Ref. fixing games?

[sunsfn]

Considering a good chunk of this board bitched about the officiating after every one of the Suns losses this year, people coming back and saying "I told you so' is pretty amusing. On top of that, any fixer would tell you they do not affect the outcome of a game but rather the margin of victory or defeat.

If Amare is out in the half way point of the 1st quarter, and plays 21 minutes instead of 40 because of fouls, and when he plays he is worried about getting called for more fouls than playing his regular game, you do not think that would effect the outcome of the game?

 

[Cheesebeef]

If Amare is out in the half way point of the 1st quarter, and plays 21 minutes instead of 40 because of fouls, and when he plays he is worried about getting called for more fouls than playing his regular game, you do not think that would effect the outcome of the game?

i gotta say, even I was REALLY bent out of shape over the officiating in that game and I am loathe to get on the officials. Does that mean Donagy bet on it or had an impact? No, but it definitely makes me think it's not out of this world to think that he did.

 

[hsandhu]

i gotta say, even I was REALLY bent out of shape over the officiating in that game and I am loathe to get on the officials. Does that mean Donagy bet on it or had an impact? No, but it definitely makes me think it's not out of this world to think that he did.

I remember that game thread very well, as I missed the first half of the game, came back to see that you were telling jbeechem to go ahead and rip the refs, and I was shocked to hear that from you.

I would guess Donaghy wasnt on the take that game, as you would think an investigation would have had to start earlier than may. But damn, if he was.
What is gonna happen to this league?

At the very least that SHOULD be the last nail in the coffin of stern's reign. Everybody calls him the best commish in sports, but he's living off of the 80's when he did a lot to change the image of the game. Since the mid 90's the league has gone downhill everyyear, and he's a big reason for it.

 

[Ryanwb]

You know there is more money riding on a playoff game than a regular season game..... I could careless about regular season games. Game 3 was a suckers bet if you could control the out come and I bet he played it up the most in that game

 

[Jay Cardinal]

Here's a link to the game he officiated in the playoffs:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007051224

 

[carrrnuttt]

I blame Stern for all of it.

David Stern, or at least his "people" (approved by him) are the ones that allowed the atmosphere that allows referees to to be able to influence games.

How long has Stern been defending his referees' "monitoring and evaluation" that they supposedly do? Not to mention, Stern also refuses to make public how these refs are supposedly "monitored".

 

[Ryanwb]

I blame Stern for all of it.

David Stern, or at least his "people" (approved by him) are the ones that allowed the atmosphere that allows referees to to be able to influence games.

How long has Stern been defending his referees' "monitoring and evaluation" that they supposedly do? Not to mention, Stern also refuses to make public how these refs are supposedly "monitored".

Your argument is very weak, how are referees not going to influence a game? They judge the action on the court, they have the ability to decide a game, but it hardly ever happens. In a utopia their calls would never directly affect the outcome of a game they would call the fouls and enforce the rules and everything would be peachy.

Also, Stern has a responsibility to defend the referees or he would be weakening the product. That would be like Bill Gates going on TV saying, "Yeah we have pretty bad programmers, Windows sucks ass".

To say this is Sterns fault at this point is preposterous

 

[CardShark]

Your argument is very weak, how are referees not going to influence a game? They judge the action on the court, they have the ability to decide a game, but it hardly ever happens. In a utopia their calls would never directly affect the outcome of a game they would call the fouls and enforce the rules and everything would be peachy.

Also, Stern has a responsibility to defend the referees or he would be weakening the product. That would be like Bill Gates going on TV saying, "Yeah we have pretty bad programmers, Windows sucks ass".

To say this is Sterns fault at this point is preposterous

You really have to be kidding. Stern's responsibility is not to the refs but to the game. He should be able to evaluate a game and if it's called correctly. If he can't then he has no business being the commisioner. If it's true that he was aware of the investigation, then he should've been scrutinizing it even closer. He really left the league dangling in the wind on this one. He needs to go.

 

[TBaslim]

Dont forget game 3 vs spurs this year

My mind is blown.

Yup. Game 3 of the Spurs series was the worse reff'd game I ever saw in 25 years of watching NBA games. No homer talk here - it was just plain awful. Calls both ways were terrible, and the flow was uneven at best. Makes sense if someone was point shaving.

