Reasons why Suns lose in playoffs

[asudevil83]

The biggest stat of all: 42-12. Best record in the league. Until teams find other ways to beat the Suns, your argument holds no water.

hell yeah it does. teams like GS and Utah are ALMOST BEATING US. we used to destroy teams like that. we arent right now. that points to something being wrong.

are we playing good, smart basketball. NO. their is no denying it. you cant say that just because we are winning we are playing well. and if you do, well their isnt any point in argueing with you....because that is blind foolishness. we are lucky to be winning right now.

 

[playstation]

oh-no! we almost losing! and this is the most important time of year to be showing your dominance as a team, despite nagging injuries!

 

[sly fly]

hell yeah it does. teams like GS and Utah are ALMOST BEATING US. we used to destroy teams like that. we arent right now. that points to something being wrong.

are we playing good, smart basketball. NO. their is no denying it. you cant say that just because we are winning we are playing well. and if you do, well their isnt any point in argueing with you....because that is blind foolishness. we are lucky to be winning right now.

You forget to mention that other teams are gunning for us on every night. Couple this with PHX STILL going through growing pains... and winning at the same time.

The NBA schedule is grueling. There are gonna be ugly wins. The fact remains PHX continues to put W's up.

Washington beats San Antonio. Miami beats San Antonio. Where's the uproar?

As mentioned before, this team is still learning how to play with each other. As long as their peaking come playoff time... that's all that matters.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah New Orleans

of our 41 wins - 24 of them have been by TEN POINTS OR MORE.

Jplay - I just think you're standards for a team that until the last two game s of last year was the WORST TEAM IN THE WEST are incredibly too high. You're complaining that we have the second best point differential in the league by bringing up NO - what about the T-wolves, the Heat, the Cavs, or have beaten Dallas, Sacto and Seattle - all on the road?

I mean - the Spurs have only beaten 7 teams by 20 points or more - we have beaten 5 - what is your deal?

 

[Cheesebeef]

you know what, i agree with the defense aspect, but with a caveat (which means an explanation to avoid misunderstanding a just learned today!): I have seen the suns play darn near perfect, and if they can do it again (I don't see why not), I think they win the title. I know, easier said than done, but case in point, 6 game stretch from 1/1-1/11:

Sun 2 Portland W 117-98 Stoudemire 50 Stoudemire 11 Nash 10
-completely demolished them. imposed will in 1st half, cruised to victory

Tue 4 at Minnesota W 122-115 Stoudemire 34 Stoudemire 8 Nash 16
-completely demolished them. up by 20 w/ 5 min left before amare ejected...

Wed 5 at Houston W 108-98 Marion 22 Richardson 14 Nash 13
-close final score, but rox never threatened, we led the whole game, 2nd of back to back...

Sat 8 at LA Clippers W 108-91 Johnson 23 Marion 11 Nash 10
-completely demolished them. 20 lead after 1st qtr, cruised...

Sun 9 Indiana W 124-89 Marion 21 Stoudemire 14 Nash 9
-completely demolished them. 20 lead after 1st qtr, cruised...

Tue 11 Miami W 122-107 Stoudemire 34 Marion 11 Nash 16
-completely demolished them. 15 lead after 1st qtr, cruised...

those 6 games show me that if they put forth their best effort, they are REDICULOUSLY good. imo, during the dog days, you praise WINS, you don't nitpick about HOW they win. I want them playing their best heading into the postseason, not now...

totally agree. These are the dog days of the season - take wins right now anyway you can get 'em.

 

[Chaz]

totally agree - what team has EVER just shot up like us and won a title? It took the Spurs a couple years with Duncan - it took the Pistons a couple years, it took the Lakers a couple years with Shaq and Kobe - it took the Bulls a couple years of losing in the playoffs - it took the 80's Pistons a couple years - hell - it even took the Rockets years of playoff failure to get there - basically - every team to win a title in the last 15 years has had to get over on SOMEONE before they finally made it.

Really - the only one in recent memory to do so were the 80's Lakers and Celtics - and well - that was all Magic and Bird - arguably two of the 5 greatest players of all time.

I presume we'll have to take our lumps just like every other great team before achieving that top goal - I even look forward to the heartache as it will ultimately make the championship even sweeter.

The Spurs won in Duncan's rookie year I think (1999). Of course that was a 50 win team that had bad injuries one year and added the number 1 pick.


In general I agree that the Suns will probably take a year or so to get to that championship level. For now just enjoy the ride and enjoy the fact that we are way ahead of the curve and far as improvement goes.

