Reveling in the Cardinals and the Upsides of the Draftees

Garthshort

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Posts
9,497
Reaction score
5,753
Location
Scarsdale, NY
Mitch, could you forward this article to Mike Sando? It would give him an informed view of the Cardinals' draft, from a fan's perspective. Mike, IMO, does a VG job of covering the NFC West, and your analysis would give him a lot of food for thought. JMO.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
I have a slightly different take on our draft - between Roberts and Schofield.

I think Rod Graves - who had 4 items on his shopping list (CB, ILB, QB and TE) but only 3 picks - took a calculated risk and traded seven spots down from #123 to #130.

I don't know what he had at the top of his board, but three guys leapt off the page at the top of my board: (1) a Dansby Clone (Eric Norwood), (2) a fast-rising corner (Ansah) and (3) another fast-rising TE (Harbor).

I believe Graves figured he could get one of the three 7 picks later. He was wrong - the first 3 guys to fly of the board were Norwood, Harbor and Ansah.

That left him with 4 picks to fill 4 needs, but no one who really stood out in the 4th round. So he & his braintrust decided that - given the circumstances and the round - selecting a talented LB recovering from a serious knee injury was worth the risk at the time - the most likely downside being that he wouldn't be ready for a year, but the upside tremendous. So the Cards took the leap of faith, then used McFadden to trade up to land Skelton and completed their shopping list with the CB and TE picks - plus (I think we're all hoping) another CB (Jefferson) as an UDFA.

Who knows what the Cardinal board looked like or what was going on inside their war room, but that's how I think it went down.
 

CaptTurbo

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 5, 2003
Posts
16,782
Reaction score
5
Location
Pennsylvania
Mitch I stated in another post Williams looks like a run stuffer that can get to the QB. I was told by k9 that the game has changed and players liek that do not exist or are not wanted on NFL teams lol
 

Monty

2010 Cardinals Draft Guru
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Posts
1,209
Reaction score
0
Mitch,

Im not surprised you're on the money again but i am surprised that once again we see the situation almost identically. Im starting to get worried about this so im booking myslef a full neurological and psychological examination at John Hopkins, to check that im not schizophrenic and even worse one with a persona named Mitch :D
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,138
Reaction score
8,044
Location
Scottsdale
Mitch I stated in another post Williams looks like a run stuffer that can get to the QB. I was told by k9 that the game has changed and players liek that do not exist or are not wanted on NFL teams lol


FWIW, up to this point in his career, Williams has never shown an ability to consistently get to the QB. Could be bad technique.. or, could be that he's simply a pure run stuffer and nothing more. We'll soon find out.
 

Monty

2010 Cardinals Draft Guru
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Posts
1,209
Reaction score
0
I think some people are over playing the NT role in a 3-4 in pass situations. In a 3-4 the nose tackle more often then not will get double team and sometimes even triple teamed. This will make it nigh on impossible for him to really generate any pressure on the QB. The primary role of the NT in pass rush situations is to eat up space and occupy as many blockers as possible. The best NT's are those that are causing so much havoc in the middle that more blockers turn their attention to stop the NT .This allows gaps in the O-line to open up which the DE's and Linebackers can exploit and shoot to get to the QB. To expect a lot more from the NT in pass situation is expecting way too much and extremely unrealistic.
 

CaptTurbo

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 5, 2003
Posts
16,782
Reaction score
5
Location
Pennsylvania
I think some people are over playing the NT role in a 3-4 in pass situations. In a 3-4 the nose tackle more often then not will get double team and sometimes even triple teamed. This will make it nigh on impossible for him to really generate any pressure on the QB. The primary role of the NT in pass rush situations is to eat up space and occupy as many blockers as possible. The best NT's are those that are causing so much havoc in the middle that more blockers turn their attention to stop the NT .This allows gaps in the O-line to open up which the DE's and Linebackers can exploit and shoot to get to the QB. To expect a lot more from the NT in pass situation is expecting way too much and extremely unrealistic.

