q' alongside Amare and The Matrix is not destined to produce any better final results.

Yes, it does seem clear that they have to make a move in the fountcourt to win a Championship.

Don'tcha think so?

No, I don't think so. I don't think they have to change the system or their starting five in order to win a championship. They have to strengthen their bench, especially their frontcourt depth. They have to play more traditional lineups during the regular season, so they are better prepared to do it at times against teams like San Antonio or Miami. That doesn't mean they have to abandon skill ball or their current starting lineup.

Second, they need to improve defensively and on the boards. Of course having a traditional lineup on the floor more frequently will probably help in this area. I won't argue that. However there is a lot of room for improvement defensively and on the boards without making any lineup changes. I believe each of the players, especially Amare and Q, are going to be working hard to improve the defense before next season.

Despite the fact that they lost the WCF in only 5 games this team was not far from an NBA title. The nice thing about losing the way they did was that after words virtually everyone in the organization was technology what they have to do to be a stronger contender next season.

If the Phoenix Suns re-sign Hunter, re-sign JJ, draft/sign a 4/5, draft/sign another swingman, and work hard on defense and rebounding position in they will be in great shape.

Joe Mama

 

[devilalum]

Didn't we know, deep down all during the season, that the tremendous run by the Suns would end when we reached the Spurs and/or the Eastern champ? Even with a healthy JJ.

Year Two of replacing a Center with 'Q' alongside Amare and The Matrix is not destined to produce any better final results.

Yes, it does seem clear that they have to make a move in the fount court to win a Championship.

Don'tcha think so?

This is crazy.

The Suns need to improve but they were so close that they don't need to make major changes. Three small changes would have lifted the Suns over the Spurs.

1. A healthy JJ
2. A vet big man. Not a star or anything, just a solid body to give 15-20 minutes off the bench.
3. A young athletic skill player to help cut down on everybody elses PT and keep everybody fresh in the 4th quarter.

The Suns will have all of these things next year without trading anyone away.
Also don't be surprised if a really solid vet walks in the door and offers to play with the Suns for the minimum.

Suns next year:

Starters
Nash, JJ, Amare, Marion, Q

Bench
JJ2, #21(athletic high energy type), Solid MLE, Marshall is my first choice, solid vet for the min., LB one year older and wiser, Waltah?, Hunter?, second rounder?

Now that's a deeper team than the Spurs have.

Another thing lots of people seem to forget is that the Suns are much better when they are making other teams match up with their "Skill Ball" lineups.

They are not as good when they're trying to match up with other teams but playing Hunter with Amare etc...."Traditional Lineups"

 

[Tank]

 

[nothin' but net]

Maybe this has been said somewhere already.

What would it say to a potential free agent signee if we shipped off someone who was so key to getting us in the playoffs?

PHX already seems to have a reputation of getting in top players, working for a couple of years, then scrapping and rebuilding. I don't see top level teams doing that. If you are in the conference finals, you should be fine tuning. I agree with those who say keep the starters and use draft MLE and free agency to deepen the bench.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Ok the post about perception of the SUNS in the NBA is nonsensical. To fans it makes sense but these guys know this is a buisness. Phx has one of the best reps around and trading MArion would not alter that. What is really starting to draw my ire is the fans who keep saying "we won 62 games, would have beat the spurs blah, blah" While i conceed JJ would have made it a better series there is no way we win with SHAWN AT THE FOUR. It is a liability guys, you just have to understand that. When Amare started guarding duncan, Nazr just freaking kiiled us with big boards and low post scoring. Besides all this the real gm article makes a one good point. You cannot be this top heavy salary wise. we had a great year injury wise (cept JJ of course) and to think we are going to duplicate that again w/ are starters playing major minutes is faulty thinking. And no there is no MLE or 21st pick that will put us over the hump. To see how i feel about this (i actually suggested dalembert and iggy 4 marion a week ago, and yes chaplin we would have to work on the salaries but with sign and trade, mash and picks we could make it work) the thread "would you guys do this trade.." has a huge monologue on why BC would consider trading MArion. And for all of you who dont think he is at least making calls to see whats out there, well your head is stuck in the ground and there is no saving you anyway. Now boozer is a bad idea for this team because marion should definalty fetch a better player than that scrub. i like kirilinko but im not sure utah makes that trade......

 

[elindholm]

PHX already seems to have a reputation of getting in top players, working for a couple of years, then scrapping and rebuilding. I don't see top level teams doing that.

It's not "scrapping and rebuilding" if you trade your third or fourth best player to fill a need. No one accused the Suns of scrapping and rebuilding when they traded Hornacek and change for Barkley. Top level teams make roster adjustments all the time. For instance, during their recent run of being "almost" contenders (let's say it ended with the Webber trade), the Kings traded Jason Williams for Bibby, moved out Pollard and Turkoglu, and let Divac leave. None of those players is at Marion's level, but on the other hand, the Kings never had a glaring weakness as severe as the Suns' current one at the power positions.