 

[JPlay]

of our 41 wins - 24 of them have been by TEN POINTS OR MORE.

Jplay - I just think you're standards for a team that until the last two game s of last year was the WORST TEAM IN THE WEST are incredibly too high. You're complaining that we have the second best point differential in the league by bringing up NO - what about the T-wolves, the Heat, the Cavs, or have beaten Dallas, Sacto and Seattle - all on the road?

I mean - the Spurs have only beaten 7 teams by 20 points or more - we have beaten 5 - what is your deal?

What is your deal. Why do you try so hard to justify that the Suns are so dominant when they clearly struggle all game to put teams away. Have you read any of my earlier posts. You fail to mention that aspect. Like someone said earlier, they used to dominate these weaker teams with 20+ wins and now they struggle all game to get the win. It's totally obvious. I don't care how many stats you throw around, it's the truth. And that fact is our lack of defense makes us very vunerable. Almost all of the Suns losses have come to the elite and/or physical teams in this league. When our shots aren't falling against teams with good defenses we can't win, because we don't play good enough D to win any other way.

I want the Suns to get better defensively because that's how you win championships.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Spurs won in Duncan's rookie year I think (1999). Of course that was a 50 win team that had bad injuries one year and added the number 1 pick.


In general I agree that the Suns will probably take a year or so to get to that championship level. For now just enjoy the ride and enjoy the fact that we are way ahead of the curve and far as improvement goes.

actaully, the Spurs won in Duncan's 2nd year - the lockout year. The first year - they beat the Suns - ugh - in round one when we had homecourt but lost Danny Manning and Rex Chapman right before the playoffs and then went on to lose to the Jazz in 5 games in the second round.

 

[asudevil83]

What is your deal. Why do you try so hard to justify that the Suns are so dominant when they clearly struggle all game to put teams away. Have you read any of my earlier posts. You fail to mention that aspect. Like someone said earlier, they used to dominate these weaker teams with 20+ wins and now they struggle all game to get the win. It's totally obvious. I don't care how many stats you throw around, it's the truth. And that fact is our lack of defense makes us very vunerable. Almost all of the Suns losses have come to the elite and/or physical teams in this league. When our shots aren't falling against teams with good defenses we can't win, because we don't play good enough D to win any other way.

I want the Suns to get better defensively because that's how you win championships.

THANK YOU....you took the words right out of my mouth.

many of the stats that have been thrown around claiming that the suns are dominate are from earlier in the season, and show no merit when looking how we are playing now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What is your deal. Why do you try so hard to justify that the Suns are so dominant when they clearly struggle all game to put teams away. Have you read any of my earlier posts. You fail to mention that aspect. Like someone said earlier, they used to dominate these weaker teams with 20+ wins and now they struggle all game to get the win. It's totally obvious. I don't care how many stats you throw around, it's the truth. And that fact is our lack of defense makes us very vunerable. Almost all of the Suns losses have come to the elite and/or physical teams in this league. When our shots aren't falling against teams with good defenses we can't win, because we don't play good enough D to win any other way.

I want the Suns to get better defensively because that's how you win championships.

I agree with you you numbskull. Where am I saying we're dominant? You are once again putting words into my mouth. Oh - and genius - almost all of GOOD teams losses come at the hands of GOOD TEAMS - that's how things usually work out and most times you do gets wins - THEY ARE CLOSE WINS - especially on the road. The Spurs are the exception because... wait for it... THEY ARE THE EBST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

Again - I don't think this team is ready to win a title - but you are giving them SO LITTLE credit at this point man. Sheesh - take a pill or something.

 

[Cheesebeef]

THANK YOU....you took the words right out of my mouth.

many of the stats that have been thrown around claiming that the suns are dominate are from earlier in the season, and show no merit when looking how we are playing now.

the schedule has gotten much tougher, and asu - you do realize that out of our last 11 games - we've had THREE road games, right? Are we as dominant as we were, hell no - but we're still winning during the dog days of february - and even finding ways to win even when we're not playing well. A good team needs to learn how to do that to otherwise if you just have blowouts - which is apparently what you guys think this team should be doing as if they were they 1996 Bulls, they would never be prepared for tough close playoff games down the stretch.

Sorry you guys believed we were as good as that 31-4 record to start the season - it's not my fault you didn't realize we were int he soft part of our schedule there and probably not as good as that record indicated. And for everyone bitching and moaning - we are 9-2 since Nash came back - considering we were a lottery team, you'd think people here would be happy with a .870 winning percentage. Good lord you guys - get a dictionary -look up the word perspective - you'll see something familiar next to it - a drawing of you with a big red X through it.