The way the 3-4 NT eats up blockers on passing downs is by getting a few sacks when they only put 1 on them on 3rd and long.
 

john h

Registered User
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
10,552
Reaction score
13
Location
Little Rock
I am feeling especially good today about what the Cardinals did in New York the past three days.

I am so thrilled that the Cardinals actually worked the draft in ways we have never ever seen before. I equate this to blitzing Aaron Rodgers on 3rd and 7, rather than rushing three and playing soft zone. We all know how that one worked out!

In short, our Cardinals "got after it" big-time!

The upsides of these draftees...

1. Dan Williams, NT. Not only does he have the strength to command and anchor the middle of the defense, this kid has legitimate pass rush ability and is a fast, quick closer on the QB. Imagining the trio of Docket, Williams and Campbell teeing off up that middle every play is pure joy. And our backup trio of Iwebema, Watson and Branch ain't too shabby either.

2. Daryl Washington, WILB. The more I think about it, the more I realize how special this player is for what the Cardinals want in their WILB. They want their "best athlete" to play there...and what I've come to realize is, because the Cardinals do a good job up front of keeping their WILB free, what they want more than anything else is a fast rangy athlete who is proficient at getting to the ball as quickly as possible and equally proficient at angle tackling. These two things are what Washington does best and better than any LB in that draft. Once he settles in, because he is faster than Dansby and a little more explosive in finishing off angle tackles, I think his numbers will exceed Dansby's. Where Washington will have to improve the most is in coverage, where he has the speed and athleticism to match up one on one with RBs...but will need to develop the proper techniques and ball skills that Dansby absolutely excells at. Because Washington reacts so quickly to plays in front of him, I think he will already be better at blowing up screens and WR hitch passes and screens to his side, which was one of Dansby's biggest shortcomings. In essence, in Washington, we have the freak athlete at the position the Cardinals want.

3. Andre Roberts, WR. May have the best hands of any WR in the draft, and this is especially important now that passes may not be as consistently on the money each time when Warner was throwing them. Plus, we lost our best YAC WR, and this kid has tremendous YAC ability. In addition, it was clear the past two years that Steve Breaston lost a little of his passion for punt returns. What Roberts gives us is a legitimate home run threat as a punt returner...and, when needed, Breaston should feel extra happy and motivated to jump in there on occasional punt returns when the situation dictates it. In other words, this takes the pressure off Stevie, who is now our #2 WR!

4. O'Brien Schofield, OLB. To me this pick made the draft...I was totally bummed out we missed the opportunity to draft OLB Jerry Hughes and QB Mike Kafka. When the Eagles snatched Kafka right in front of us at #122, and it was clear the Cardinals were planning to select Kafka at #123...what transpired from that point on was magical. Immediately the Cardinals traded out of the #123 spot to add the extra pick which enabled them not only to draft Schofield, but then give them the extra felxibility to swing the trade with Pittsburgh that landed John Skelton. To me this was akin to getting burned deep for a TD and answering right back with a 12 play 80 yard TD drive. The thing is...Schofield, when he gets healthy, is a better fit for our defense than Hughesm because he's a better all-around player. I think Hughes would have just been a sitautional pass rusher for us, and I would have been fine with that, because he's so good at rushing the passer. But, Schofield is such a versatile athlete that he will be a three down player at OLB for the Cardinals...and we will have just as furious a pass rush with him coming off the edge.

5. John Skelton, QB. Was it just me or did you find it rather amazing and serendipitous that shortly after making the trade to select Skelton, ESPN shows a special on him, and Skelton could not have been more impressive in those bright lights under laboratory conditions. (Satruday Night Live joke: "What the leading cause of high blood pressure in laboratory mice? Exposure to laboratory tests!") As much as I was enamored with Mike Kafka's outstanding comeptitiveness and aggressive style, Skelton has far better size and skills. Skelton has protoypical size, superior arm strength and equal mobility. Then to learn that as much as the Cardinals liked Kafka, they covered their bases 10 days before the draft by sending Chris Miller and Mike Miller to NY to meet with Skelton and work him out. This is GREAT work on the Cardinals' part, and what's even greater work is what they did---in the aftermath of getting edged out for Kafka---and having no fifth round pick---they pulled a rabbit out of the hat to move up to get this kid. I have been saying ever since that day after the season there was no way the Cardinals were going to pay BMF $5M this season. They probably were just going to release him anyway. We got the best arm in the draft and we had to be extremely creative to get him, and we regained a cool $5M. Plus, I love that we just added the most accurate passer in the draft in Max Hall, who I think will eventually be a perfect #3 and possible #2 QB for the Cardinals for years to come. And he's from Mesa! When is his birthday, Brian?