 

[fordronken]

I'm afraid of what's going to happen with the financial flexibility side of it. Honestly, the best way, probably to fix it, would be trading Marion for cap space and a draft pick.

What it comes down to, is whether Sarver is going to be willing to spend the money to improve the team once it has all five starters locked up to long contracts at mostly big numbers. And if not, will they end up good enough to win a championship. In the end, you obviously won't get back equal talent for Marion. That's not the point. It ends up being about roster and financial flexibility. So, in the end, the question is, how much money are they willing to spend, and ultimately, what will each decision lead to.

Would we rather have Nash/Joe/Q/Shawn/Amare doing the brunt of the work and developing chemistry and team defense, trying to win a championship? Or make a trade with the only person that makes somewhat of sense. For example:

Trade Marion and #21 to New York for Tim Thomas, Trevor Ariza and the #8. Draft Channing Frye and hope he turns into a real center. Thomas can either re-sign for cheap or be waived after a year and give the team space to use their draft picks, pay for them, eventually re-sign them and even use the mid-level.

I don't know the answer, and obviously nobody else does either. But it comes down to a traditional starting lineup which still has a lot of talent and has some depth behind it, or an unconventional but unimagianably talented starting five with minimal depth and continual size/rebounding mismatches.

The answer, I believe, will in both cases come down to Amare and JJ. If they develop enough, a traditional lineup may work better. If they don't, the one we have now may make more sense. Or hopefully, Amare will become so good that it won't even matter. In fact, that one sounds best to me.

 

[JS22]

This is crazy.

The Suns need to improve but they were so close that they don't need to make major changes. Three small changes would have lifted the Suns over the Spurs.

1. A healthy JJ
2. A vet big man. Not a star or anything, just a solid body to give 15-20 minutes off the bench.
3. A young athletic skill player to help cut down on everybody elses PT and keep everybody fresh in the 4th quarter.

The Suns will have all of these things next year without trading anyone away.
Also don't be surprised if a really solid vet walks in the door and offers to play with the Suns for the minimum.

Suns next year:

Starters
Nash, JJ, Amare, Marion, Q

Bench
JJ2, #21(athletic high energy type), Solid MLE, Marshall is my first choice, solid vet for the min., LB one year older and wiser, Waltah?, Hunter?, second rounder?

Now that's a deeper team than the Spurs have.

Another thing lots of people seem to forget is that the Suns are much better when they are making other teams match up with their "Skill Ball" lineups.

They are not as good when they're trying to match up with other teams but playing Hunter with Amare etc...."Traditional Lineups"

Deeper? Yes. Worse? Yes.

 

[Chaplin]

Deeper? Yes. Worse? Yes.

How do you figure? It's the same exact team except with the #21 and an MLE-signed player.

 

[asudevil83]

i really dont think ANYONE wants to see Marion go, including management and the suns organization. but marion might HAVE TO go. the finaces of the suns probably wont be able to afford 4 max or near max contracts next season. that's tough for ANY team to stomach.

Marion will probably go for players that the suns need.....a C and a couple of bench players. i'd like to see us snag Dalambert/Iggy from Philly. they'd fit in perfectly in our situation. BUT, it would take a third team to make it happen. i thought of something that works for all teams....but it turns us a little bit into the Mavs (ditching players after a great year.) but here goes.

Suns Trade:
Marion/Q/Voskul
Suns Recieve:
Dalambert/Iggy/Mark Jackson/Najera

Denver Trades:
Nene/Najera
Denver Recieves:
Q/Voskuhl

Philly Trades:
Dalambert/Iggy/Jackson
Philly Recieves:
Marion/Nene

our new lineup:
Dalambert/Hunter
Amare/Diogu (draft)
JJ/Najera
Iggy/JJax/Barbs
Nash/Williams (FA)/Barbs

we'd be "stuck" with that team for at least three years.....and holding no financial strain. the payroll wouldnt excede $57mil.

 

[asudevil83]

i'd love to keep Marion though. he's a great guy for this organization as a player and person.

i'm watching ESPN news right now....and i truely think that he's staying on this team. he's just talking about what the suns need this offseason.....a big man and a backup PG.

 

[fordronken]

My earlier proposal, as I think about it long term, does make some sense.

Marion, #21

for

Tim Thomas, Trevor Ariza, #8

Next year's lineup looks like:

C Channing Frye
PF Amare Stoudemire
SF Quentin Richardson
SG Joe Johnson
PG Steve Nash

Bench:
Tim Thomas
Jim Jackson
Leandro Barbosa
Midlevel and/or Steven Hunter

 

[Mad Psyentist]

I think people are a little too optimistic with these trades. Trading for draft picks and cap space is so dangerous right now when when our window with Nash is only 2-3 years.

I dont know if people consider how big of it risk it is that a lot of these prospects turn out to be busts, or take 2-3 years just to develop (This is including even blue chip prospects). Then, usually by the time theyre worth keeping, they already want a big, shiny new contract. This doesnt help when we want someone to produce right away. I think people become too infatuated with draft prospects that they think most of these guys will even be around in the next few years.