 

[asudevil83]

the schedule has gotten much tougher, and asu - you do realize that out of our last 11 games - we've had THREE road games, right? Are we as dominant as we were, hell no - but we're still winning during the dog days of february - and even finding ways to win even when we're not playing well. A good team needs to learn how to do that to otherwise if you just have blowouts - which is apparently what you guys think this team should be doing as if they were they 1996 Bulls, they would never be prepared for tough close playoff games down the stretch.

Sorry you guys believed we were as good as that 31-4 record to start the season - it's not my fault you didn't realize we were int he soft part of our schedule there and probably not as good as that record indicated. And for everyone bitching and moaning - we are 9-2 since Nash came back - considering we were a lottery team, you'd think people here would be happy with a .870 winning percentage. Good lord you guys - get a dictionary -look up the word perspective - you'll see something familiar next to it - a drawing of you with a big red X through it.

woe woe woe woe here.....nowhere did i say that this team should be winning like they were back when we were 31-4. nowhere did i say that we should be winning like the 96 bulls. in fact i'm taking this completely different stance that what you are assuming.

i for one think that our torrid start was more of a combination of beating bad teams, going on a hot streak, then beating more bad teams. our play right now is more indicitive of what we have to offer, both right now and in the playoffs.

so, what i'm saying is that right now this is the kind of play to expect from this team for the remainder of the season...and that's why i'm not expecting the ring this year. we are extremely weak in places that will only hurt us and affect us negatively where we are strong.

if anything, i should have said this to you:

"Sorry you guys believed we were as good as that 31-4 record to start the season - it's not my fault you didn't realize we were int he soft part of our schedule there and probably not as good as that record indicated."

you were the one using our early success as a reason to say that we have what it take to go deep in the playoffs. and you have pretty much just recanted everything that people have used as an arguement (our 42-12 record, our 10+ point wins, etc). i was mearly trying to say that we've been playing horribly lately, and that our lack of defense and rebounding is starting to catch up with us.

 

[Cheesebeef]

you were the one using our early success as a reason to say that we have what it take to go deep in the playoffs. i was mearly trying to say that we've been playing horribly lately, and that our lack of defense and rebounding is starting to catch up with us.

uh - actually - I have been pretty consistent in saying all along that I don't think we have a shot to beat SA - and am actually a little more fearful of Seattle than I was a week ago and I could see us losing a tough six or seven game series against them. I just think JPlay is going to such an extreme that I am trying to balance out his ridiculousness.

And even though we've been playing horribly lately - we are still 9-2 playing horribly - and I DO believe that some of it is us just hitting the wall and playing a tough stretch.

 

[Billythekid]

Can we find other ways to win when teams shut down our strengths, the perimeter game and/or the fast break game? After playing the same team 5 or 6 times in a playoff series, they’ll make the necessary adjustments, or at least try to. It'll be interesting to see how we respond.

I think though we have too many weapons to be completely shut out of our game. It'll be a matter of guys stepping up and playing how they've played throughout the reg season, and then some... and also playing some D.

I'm confident we can advance in the playoffs.

 

[asudevil83]

uh - actually - I have been pretty consistent in saying all along that I don't think we have a shot to beat SA - and am actually a little more fearful of Seattle than I was a week ago and I could see us losing a tough six or seven game series against them. I just think JPlay is going to such an extreme that I am trying to balance out his ridiculousness.

And even though we've been playing horribly lately - we are still 9-2 playing horribly - and I DO believe that some of it is us just hitting the wall and playing a tough stretch.

oh my...well now we have pretty much nothing to argue about now.

i will say though that the suns have lost their edge. remember when we were on a tear...and that team thought they could beat anyone. other coaches where saying "this is the scariest team this year" and "they are the most talented team we've played" and "we cant stop them"....well, when was the last time you heard that? its almost as though the tables have turned in a way. we are afraid to play even lowly teams. some of us even had apprehensions about the jazz just last night. we shouldnt even be thinking about that, especially on at home. but we are....and its scary.

and i want to say that its because we are in a rut....but the more i see it, the more i think that we are getting tired and worn out because of the game we play. we are spending all our energy on offense without a lick of defense. this in turn makes us play harder on offense, and even less on defense. you see when this is going now.

i really think that we might be in trouble come playoff time....and i really wouldnt be suprised if we fell off a bit more and struggled to hold our position at the top of the pacific just before the playoffs started.

