RG/RT vs 2 Gap DT (biggest holes on team?)

[vikesfan]

What is the biggest position concern for you on this team.

Am I the only one here who thinks the biggest area of concern on this team is the O Line? RG and RT don't seem solid. I think they seriously need to be upgraded.

I will give CBs a pass Macklin and a healthy Starks are okay. WR will be added onto but Q is there and he is excellent.

Now I realize DT is a concern but the right side of the O line seems scary to me.

I will defer to you experts if the Cards went into the season with what they have now:

How good are the RG and RT vs the 2 gap DT they will plug in? (I know the 1 gap DT has sucked too so far but at least a 2 gapper will stop the run).

What do you guys think? Which is a bigger need?

Which can they affor to go with what they have: 2 gap DT or the RT RG they have.

I am really worried about the right side collapsing and completely messing up the passing game and Josh's development.

Or maybe its another position you feel needs more attention then 2 gap DT, RG, RT. If so what?

 

[joeshmo]

I dont think RG will be a problem at all. I fully beleive that Clement, roundtree, spikes, or Wells can plug into that spot with success. Clement cant handle speed in space but can man handle dlinemen so moving him to RG would do him wonders IMO. I also think Wells is the wild card, he has a ton of potential and is very underrated and the oline coach has already said he wants to try him at gaurd this year. So the only position I am slightly worried about is the RT spot.

But a 2 gap DT is the biggest need IMO. I will give Bryant the benifit of the doubt this year and see what a real dline coach can do with him before I pass judgement. But for the 2 gap DT we got nothing, and IMO Tanner is nothing. I just feel that a good 2 gap DT would make the whole defense better, more so then a RT would for the offense.

 

[Red Air Force]

I think RG and RT are a HUGE problem for us. Spikes and Roundtree are not starters. They might be ok for a game or two here or there, but should not be considered a full season solution. I do agree that Wells may step it up this year, but he is only a 2nd year guy and has not done anything to impress yet. Clement might do "ok" at RG, but if we go into this season with him as the starter, like you said, we would be taking a huge risk with McCown development.

If I had to choose which position to "get by with" for a season, I think DT would have the least overall impact on this year, and that between Bell and Tanner we can be at least servcicable at the position.

 

[Brevity]

Originally posted by joeshmo
But a 2 gap DT is the biggest need IMO. I will give Bryant the benifit of the doubt this year and see what a real dline coach can do with him before I pass judgement.

And if I may add another postion to the mix it would be CB, even more than the right side of our O-line.

 

[AzCards06]

If Gallery is available to us, he could be plugged right in at starting right tackle from the get go. AC could move to gaurd, and win a spot if he can.

If Gallery is gone, Tommy Harris would look good on our D-line. We could probably trade down a little for him if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[arthurracoon]

1. 2 gap DT - He would free up Bryant and give the linemen more space by collapsing the pocket.

2. CB - We need a CB

3. RG/RT - We need one of theese too.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by AzCards06
If Gallery is gone, Tommy Harris would look good on our D-line. We could probably trade down a little for him if the opportunity presents itself.

Isn't he only a 1 gap DT?

We already have a player like him in Bryant.

I'd rather have Wilfork.

 

[vikesfan]

LOL I started this thread to clear up my mind but joeshmo and cali card present 2 reasonable arguements and then come to the exact opposite conclusion.


As for Harris well you might take Harris if you feel Bryant is a bust. But it does not solve the 2 gap DT problem though. But if Harris gets doubled that means that they can't double Berry or vice versa hmmmm.

Was Bryant double teamed last year and how often. Does anyone remember?

 

[Ryanwb]

Jeff Blake was the biggest hole on the team....now he's gone

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Was Bryant double teamed last year and how often. Does anyone remember?

No one on the line was good enough to be double teamed last year.

I think we are all hoping that by:

1. getting a 2 gap DT
2. Better DLine coaching
3. Addition of Berry (who will be double teamed at least some of the time)

Bryant will be able to produce more as he will not be the focus.

 

[azdad1978]

We need a big 2 gap DT that has some talent. Sorry Russel and Tanner won't cut it in another team.

 

[Brevity]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
1. 2 gap DT - He would free up Bryant and give the linemen more space by collapsing the pocket.

2. CB - We need a CB

3. RG/RT - We need one of these too.

Right on the money, Arthur. Correct order of importance and everything. You get an "A".