6. Jorrick Calvin, CB. Talk about combing the grass for prospects. It's amazing to me how widespread the Cardinals scouting ranges. I think the Cardinals have become the best small school gold miners of the NFL. The reason why the Cardinals took this kid instead of Donovan Warren? He's faster and he can play press. It's that simple. Same reason why BMF is no longer a Cardinal---that and the $5M.

7. Jim Dray, TE. To think of what this guy has been through to get drafted is an amazing story. He shattered his knee and he was back playing eight months later. He even admitted that he had to just concentrate on blocking upon his return because his knee wasn't ready to run double moves. We are becoming a smashmouth offense and this guy is our next Anthony Becht. Dray's determination and character are remarkable. And that knee gets better and stronger every day. While I think he's probably going to spend a year on the PS, because of his determination and character, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he makes the team as the #3 TE.

I will leave you with this thought...the 49ers are a thing of the past. The Cardinals are the 10ers!

Your post makes me feel much better about our draft Mitch. You have taken the time to do your home work inside and out. I much appreciate it as I lack your football knowledge to make any knowledgeable post. The one thing that we all know is that a big question remains about Matt? The QB of course is the most important player on any team. None of us know if Matt is the real deal or not. We are just going to have to wait until he is tested under fire. We all were thrilled when we drafted him to say the least. Since he has arrived his abilities have come under question from many sources. Our coaches see him day in an day out and I do not hear any fiery talks from them about how good he is. I hear no good words about Matt from the TV crowd. Many say he is not going to make it. What are your thoughts on Matt? Will he be our QB the last half of this season? How he fell to us in the draft also brings some questions.
 

lobo

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
3,310
Reaction score
230
Location
Inverness, Il
I am feeling especially good today about what the Cardinals did in New York the past three days.


I will leave you with this thought...the 49ers are a thing of the past. The Cardinals are the 10ers!


At one time the team's idea of scouting was to go into the local 7/11 and buy every issue (only one each) of all the drafts mags and pass them around..(oh yeah, they would also ask they guy for a few of the mags behind the counter) that was it!! i ain't too far off in my thesis...then

suddenly they got smart and started "paying" for top notch scouting and hiring the right guys...one of whom we are going to lose i might add within the next year. That's how we got so smart so fast!! If WB was still on the bridge and knew about the other mags....they would all be fired!!
 

Monty

2010 Cardinals Draft Guru
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Posts
1,209
Reaction score
0
The way the 3-4 NT eats up blockers on passing downs is by getting a few sacks when they only put 1 on them on 3rd and long.

This is true but even then the middle is clogged up so it is very rare you'll see the O-line ignoring the NT rushing through the middle taking the most direct route to the QB. Expecting sacks from an NT is unrealistic. They may get one a year if they find themselves luck against a centrally exposted O-line. Vince Wilfork, considered the protypical modern NT, has been playing for over 7 seasons and i think only has like 6 sacks in his career so that should tell you a lot.

For me i want Dan Williams to attrack and occupy double teams and triple teams as much as he can. If he does that in pass rush situations believe me the QB will be on the floor more often not with the likes of Porter, Dockett, Campbell, Haggans, Davis etc having gaps to shoot and destory the QB. If that happens regularly Williams and he does what he does so well against the run, he will be a star in his spot.
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,062
Reaction score
3,329
FWIW, up to this point in his career, Williams has never shown an ability to consistently get to the QB. Could be bad technique.. or, could be that he's simply a pure run stuffer and nothing more. We'll soon find out.

