Rich Bartel on Bickley and MJ great interview

[desertdawg]

don't quit your day job dawg.

Never would, I'm just glad we don't have to meet a talent level when it comes to posting up in here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Never would, I'm just glad we don't have to meet a talent level when it comes to posting up in here.

me too.

 

[Phrazbit]

I've NEVER seen this reported, and have heard the opposite.

As this long and drug induced conversation that followed pointed out, Warner started shredding defenses as soon as he was placed in the system.

IMO, the system does work. We have clearly seen it work, and work immediately when a competent player was placed in it. But between St Pierre, Max Hall, Derek Anderson, John Skelton, Kolb and Lindley its also become pretty clear that Whiz is among the worst QB evaluators in football. Unless he removes himself from this offseasons QB search (which no coach would do) then I expect more of the same results.

But I dont see how he keeps his job if the losing streak reaches 12 and with how bright Horton's star is getting. In the end Whiz's QB choices will get him fired, either this year or next. And when he gets his next HC job (and he will get one) if he inherits a good QB I expect his team to do well.

 

[desertdawg]

As this long and drug induced conversation that followed pointed out, Warner started shredding defenses as soon as he was placed in the system.

IMO, the system does work. We have clearly seen it work, and work immediately when a competent player was placed in it. But between St Pierre, Max Hall, Derek Anderson, John Skelton, Kolb and Lindley its also become pretty clear that Whiz is among the worst QB evaluators in football. Unless he removes himself from this offseasons QB search (which no coach would do) then I expect more of the same results.

But I dont see how he keeps his job if the losing streak reaches 12 and with how bright Horton's star is getting. In the end Whiz's QB choices will get him fired, either this year or next. And when he gets his next HC job (and he will get one) if he inherits a good QB I expect his team to do well.

Now I remeber why!!! That short term memory is a mutha, for a second there I was like "Why do I think that guy is manure." I blame my short lapse on myself.

 

[D-Dogg]

As this long and drug induced conversation that followed pointed out, Warner started shredding defenses as soon as he was placed in the system.

LOL on your first part...very long and induced.

Second though, Warner had the authority to audible out of the offense when he saw fit, from jump. He was more of a Peyton Manning on the field than a guy running a system offense. He has been on record saying the system isn't easy. He had the smarts and the authority to change at the LOS when he wanted. There aren't a lot of good QBs that can do that...coverage recognition and play knowledge at the snap of a finger is a rare talent.

The system does NOT work. A superstar, MVP level QB who can audible out of the system 50% of the time can MAKE the system work, but a system where only a guy like that thrives and everyone else who attempts it looks like warmed over ass is simply not a workable system, IMHO.

Can Warner run it? Hell yes. Can Warner run most systems? Hell yes! Peyton could run it too, I'd guess. Luck would struggle in it, but would do ok. Brady could run it. But I'm at a loss for others who could. If a "system" is effective, it is something that 80% of qbs or rbs or wrs or whatever the system is based on could run effectively. This is not that kind of system.

 

[WarnerHOF]

LOL on your first part...very long and induced.

Second though, Warner had the authority to audible out of the offense when he saw fit, from jump. He was more of a Peyton Manning on the field than a guy running a system offense. He has been on record saying the system isn't easy. He had the smarts and the authority to change at the LOS when he wanted. There aren't a lot of good QBs that can do that...coverage recognition and play knowledge at the snap of a finger is a rare talent.

The system does NOT work. A superstar, MVP level QB who can audible out of the system 50% of the time can MAKE the system work, but a system where only a guy like that thrives and everyone else who attempts it looks like warmed over ass is simply not a workable system, IMHO.

Can Warner run it? Hell yes. Can Warner run most systems? Hell yes! Peyton could run it too, I'd guess. Luck would struggle in it, but would do ok. Brady could run it. But I'm at a loss for others who could. If a "system" is effective, it is something that 80% of qbs or rbs or wrs or whatever the system is based on could run effectively. This is not that kind of system.

Any competent NFL QB will be able to read the defense and make necessary adjustments pre snap. It's not some kind of rare ability limited to the holiest of holiest. Russell Wilson can do it, Alex Smith can do it, even Kevin Kolb can do it. The problem with Kolb is that he is good at checking off to the right play, but bad at everything else so of course the system is going to look bad when he completely screws up the play after.

OF course, John Skelton can't read defenses pre snap, but he isn't even good enough to be a starter in the CFL. You'll probably have to go back to the 1930's to find a offense that can make him look good.

 

[Duckjake]

he got in a groove the first time he was put in the game against Baltimore.

15-20-258 2TDs 0int 12.9ypa and a 150 QB rating. As you say Eugene hit the ground running.

Leinart's first game with CKW: 14-28-102 1TD 2INt 3.64ypa 41.1 rating. Now those #'s sure look familiar.

 

[Duckjake]

LOL on your first part...very long and induced.

Second though, Warner had the authority to audible out of the offense when he saw fit, from jump. He was more of a Peyton Manning on the field than a guy running a system offense. He has been on record saying the system isn't easy. He had the smarts and the authority to change at the LOS when he wanted. There aren't a lot of good QBs that can do that...coverage recognition and play knowledge at the snap of a finger is a rare talent.

The system does NOT work. A superstar, MVP level QB who can audible out of the system 50% of the time can MAKE the system work, but a system where only a guy like that thrives and everyone else who attempts it looks like warmed over ass is simply not a workable system, IMHO.

Can Warner run it? Hell yes. Can Warner run most systems? Hell yes! Peyton could run it too, I'd guess. Luck would struggle in it, but would do ok. Brady could run it. But I'm at a loss for others who could. If a "system" is effective, it is something that 80% of qbs or rbs or wrs or whatever the system is based on could run effectively. This is not that kind of system.