 

[JeffGollin]

There are a number of vulnerable roster spots on our team, and to debate which position is more vulnerable than another is fruitless.

Personally, I think Clement in tandem with Roundtree or another RG like Spikes can, with a little bit of duct tape, do passably well and get the job done at least competently.

By comparison, I think we can get waxed by enemy runners zipping into the left B gap and by opposing tall wide receivers who can outleap Starks and Macklin on fade routes.

And I'm worried (although not yet hysterically) that the well will be dry when we need to come up with a big pass play and Boldin is doubled.

But who's to say? Things could change - no one's even gotten injured yet.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by Brevity
Right on the money, Arthur. Correct order of importance and everything. You get an "A".

WOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

 

[Brevity]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
to debate which position is more vulnerable than another is fruitless.

The story of my life is to fill it with fruitless pursuits.

 

[Skkorpion]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
No one on the line was good enough to be double teamed last year.

I think we are all hoping that by:

1. getting a 2 gap DT
2. Better DLine coaching
3. Addition of Berry (who will be double teamed at least some of the time)

Bryant will be able to produce more as he will not be the focus.

Arthur, you've got two good posts in this thread. Denny Greene and his oline coach from Chicago will turn this oline into a top ten line by mid-season.

Vikesfan, you know this. Where's your faith? Denny's weakness is on defense. We need, as Arthur listed:

1. a two-gap tackle first;
2. a starting corner second.

 

[CardShark]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Arthur, you've got two good posts in this thread. Denny Greene and his oline coach from Chicago will turn this oline into a top ten line by mid-season.

Vikesfan, you know this. Where's your faith? Denny's weakness is on defense. We need, as Arthur listed:

1. a two-gap tackle first;
2. a starting corner second.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by Brevity
The story of my life is to fill it with fruitless pursuits.

Welcome, Cardinal fan.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Arthur, you've got two good posts in this thread. Denny Greene and his oline coach from Chicago will turn this oline into a top ten line by mid-season.

Vikesfan, you know this. Where's your faith? Denny's weakness is on defense. We need, as Arthur listed:

1. a two-gap tackle first;
2. a starting corner second.

Thats a first!

The more I hear the less I believe Fitz will be there at #3.

Furthermore, I have been hearing how good Wiley is. Thus no Gallery.

Taylor is good, but Id rather have an impact DT than an impact S.

There is no stud CB in this years draft such as a Terrence Newman.


I would rather take Wilfork at #4 rather than #3 however.



BTW, how did Wilfork's pro day go. Was he impressive?

 

[joeshmo]

Originally posted by arthurracoon

Furthermore, I have been hearing how good Wiley is. Thus no Gallery.

Taylor is good, but Id rather have an impact DT than an impact S.

There is no stud CB in this years draft such as a Terrence Newman.

I would rather take Wilfork at #4 rather than #3 however.

BTW, how did Wilfork's pro day go. Was he impressive?

First who the heck is Wiley?

Agreed

Agreed

I think we can go down as far as 7 becuase the top 7 dont seem to be in the market for a 2 gap DT although one may take a 1 gap DT in Harris. But if we want Wilfork I say dont mess around and just take the guy we want.

Wilfork was 6-1 1/8, 323 pounds, benched 36 times, 4.50 short shuttle and a 7.62 in the three-cone drill.

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Arthur, you've got two good posts in this thread. Denny Greene and his oline coach from Chicago will turn this oline into a top ten line by mid-season.

Vikesfan, you know this. Where's your faith? Denny's weakness is on defense. We need, as Arthur listed:

1. a two-gap tackle first;
2. a starting corner second.

Uh, I know and I think DG knows you need talent. Coaching alone is not enough. DG had a lot of talented players in MIN. That is why he is so interested in the player personnel side always. That is why when he was looking for a HC job the last 2 years he always takes about player personnel matters.

DG's weakness was not really defense. It just that the offense was out of this world it made the defense appear worse then it was.
But he had #1 and #6 defense. He lead in T.O. ratio 2 times (and was top 7 in 7 seasons). He was top 10 3 times in rush defense (#1 once) and 3 times in pass defense.


When it came to drafting he drafted pretty much BPA - sometimes it was a a defender, sometimes an offensive guy - but I really think drafting this high he wants to get a Moss, Culpepper type difference maker. That is why I think he goes Fitz/M Williams or Taylor. The thing with Gallery is he pretty much solidifies the line for as long as DG will be here and he doesn't have to worry about it again.