One of the reasons Williams slid to us is his lack of pass rush so 4 -3 teams took a pass. From what I've read is that he will get a push which will take away the QB's ability to step up in the pocket. That gives Porter etc an advantage off the edge, they won't have to work back towards the LOS as much. I can see Williams getting some "clean up" sacks as Haggans etc. make the QB move up into the pocket where Williams will have set up camp.
 

lobo

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
3,310
Reaction score
230
Location
Inverness, Il
Your post makes me feel much better about our draft Mitch.

FWIW

I believe the talent is pretty much there (maybe the best DB vet available would be a big plus tho'). My concern is that the D staff puts together creative schemes that take advantage of the talent we have accumulated.
LB which was a marked weakness at the end of last year is now looking very fine...again mentioned a number of times getting Brown back and a healthy Davis is like having two top of the class guys around too!!
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,062
Reaction score
3,329
For me i want Dan Williams to attrack and occupy double teams and triple teams as much as he can. If he does that in pass rush situations believe me the QB will be on the floor more often not with the likes of Porter, Dockett, Campbell, Haggans, Davis etc having gaps to shoot and destory the QB. If that happens regularly Williams and he does what he does so well against the run, he will be a star in his spot.

This may be nit picking but the amount of triple teams Williams we see on pass protection will be minimal to none. If teams protection packages have CC and DD singled up by the OT's and a TE or RB on Porter then many QB's will die this year.

Whoever Williams is lined up over (typically OC) will engage DW with either the R or L OG taking an initial shot at DW to halt his push. Then that OG will either need to stay engaged with DW or look to help with DD/CC or a blitz up the middle. Of course pass protection schemes will be varied so the this is one example.

Now if DW does command constant double teams then I for one can't wait for the season to begin. I expect our blitzes will take less players needing to come at the QB with better and quicker results.
 

Doug

B a n n ed WARRIOR
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Posts
1,589
Reaction score
1
Location
Lynn Haven Florida(Panama City)1 mile away.
Many outsiders will say our top 2 draftee's were and are "One Year Wonders".Williams finally got NFL coaching by Monty Kiffen and Chester McGloughton before and during his senior season as he changed his whole lifes workout & eating mode.

Dary'l Washington had started in two games his junior year.TCU goes undefeated and puts it altogether Washingtons Senior season as he was the defensive leader on a super fast quick hitting defense that "DID" play some very talented teams outside and inside their conference.

I think at this time Daryl's body type is gonna be very hard to hold the extra weight many on this board are projecting Coach Lott putting on him before the season starts.He is built for speed and coverage right now as Urhlacher was coming out of college.It may take a year or so before we have the possible Pro Bowler I personally think we got in this kid who can do the things our defense will be built around.He may appear too weak at first but with a lil' time will fill the shoes dansby never could fill.

I think we found someone to cover tightends if needed even.Williams won't just dominate out of the gate also.I know coach Lott will pick up where Monty Kiffin left off and make Dan Williams as close to Casey Hampton as anyones ever seen.Hopefully better.Also I hope Gabe Watson gets the push he needs to be the rotational backup too.

Unless we pick up some miracle june 1st cuts at ILB & CB,I think we are another year away from a possible shot at it All.Thats why we play the game.Schofield and Cody Brown get to come into their own and we sign DD & CC to longterm deals as we find out what and who we have at quarterback to take this powerfull and deep team all the way.

Coach Whiz will continue to run his 4 WR sets along with possibilities at a better running game as Beanie comes into his own and begins to dominate.Breaston will be resigned as our #2 wr and we now have a very speedy slot reciever to stretch the field and also return kicks,allowing Doucet to have more wide open catches.

Its a major project that could have gone 100 other different ways but it went the way it did,and sets THE ARIZONA CARDINALS up to be a yearly threat teams will know leaguewide.Built with true depth.It may not be pretty in the very begining but the cowpies were'nt pretty as they set up a three Championship team either.It won't start that bad though.