 

[asudevil83]

i must also add that i'm greatful that we've only got 4 true games in the rest of February. the Clips, Dallas twice, and Boston. that'll technically be 5 games (allstar included) in the next 13 days.

 

[Cheesebeef]

oh my...well now we have pretty much nothing to argue about now.

i will say though that the suns have lost their edge. remember when we were on a tear...and that team thought they could beat anyone. other coaches where saying "this is the scariest team this year" and "they are the most talented team we've played" and "we cant stop them"....well, when was the last time you heard that? its almost as though the tables have turned in a way. we are afraid to play even lowly teams. some of us even had apprehensions about the jazz just last night. we shouldnt even be thinking about that, especially on at home. but we are....and its scary.

and i want to say that its because we are in a rut....but the more i see it, the more i think that we are getting tired and worn out because of the game we play. we are spending all our energy on offense without a lick of defense. this in turn makes us play harder on offense, and even less on defense. you see when this is going now.

i really think that we might be in trouble come playoff time....and i really wouldnt be suprised if we fell off a bit more and struggled to hold our position at the top of the pacific just before the playoffs started.

I really donm't disagree with anything you're saying above - expect for the very last part. The Kings freaking suck and we have 5 more home games than roadies coming up and I think we'll go on one more mini-tear before the season's out. I think it's a combo of dog-days/worn out but I do epxect us to pick it up as the season comes to a close - I think Nash will be able to inject a sense of urgency into this squad who i think just got a little too fat in the head because of that great start.

And if they get Memphis in the first round - all bets are off - they scare the crap out of me. Don't get me wrong - I'm not stoked on how we're playing right now - I liked being able to check the yahoo score in the thrid and see us up 20 - but teams have adjusted and now it's time to see if DA can do it back - it seems as if he's trying to do something bringing Jake in, but only time will tell.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i must also add that i'm greatful that we've only got 4 true games in the rest of February. the Clips, Dallas twice, and Boston. that'll technically be 5 games (allstar included) in the next 13 days.

yeah - me too - our schedule has been killer after a pretty soft opening and it gets tough again next month with 14 games and another 5 game roadie.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

woe woe woe woe here.....nowhere did i say that this team should be winning like they were back when we were 31-4. nowhere did i say that we should be winning like the 96 bulls. in fact i'm taking this completely different stance that what you are assuming.

i for one think that our torrid start was more of a combination of beating bad teams, going on a hot streak, then beating more bad teams. our play right now is more indicitive of what we have to offer, both right now and in the playoffs.

so, what i'm saying is that right now this is the kind of play to expect from this team for the remainder of the season...and that's why i'm not expecting the ring this year. we are extremely weak in places that will only hurt us and affect us negatively where we are strong.

if anything, i should have said this to you:

"Sorry you guys believed we were as good as that 31-4 record to start the season - it's not my fault you didn't realize we were int he soft part of our schedule there and probably not as good as that record indicated."

you were the one using our early success as a reason to say that we have what it take to go deep in the playoffs. and you have pretty much just recanted everything that people have used as an arguement (our 42-12 record, our 10+ point wins, etc). i was mearly trying to say that we've been playing horribly lately, and that our lack of defense and rebounding is starting to catch up with us.

you know, i really think you and beef are in agreement. i just think use of the word "horribly lately" in the midst of a 9-2 run is a tad bit ridiculolus.

 

[Chaz]

oh my...well now we have pretty much nothing to argue about now.

i will say though that the suns have lost their edge. remember when we were on a tear...and that team thought they could beat anyone. other coaches where saying "this is the scariest team this year" and "they are the most talented team we've played" and "we cant stop them"....well, when was the last time you heard that? its almost as though the tables have turned in a way. we are afraid to play even lowly teams. some of us even had apprehensions about the jazz just last night. we shouldnt even be thinking about that, especially on at home. but we are....and its scary.

and i want to say that its because we are in a rut....but the more i see it, the more i think that we are getting tired and worn out because of the game we play. we are spending all our energy on offense without a lick of defense. this in turn makes us play harder on offense, and even less on defense. you see when this is going now.

i really think that we might be in trouble come playoff time....and i really wouldnt be suprised if we fell off a bit more and struggled to hold our position at the top of the pacific just before the playoffs started.

The switch over was in January. We beat the heat and were on top of the world. Beating the best teams in the east in blowouts.