It's too bad there is not a big time RB ala Tomlinson that he could grab or a big time DE like Suggs or a big time CB like Newman. I think Fitz and maybe M Williams are big timers. What about Taylor can he make enough plays as a S to make a big time difference in games?


As for Wilfork I thought he was the best 2 gap DT last year. I love the guy but can he be enough of a sacker to justify such a high pick? I mean you can get a big 2 gapper later in the draft. Run stuffers are easier to find then QB sackers. If he can pressure the passer then he might be special enough.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by vikesfan
LOL I started this thread to clear up my mind but joeshmo and cali card present 2 reasonable arguements and then come to the exact opposite conclusion.


As for Harris well you might take Harris if you feel Bryant is a bust. But it does not solve the 2 gap DT problem though. But if Harris gets doubled that means that they can't double Berry or vice versa hmmmm.

Was Bryant double teamed last year and how often. Does anyone remember?

The only lineman I remember ever getting double teamed was Dennis Johnson.

As for Wells, I don't think so. He looked AWFUL in the vikings game. Hes was justing getting schooled. If we go with him at RT for 2004, I think we're going to have a serious problem.

Clement at RT and Spikes at RG would be a better option. I think spikes played well most of last year. I watched the oline pretty closely.

DT is our biggest need. Russell Davis is a back up, and Bell is a marginal starter. But I'm still confident that Bryant can get it done. We need someone next to Bryant that is a legit NFL starting DT. With Berry, Bryant (Wilfolk, Harris, Sapoga) and Johnson, we would have a D line that could get some pressure on the QB.

With more talent at DT, we've got a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Defense wins championships. Looked at what happen when Peyton finally came up a against a good defensive team. 4 oskies and a big fat L.

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
The only lineman I remember ever getting double teamed was Dennis Johnson.

As for Wells, I don't think so. He looked AWFUL in the vikings game. Hes was justing getting schooled. If we go with him at RT for 2004, I think we're going to have a serious problem.

Clement at RT and Spikes at RG would be a better option. I think spikes played well most of last year. I watched the oline pretty closely.

DT is our biggest need. Russell Davis is a back up, and Bell is a marginal starter. But I'm still confident that Bryant can get it done. We need someone next to Bryant that is a legit NFL starting DT. With Berry, Bryant (Wilfolk, Harris, Sapoga) and Johnson, we would have a D line that could get some pressure on the QB.

With more talent at DT, we've got a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Defense wins championships. Looked at what happen when Peyton finally came up a against a good defensive team. 4 oskies and a big fat L.

So you put Johnson at LDE ahead of Pace. What do you think of Pace. Compare him to Johnson. The LDE has to be able to runstop. Can Johnson runstop? How big is he. Isn't Pace bigger. You think DG is going to put Johnson in ahead of Pace at LDE?


P.S. If the refs did their job properly IND might have won that game.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by joeshmo
First who the heck is Wiley?

Wilfork was 6-1 1/8, 323 pounds, benched 36 times, 4.50 short shuttle and a 7.62 in the three-cone drill.

Wiley is the OLine coach (I think). If thats his name, but I was reffering to the OL coach.

Wilfork's times: Are they good? I have no idea how those #'s compare to the past.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by vikesfan
So you put Johnson at LDE ahead of Pace. What do you think of Pace. Compare him to Johnson. The LDE has to be able to runstop. Can Johnson runstop? How big is he. Isn't Pace bigger. You think DG is going to put Johnson in ahead of Pace at LDE?


P.S. If the refs did their job properly IND might have won that game.

Yeah, I do. Pace wasn't ever even getting close to the QB last year. It was awful man. really, really bad. In contrast, guys like Johnson and sometimes King were at least closing on the QB as the play progressed.

I have serious, serious doubts about Pace. Maybe he'll develop or maybe he needs some better coaching, but in my opinion, at least at this point, Johnson is definitely the better DE.

As far as size, Johnson is big. Bigger than Pace I'm sure. Johnson was 5'6" and 135 pounds in the second grade I kid you not.

You might be able to make the case that Pace is better against the run than Johsnon, but probably only because Pace never overruns plays getting into the backfield!

I'm not sure what Denny will do. But according to what you and others who are knowledgeable about Green, he what attach much importance to the fact that Pace was a high draft pick.