As for trading for other players, do people also assume they will produce the same numbers on this team? that they will stay as injure-free as marion has? that they will mesh well with our current players?...but you might say theres always that risk...but the thing is, we already have a proven product in marion...we know what marion will give us and what he provides is already enough to help get us to the conference finals.

As for cap space. Ill be honest...who cares? we are winning, so its worth it. Even if we're in salary cap hell (which i dont think its that bad) or even if we know we will be....worry about it later. We are shooting for trying to win in the next 2-3 years...worry about it if our team doesnt progress or if we flop again and again. Its only been one year and i still feel we have room for improvement with our current roster.

Put it another way, I dont think its worth the risk of taking out one of our core players and replacing him with someone else and assuming that our team will, not only be as good as last year, but better with that new player.

and one final thing....yes, i am a bit of a marion homer, but thats not to say i think hes untradable. If someone offered a top prospect like garnett or duncan, its not like i would say no....why? because i know they are better players...because those are the trades you do in a heartbeat, because you know they will improve your team...but coincidentally, those are also fantasy trades.

 

[JS22]

How do you figure? It's the same exact team except with the #21 and an MLE-signed player.

Sorry, I meant worse as in "worse than the Spurs bench."

 

[JPlay]

Aren't you glad we're having a discussion on how the Suns are close to a championship if they just do these small things rather than can we make the playoffs next year.

 

[Chaplin]

Aren't you glad we're having a discussion on how the Suns are close to a championship if they just do these small things rather than can we make the playoffs next year.

You mean like trade Shawn Marion for scrubs and the #8?

 

[fordronken]

You mean like trade Shawn Marion for scrubs and the #8?

Heh. You do get what I'm saying, though, right? It's not about the talent you get back. I honestly think that with the right supporting parts, Nash/Amare/JJ are enough starting offensive talent to win a championship. The rest of it comes down to complementary role players, team defense, rebounding, and clutch play down the stretch. I love Marion, but I don't honestly know if he is going to be able to play power forward on a championship team with an undersized center. I also like what JJ will bring to the future of this team more than Marion. So, unless Q magically can bring us salary flexibility and a center, I'm a little worried about the chances of this team winning a championship without trading Marion, are only realistically tradeable asset.

I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to draft Petro and see him turn into a good enough center to send Q to the bench and win a trophy or 11. Again, and I've said this a lot, I don't know the answers, but I'm beginning to lean toward one which may give more possibilities for winning a championship.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

exactly right ford....some of us are thinking like GM's and some of us are thinking like fans. Fortunatly the GM is the one making the decision

 

[coloradosun]

Ok the post about perception of the SUNS in the NBA is nonsensical. To fans it makes sense but these guys know this is a buisness. Phx has one of the best reps around and trading MArion would not alter that. What is really starting to draw my ire is the fans who keep saying "we won 62 games, would have beat the spurs blah, blah" While i conceed JJ would have made it a better series there is no way we win with SHAWN AT THE FOUR. It is a liability guys, you just have to understand that. When Amare started guarding duncan, Nazr just freaking kiiled us with big boards and low post scoring. Besides all this the real gm article makes a one good point. You cannot be this top heavy salary wise. we had a great year injury wise (cept JJ of course) and to think we are going to duplicate that again w/ are starters playing major minutes is faulty thinking. And no there is no MLE or 21st pick that will put us over the hump. To see how i feel about this (i actually suggested dalembert and iggy 4 marion a week ago, and yes chaplin we would have to work on the salaries but with sign and trade, mash and picks we could make it work) the thread "would you guys do this trade.." has a huge monologue on why BC would consider trading MArion. And for all of you who dont think he is at least making calls to see whats out there, well your head is stuck in the ground and there is no saving you anyway. Now boozer is a bad idea for this team because marion should definalty fetch a better player than that scrub. i like kirilinko but im not sure utah makes that trade......

I think that I have agreed with all 7 of your posts. You have been here a short time but I have been stating a lot of the same reasons the Suns have to make some trades. They were very fortunate to get out the Penny/Marbury long term contracts (thank you NYK). Marion's and Q's stock is at their peak, buy low, sell high. I just think the ROI (return on investment) on these two will dimish in the coming seasons.

 

[Joe Mama]

exactly right ford....some of us are thinking like GM's and some of us are thinking like fans. Fortunatly the GM is the one making the decision

If you are advocating trading Shawn Marion this summer you are not thinking like a GM. That's fan talk all the way. there's absolutely no way the Phoenix Suns are trading Shawn Marion this summer. The only way he gets dealt within the next year is if he really starts complaining about his place on the team.

As for your idea of trading Shawn Marion for Dalembert and Iguodala... as a Phoenix Suns fan I would make that trade. I like both of those players a lot, but there's a big problem with your trade. Philadelphia would NEVER do it. They love those players. Those are their best young players.

Joe Mama