As soon as I saw the headline about game fixin', I wondered if it was a ref who helped call that travesty.

 

[TBaslim]

heres another pic from the NY Times:

You must be registered for see images attach

Great pic - reminds me how damn tall NBA players are...

 

[carrrnuttt]

Your argument is very weak, how are referees not going to influence a game? They judge the action on the court, they have the ability to decide a game, but it hardly ever happens. In a utopia their calls would never directly affect the outcome of a game they would call the fouls and enforce the rules and everything would be peachy.

Also, Stern has a responsibility to defend the referees or he would be weakening the product. That would be like Bill Gates going on TV saying, "Yeah we have pretty bad programmers, Windows sucks ass".

To say this is Sterns fault at this point is preposterous

LMAO

How do refute thee? Let me count the ways:

1. Referees are not there to influence the game. They are there to: Referee.
   • http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/referee

     (in certain games and sports) a judge having functions fixed by the rules of the game or sport; umpire.

   • It's the subjectiveness allowed these referees that has allowed referees across the history of the NBA to influence it. Their feelings or prejudices should never affect anything, just as a legal court judge's rulings never should either.
   • I understand it is a fast-paced game, and things can be overlooked in the heat of the game, but it is obvious that either Stern and his league does not scrutinize past mistakes enough, or the referees aren't punished worth a damn even if mistakes are found. Otherwise, worrying about a referees detachment wouldn't be so rampant.
2. I happen to be a web/software developer, and the referees aren't even close to what they would be to Stern as what Bill Gates' developers are to him. Developers are to Gates as BASKETBALL PLAYERS are to Stern. Referees are a necessary evil - "enforcing" the rules as STERN SEES FIT, and as far as Stern ALLOWS THEM TO.
   • Which to me, is one of the most baffling things about this, as Stern is quick to publicly discipline players, even coaches and owners, but are so secretive about his referees. Especially since Stern's biggest obligations, I would imagine, are to the owners and fans, who are getting screwed left and right (imagined or not), by referees.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Fox News just said donaghy was allegedly caught via wiretap by the feds

hard to fight the wiretap, he is screwed!

Will he name names or is it just him?

stay tuned for more!

 

[Joe Mama]

LMAO

How do refute thee? Let me count the ways:

1. Referees are not there to influence the game. They are there to: Referee.
   • http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/referee
   • It's the subjectiveness allowed these referees that has allowed referees across the history of the NBA to influence it. Their feelings or prejudices should never affect anything, just as a legal court judge's rulings never should either.
   • I understand it is a fast-paced game, and things can be overlooked in the heat of the game, but it is obvious that either Stern and his league does not scrutinize past mistakes enough, or the referees aren't punished worth a damn even if mistakes are found. Otherwise, worrying about a referees detachment wouldn't be so rampant.
2. I happen to be a web/software developer, and the referees aren't even close to what they would be to Stern as what Bill Gates' developers are to him. Developers are to Gates as BASKETBALL PLAYERS are to Stern. Referees are a necessary evil - "enforcing" the rules as STERN SEES FIT, and as far as Stern ALLOWS THEM TO.
   • Which to me, is one of the most baffling things about this, as Stern is quick to publicly discipline players, even coaches and owners, but are so secretive about his referees. Especially since Stern's biggest obligations, I would imagine, are to the owners and fans, who are getting screwed left and right (imagined or not), by referees.

You are really talking about two separate issues here. If you want to complain that the referees were not enforcing the rules of the game, especially during the playoffs, I'm right there with you. That's what cost the Phoenix Suns the series against San Antonio IMO.

But that's not what we are talking about here. You guys are saying that David Stern should be able to spot a single referee involved in a point shaving scam. The referees in the NBA get reviewed over and over again. Every foul they call gets reviewed. Everybody is going to make some bad calls, so it's going to be extremely difficult to spot the problem.

He could not have graded too low since he was refereeing playoff games.

I honestly think David Stern catches far too much crap. To blame this one on him seems borderline ludicrous in my eyes. Hell, I can't even blame him for suspending Amare Stoudemire. I think he had room to allow Boris Diaw to play, but Amare definitely should have been suspended according to the rules. The owners had the chance to get rid of the rule or change it, and they decided not to do it.