Its a lot to expect from a team that just lost as many starters as we just did and Warner to go with it.Coach Whiz just reloads and keeps this Freight train running.
 
Last edited:

Monty

2010 Cardinals Draft Guru
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Posts
1,209
Reaction score
0
This may be nit picking but the amount of triple teams Williams we see on pass protection will be minimal to none.

I know i was just throwing out the point that he needs to make sure he gets more then one blocker on him.
 

spanky1

Registered User
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Posts
4,713
Reaction score
0
Location
Charlotte NC
Mitch,

One of the reasons I don't post much anymore is that you are always one step ahead of me, in your thinking. This is a brilliant synopsis. I would be happy if Schofield waits until next year to "strut" his stuff. We are going to love him.

Clearly this is probably Haggan's last year and maybe we end up "renting" Porter for the next two years.....but look at the OLB talent we are accumulating to develop, recognizing that it takes a few years for most mid round picks to germinate.

Steve Kiem (sp?) will certainly be gone soon.....he can't be hidden for long, especially if we field another improved team as we have been doing.

Spanky
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Your post makes me feel much better about our draft Mitch. You have taken the time to do your home work inside and out. I much appreciate it as I lack your football knowledge to make any knowledgeable post. The one thing that we all know is that a big question remains about Matt? The QB of course is the most important player on any team. None of us know if Matt is the real deal or not. We are just going to have to wait until he is tested under fire. We all were thrilled when we drafted him to say the least. Since he has arrived his abilities have come under question from many sources. Our coaches see him day in an day out and I do not hear any fiery talks from them about how good he is. I hear no good words about Matt from the TV crowd. Many say he is not going to make it. What are your thoughts on Matt? Will he be our QB the last half of this season? How he fell to us in the draft also brings some questions.

Yours is the biggest question of training camp this year, John. We have heard a good deal of coach speak about how this is Matt's turn and he deserves it and how he is "The Man." And if he truly is and plays like it, then we might have a chance at the playoffs this year. But, this could well be Matt's last year regardless. Just I predicted from the first day after the season that the Cardinals would not pay Bryant McFadden $5M this season, there is no way the Cardinals are going to pay Matt Leinart $14M in the last year of his deal...especially when they only paid Warner $11M following a Super Bowl run...and were reluctant to do so.

Thus, the Cardinals will either try to get Matt to agree to a reasonable deal, one filled with incentives...or...they will release him, a la Antrel Rolle.

They won't be able to trade him, for noone is going to pick up Matt's contract and thus teams will wait for his release.

What I have been predicting is that regardless of what happens this year, unless he receives a lucrative contract with a tidy sum of guaranteed money, Matt will want to play elsewhere next year. The reason? I do not believe he trusts Whiz...and thus far he has all kinds of reasons not to, despite the current euphemistic coach speak.

Whiz yanked him for Warner after one lousy pre-season game. While we can see the reason for it better than Matt can, Matt, as a competitor is most likely still smarting over that one. A competitor believes that he would have done just as well---in his own way.

Then the next year Whiz staged a #2 QB competition between Matt and Brian St. Pierre. Say what you will, but that had to be a tad embarrassing for an already demoralized ex-starter.

Then, in the midst of all the Matt is The Man talk the Cardinals have done the following:

1. Talked with the Eagles about Donovan McNabb.
2. Tried to swing a trade for Charlie Whitehurst that would have cost them at least a 3rd rounder...which you don't offer for a backup QB.
3. Signed Derek Anderson instead to a contract loaded with incentives.
4. Talked with the Steelers about Ben Roethlisberger.

The fact is Matt is not The Man and will not be perceived as The Man until he plays at a level that reaches or exceeds the coaches', the players', the media's and the fans' expectations...and until his contract situation is settled.

The irony is he could do all of that this year and still say ta-ta.

The situation is tough on everyone. It's tough on Matt. It's tough on Whiz. It's tough on the players.