Then we went to the Jazz, they beat the hell out of us and they won the game. Then Indiana does the same and Nash goes down.

They were as hot as the Sun to start the season. They hit their peak when they beat Miami. I like the additions but I don't know that they have enough bodies to go all the way.

If Amare continutes his improvement on defense and they stay healty they will be plenty dangerous come playoff time. We know this is a good regular season team, I just want to enjoy that for now. I will worry about the playoffs when they get here.

At one time the playoffs were thought to be a good goal for the Suns, so once they make that anything else is a bonus.

 

[Joe Mama]

If Amare continutes his improvement on defense and they stay healty they will be plenty dangerous come playoff time. We know this is a good regular season team, I just want to enjoy that for now. I will worry about the playoffs when they get here.

I'm not sure I have seen any improvement on defense for Amare Stoudemire. Sure he could still learn a thing or two. Even when he puts forth a full effort he isn't a great defender. However he is pretty good. As far as I can see the biggest problem with Amare's defense and much of his problems on the boards are solved by simply giving a full effort. He just doesn't do it most nights. I'm hoping that by playoff time he will have saved enough energy to be a monster on both ends of the court. I'm honestly not holding my breath though.

Also, as thegrahamcrackr pointed out a good part of the entire team's problem on the defensive boards is that they are running down the court for fast breaks instead of securing the rebounds. Amare in particular likes to release early for the fast break.

Joe

 

[elindholm]

Also, as thegrahamcrackr pointed out a good part of the entire team's problem on the defensive boards is that they are running down the court for fast breaks instead of securing the rebounds. Amare in particular likes to release early for the fast break.

I haven't broken down the numbers, but my impression is that the Suns do less well when Stoudemire has a good (10+) rebounding game. Anyone want to try to make that a rigorous observation? Probably we'd have to look at point spread instead of just W-L.

 

[scotsman13]

I want the Suns to get better defensively because that's how you win championships.

Sorry jplay you dont win by playing defense you win by putting more points on the board then the other team. while defense is an important part of putting more points on the board it isnt the most important or the only part. the best defense hasnt been the team that won the championship. how many championships did the knicks or the heat win during the 90's? none, even through they had the best defense. looking back the team that has the best point diff. ends up winning more times then not but even this isnt always true.

winning a championship, is about luck, having one or more players that can carry the scoring load (think of amare in the 3rd quarter against the jazz, every time he got the ball he scored or drew a foul). in a matter a of minutes the jazz's defense was nothing but a some guys in the locker room and some players on the bench with 4 and 5 fouls. and playing enough defense to insure that your put more points on the baord the other guys. also experance is very important.

 

[CardNots]

For the last time - to be PERFECTLY CLEAR - I DON'T THINK THIS TEAM CAN WIN A TITLE - but with the best recor din the league, witht he second highest point differential in the league and in his first full season as head coach, can you not cut a guy A LITTLE FREAKING SLACK HERE? like I said -if we lose to anyone else besides SA, you can bitch and moan all you want AND I'LL PROBABLY BE THREE WITH YOU - but until then, I think it's too early to say any style won't work in the first couple round sof the playoffs.

cheesebeef,
You are too funny. Keep in mind this, the second half has yet to unfold. Those who say "WE CAN'T WIN A TITLE THIS YEAR" are people who are trying to envision the future which can't be done. They are using proven models of title winning to justify why the SUNS can't win this year.

As a fan of the SUNS, I get a little PO'd when people try to dampen my hope by using statistical models. My hope for this year will only be replaced by my hope for the next year.

I agree with your comments...

 

[JPlay]

Sorry jplay you dont win by playing defense you win by putting more points on the board then the other team. while defense is an important part of putting more points on the board it isnt the most important or the only part. the best defense hasnt been the team that won the championship. how many championships did the knicks or the heat win during the 90's? none, even through they had the best defense. looking back the team that has the best point diff. ends up winning more times then not but even this isnt always true.

winning a championship, is about luck, having one or more players that can carry the scoring load (think of amare in the 3rd quarter against the jazz, every time he got the ball he scored or drew a foul). in a matter a of minutes the jazz's defense was nothing but a some guys in the locker room and some players on the bench with 4 and 5 fouls. and playing enough defense to insure that your put more points on the baord the other guys. also experance is very important.

Defense doesn't win championships. Are you out of your gourd? Defense does win championships, however I agree with your second statement that you must also have balance on the offensive side. That's what those great defensive teams were missing. The Suns are definately off balance right now.