Joe Mama

 

[carrrnuttt]

He could not have graded too low since he was refereeing playoff games.

And you don't think this is a problem???

Edit:

I'm adding the post I made in another forum below:

Are the rules for what is a foul and what isn't set? Are actual acts on the floor, VS what was called not studied from every angle? Aren't non-calls called attention to?

Even me, with a DVR and a frame-by-frame look at what the referee called (or didn't call), can see where a referee blew a call. I don't have the advantage of multiple angles and advanced equipment the NBA does. Obviously, if Tim Donaghy was enforcing the rules he's supposed to enforce, he won't be able to influence spreads. Which, in logic, means that he will have to have blown a call here and there. One blown call is too many, especially with such tight competition. Yet, Tim Donaghy was "good" enough to officiate for the Playoffs.

It'd be one thing if this was an employee sneaking insider info to friends/family/competition on the side, it's another when ALL YOUR ACTS ARE RECORDED FROM MULTIPLE ANGLES EVERY NIGHT.

 

[SO91]

For those of you arguing Stern should have done something earlier, as I understand it, the Feds informed the league of the investigation, told them to cooperate and not make it known publicly, in order to continue.

 

[Dback Jon]

For those of you arguing Stern should have done something earlier, as I understand it, the Feds informed the league of the investigation, told them to cooperate and not make it known publicly, in order to continue.

So he allowed two years of "competition" go on, knowing that at least one ref was fixing games? That's reassuring....

 

[schutd]

Think about it though, what a bind to be put in. Is it even plausible that Stern, had he removed the ref from officiating games could have been prosecuted for obstruction of justice? The ref in this whole mess is but one piece in a federal investigation into the mob and illegal gambling. Whats Stern supposed to do? Whats he even allowed to do?

 

[F-Dog]

Whats Stern supposed to do? Whats he even allowed to do?

Not send a crooked ref to officiate in the de facto finals? There are plenty of second-round series Donaghy didn't get a chance to touch.

 

[SO91]

The Post mentions that the investigation began over a year ago. We still don't know (at least I'm not aware of it) when Stern was informed of the investigation into one of his referees.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Everyone seems to miss the point that fixers influence margin of victory or defeat or the total points scored. Directly calling a game so that a specific team wins or loses especially in the NBA playoffs is far too easy for investigators (casino employees) to catch on to.

And another misconception is that it would be easy to go back to a certain game and see Donaghy botching calls left and right and deduce that he was fixing those games. In reality, the games he likely fixed were the ones his influence on the game was the least noticeable. Remember - Joe Jackson hit .350 in the World Series he threw. Hedake Smith once put up 35 points in a game he was fixing. If it was as obvious as you guys are making it out to be Donaghy would've been busted years ago.

 

[F-Dog]

Everyone seems to miss the point that fixers influence margin of victory or defeat or the total points scored. Directly calling a game so that a specific team wins or loses especially in the NBA playoffs is far too easy for investigators (casino employees) to catch on to.

If Donaghy is on the Spurs -4.5 in game 3, then yes, he needs the Suns to lose. It's not possible for the Spurs to cover if the Suns win the game.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If Donaghy is on the Spurs -4.5 in game 3, then yes, he needs the Suns to lose. It's not possible for the Spurs to cover if the Suns win the game.

Such a game wouldn't be fixed for a multitude of reasons.

The games you need to look at are the ones where the Suns were heavy favorites yet only won by a small margin.

 

[Muggum]

You provide me with a list of reasons why that game wouldn't be one of the ones he fixed... and I'll counter with a list of reasons why it WOULD hae been.

And the FBI will sort it out for us. We're going to have our answer, that's the tragic beauty of this.

 

[F-Dog]

Such a game wouldn't be fixed for a multitude of reasons.

The games you need to look at are the ones where the Suns were heavy favorites yet only won by a small margin.

What I hear is that Donaghy was convinced these mobsters would kill him at some point. These guys weren't amateurs playing games like the folks at ASU.


Who are you to say what they would or wouldn't dare to attempt?

 

[azsouthendzone]

I want whatever beer Tosi is having.