It will be hard enough as it is to follow in Warner's footsteps and...if Matt falters, the national perception will be that the Cardinals were a two year wonder because of Warner. And that will be a stigma that Coach Whiz and the players will have to try to erase in the years to come.

To be honest, I really thought the Cardinals would have made a more concerted and aggressive move to settle the QB situation now rather than later. If they were so convinced that Matt is The Man why haven't they tried to open negotiations on a new contract with him? Like you said, John, they don't know what they have in Matt. At this point it really is anyone's guess.
 

Mulli

...
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Posts
52,529
Reaction score
4,601
Location
Generational
I trust coachspeak more than I do sports radio rumors about the Cards inquiring about McNabb and Rothlisberger. They needed a backup, in Anderson, whether Leinart was the Man or not.

They didn't offer a third for Whitehurst. They didn't trade for him because they couldn't get him for less than a third.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,271
Reaction score
6,203
Location
Dallas, TX
Mitch, great points abouts Leinart's future with the team. I really believe matt will have to play close to Pro Bowl level to return because he probably isn't going to give back $$$ that is due to him. Thats reality!!!
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,062
Reaction score
3,329
I trust coachspeak more than I do sports radio rumors about the Cards inquiring about McNabb and Rothlisberger. They needed a backup, in Anderson, whether Leinart was the Man or not.

They didn't offer a third for Whitehurst. They didn't trade for him because they couldn't get him for less than a third.

This.

If the Cards gave Karlos (IIRC) 7 and then 9 mil in consecutive years then taking a hit for $14 is not out of the question. If Matt plays very well to outstanding the Cards have shown they will pay the dough.

I do agree the situation is a bit dicey. Is this the last year of bowties stupid escalator contracts?
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,775
Location
Gilbert, AZ
The way the 3-4 NT eats up blockers on passing downs is by getting a few sacks when they only put 1 on them on 3rd and long.

Not quite. The 3-4 NT eats up blockers in passing situations if he shows that he can push the pocket back 3 or 4 yards, thus causing the Quarterback to slide to the left or right, or preventing the QB altogether from stepping into his pass--which leads to fluttering balls and INTs.

With Joey Porter, Calais Campbell, and Darnell Dockett around him, the chances of Dan Williams getting even a handful of sacks any season are going to be vanishingly slim.
 

binkar

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Posts
2,672
Reaction score
52
Then, in the midst of all the Matt is The Man talk the Cardinals have done the following:

1. Talked with the Eagles about Donovan McNabb.
2. Tried to swing a trade for Charlie Whitehurst that would have cost them at least a 3rd rounder...which you don't offer for a backup QB.
3. Signed Derek Anderson instead to a contract loaded with incentives.
4. Talked with the Steelers about Ben Roethlisberger.

1. Urban has said over, and over, and over again that the Cardinals had ZERO interest in McNabb.

2. So when the Chargers drafted Whitehurst in the third round they didn't feel Rivers was "the man"?

3. Anderson's deal is extremely backloaded. An incentive laden deal tells me nothing about their faith in Leinart.

4. Ben is in a completely different league then any of the other QB's mentioned. Putting out feelers is something that is routine.

I am not saying the Cards think he is "the man". Simply that some of these statements are inaccurate, or drawing dramatic conclusions.
 

perivolaki

perivolaki
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Posts
943
Reaction score
95
Location
Surprise
6. Jorrick Calvin, CB. Talk about combing the grass for prospects. It's amazing to me how widespread the Cardinals scouting ranges. I think the Cardinals have become the best small school gold miners of the NFL. The reason why the Cardinals took this kid instead of Donovan Warren? He's faster and he can play press. It's that simple. Same reason why BMF is no longer a Cardinal---that and the $5M.

It's networking that helped with this kid.

I heard that one of the Troy coaches was doing some type of an intership or clinic or working with the Cardinals coaches and he gave them a heads up on Calvin.

I heard it on the radio but I can't remember who said it.

You never know where you'll find out about a prospective draft pick.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
553,586
Posts
5,408,546
Members
6,319
Latest member
route66
Top