Something that is not often mentioned is that at the start of the 2008 season Warner had already been working with Fitz and Boldin for three years plus the 2008 off season.

We haven't had that kind of continuity at either QB or WR since Warner retired. That has to be a major issue when your offensive system relies so heavily on timing.

 

[TJ]

When Bartel was cut at the end of TC, TJ, all 3 QBs were healthy. What does putting Bartel on the IR at that point do for anyone, especially when Bartel wanted to be released?

Please explain. i don't understand your reasoning.

My reasoning is simple (and explained thoroughly in my original post) - we needed an insurance policy in case one of the three QBs went down with an injury. Kolb has proven to be an injury liability in his tenure as a Cardinal (and was injured in the first quarter of the first preseason game).

So, it would have been imprudent to release Bartel before the end of preseason in case Kolb or someone else suffered a long-tern injury during preseason; despite his request. Bartel, of all people, should know that you're one play away from making a roster or going onto the field.

Bartel going on IR was a side note, but it shows why you need four QBs going into camp - it is entirely possible one will get injured. And given the uncertainty we've had at the position for three years, the more the merrier.

 

[TJ]

Some of the NFL rules are hard to understand. So they have IR can't come back. IR can come back after a stipulated period of time and IR released who can come back after 6 weeks? Are there any more?

No wonder teams have MBA's on their staff to keep track of things like that.

Back to Bartel. Has there ever been a player who was as night and day between pre season and the regular season? I'm not talking about a guy who looks good in pre season like the WR we seem to have every year but a guy who was phenomenal in pre season for several years and then stunk it up in regular play.

133-193-1,583 yards 8 TDs and 4int. That's almost a 70% completion rate and over 8 yards per attempt. Then in the regular season he couldn't hit the broad side of a Peterbilt.

He'd be like a WR who had 8 targets a game, caught all 8 passes for 187 yards and 3 TDs and then in regular season had 8 targets dropped 6 and fumbled after catching the other two.

Or a RB who has 20 carries for 187 yards and 2 TDs every preseason game and then has 8 carries for -4 yards and 2 fumbles in regular season.

Just a strange situation.

Not that I'm aware of. But Bartel is the consummate training camp championship!

 

[Duckjake]

My reasoning is simple (and explained thoroughly in my original post) - we needed an insurance policy in case one of the three QBs went down with an injury. Kolb has proven to be an injury liability in his (and was injured in the first quarter of the first preseason game).

So, it would have been imprudent to release Bartel before the end of preseason in case Kolb or someone else suffered a long-tern injury during preseason.

Bartel going on IR was a side note, but it shows why you need four QBs going into camp - it is entirely possible one will get injured. And given the uncertainty we've had at the position for three years, the more the merrier.

I can see that. Banking on Bartel being more familiar with the system than some other FA QB. Sucks for the player but it is in the best interest of the team.

One thing that I've been wondering about is that if Skelton is so horrible why haven't they released him and picked up a veteran FA QB? I know guys like Losman, Redman, Young, Feeley, and Garrard aren't any good either but they can't be as bad as Skelton and Lindley can they?

 

[Russ Smith]

I would add I distinctly recall Whiz saying several times early in his time here that one issue we had was Qb's NOT audibling when they should. Remember there was even some dispute as to if Leinart was allowed to call audibles or not and Whiz essentially implied he was, he just wasn't doing it enough.

I also distinctly recall Whiz talking about what a good job Kurt did of getting to the line and getting out of a bad play into a good one, which is an audible.

I also have heard one of the issues THIS season has been failure to audible out of bad plays.

So it's a little odd to hear Bartel suggest the offense doesn't require audibles. Maybe that's why he was 4th?

 

[DemsMyBoys]

I also distinctly recall Whiz talking about what a good job Kurt did of getting to the line and getting out of a bad play into a good one, which is an audible.

He did that a lot. From what could be heard over the TV I'm pretty sure one of his code words was "Booga".

 

[Russ Smith]

He did that a lot. From what could be heard over the TV I'm pretty sure one of his code words was "Booga".

That's because Brenda doesn't like it when Kurt yells "kill".

 

[DemsMyBoys]

That's because Brenda doesn't like it when Kurt yells "kill".

lol. Pretty sure, since she's a Marine, that could be her code word. Brenda's one strong woman.

 

[kerouac9]

lol. Pretty sure, since she's a Marine, that could be her code word. Brenda's one strong woman.

I hope it's not her "safe word".

 

[D-Dogg]

Any competent NFL QB will be able to read the defense and make necessary adjustments pre snap. It's not some kind of rare ability limited to the holiest of holiest. Russell Wilson can do it, Alex Smith can do it, even Kevin Kolb can do it. The problem with Kolb is that he is good at checking off to the right play, but bad at everything else so of course the system is going to look bad when he completely screws up the play after.

OF course, John Skelton can't read defenses pre snap, but he isn't even good enough to be a starter in the CFL. You'll probably have to go back to the 1930's to find a offense that can make him look good.

Not many can do it WELL, which is what sets the warners and mannings and bradys apart from the rest.

Alex Smith can NOT do it consistently well. Nor can Russell Wilson. Kolb? Ha.

Warner deviated from the offense on more plays than not, Manning runs with multiple plays to pick and choose from. That's not a "competent" quarterback skill.

 

[52brandon]

I've always liked Bartel. I had hoped he would be back when Skelton, and then Kolb, went down. He's a solid dude and I wish him the best going forward

 

[cardpa]

The problem with the SYSTEM is too many players have to read the defense and determine how to execute the play. If I recall correctly there was a post that stated the QB has reads to make and so do the WRs who have several different routes to run based on how they see the defense. Now if the QB is seeing one thing and the WR is seeing something different there is not going to be much continuity on offense since it would be hard to always be on the same page.