Richardson trade revisited

[nowagimp]

Probably, but Diaw needed to be a starter to be the most effective. He showed that the year Amare went down. However, he was never the same player coming off the bench. I just didn't see anyway the Suns would make him a starter in Phoenix. I guess the analogy comes to mind about pitchers in baseball. Some are starters and some are relievers. Diaw would have been a starter in baseball but an inconsistent reliever.

Or it could be that Diaw needed usable talent on the floor when he was out there to get the spacing to operate. With the suns bench woes over the last few years, that would be understandable. Seems like alot of guys "play better as starters on the suns". LB, Barnes, Hill, etc. I suspect is has to do with floor spacing and the lack of offensive options when the second unit is in.

 

[Covert Rain]

I didn't say it only takes into account scoring, but come on seriously, most of JRich's efficiency rating is obviously going to come from his scoring. Since Bell had much less of a focus on the offense, he's going to score less and have less assists and be less likely to win head to heads because of it. Your stat doesn't take into account whether a player has a big role on offense or if he's just there to defend and shoot 3s. Which is why it's kind of useless. By your logic, Bruce Bowen must be one of the worst players to ever play the game of basketball and be someone that opposing players always dominate.

I also noticed that it doesn't take into account how many minutes a player plays or how many minutes a player plays against an opposing player. Nevermind, it's way beyond useless.



First, tell me where you're getting this stat from.

That's why you have to look at more then just diffEf. Look at 82games.com. It has opponents per. Before the Raja trade the SG spot was our worst defensive position on the team at about 19.2 per (as discussed at length on other threads we gave up more points at that position then any other position pre trade). Post trade it is now down to 17.8 and now we defend from that position 2nd best on the team.

If you look at Raja's individual Opponent Per (per 48) he was allowing 19.2 with the Suns. JRich is allowing 16.1 with the Suns. Raja has improved his per to 16.0 since playing for Charlotte which means they are playing about equal defensively (ONLY counting Opponent PER because JRich is performing better at other defensive categories). There is no denying there is a direct correlation to the defense improving from that spot since the trade. Maybe it doesn't hold up. Maybe Raja just needed a change of scenery. It doesn't change the fact that Raja's defense sucked this year for the Suns. Oh by the way...his offense did too.

Now look at other factors:

Steals Per Game
JRich - .6
Raja - .1 before trade, with Bobcats .1

Block Per Game
JRich - .5
Raja - .1 before trade, with Bobcats .1

Points Per Game
JRich - 15.8 PPG
Raja - 9.6 PPG before trade, with Bobcats 8.9

FG%
JRich is shooting 44% from the field
Raja before trade 42%, with Bobcats 39%.

3PT %
JRich is shooting 53%
Raja before the trade 43%, with Bobcats 39%.

Rebounds per Game
JRich - 4.6 (defensive 4.0)
Raja - before trade 2.9, with Bobcats 3.4. (defensive 2.5, Bobcats 3.0)


Bottom line.... since the trade, JRich has outperformed Raja in just about every statistical category on both offense and defense. He is about equal in Opponent Per and outperforms him in other defensive categories. Oh and by the way, can create his own shot.

Honestly, there is no way to say the Phoenix Suns have not improved on both sides of the ball at the SG spot since trading Raja. Period.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right now it looks like a win-win trade with Charlotte. I'm happy if Diaw and Bell helps their team.

 

[SirStefan32]

I just don't understand how anybody can actually not like the trade. You get a star in exchange for 2 role players. Diaw is one of my favorite players and I am glad he is doing well, but the fact of the matter that he was terrible in the last couple of years and Bell is a shell of his former self. Even in his prime, Bell was never even in the same class as JRich- not even close.

I hope they do well in Charlotte or wherever they end up, but to argue that Bell is in any way, shape or form even in the same class as JRich is just ridiculous. It is no different than comparing Robert Horry to Amare Stoudemire, or Sam Cassell to D. Williams.

 

[Errntknght]

George,

J Rich is a lot older tan Bell

What in the world are you talking about? JRich is good bit younger that Raja - 4.3 years. Maybe he looks older to you but Raja was born Sept '76 and JRich Jan '81. He's even been around the NBA 1 year less than Bell.

 

[Bufalay]

Greg Oden is a lot older tan Shaq.

 

[Ninjafish]

That's why you have to look at more then just diffEf. Look at 82games.com. It has opponents per. Before the Raja trade the SG spot was our worst defensive position on the team at about 19.2 per (as discussed at length on other threads we gave up more points at that position then any other position pre trade). Post trade it is now down to 17.8 and now we defend from that position 2nd best on the team.

If you look at Raja's individual Opponent Per (per 48) he was allowing 19.2 with the Suns. JRich is allowing 16.1 with the Suns. Raja has improved his per to 16.0 since playing for Charlotte which means they are playing about equal defensively (ONLY counting Opponent PER because JRich is performing better at other defensive categories). There is no denying there is a direct correlation to the defense improving from that spot since the trade. Maybe it doesn't hold up. Maybe Raja just needed a change of scenery. It doesn't change the fact that Raja's defense sucked this year for the Suns. Oh by the way...his offense did too.

Now look at other factors:

Steals Per Game
JRich - .6
Raja - .1 before trade, with Bobcats .1

Block Per Game
JRich - .5
Raja - .1 before trade, with Bobcats .1

Points Per Game
JRich - 15.8 PPG
Raja - 9.6 PPG before trade, with Bobcats 8.9

FG%
JRich is shooting 44% from the field
Raja before trade 42%, with Bobcats 39%.

3PT %
JRich is shooting 53%
Raja before the trade 43%, with Bobcats 39%.

Rebounds per Game
JRich - 4.6 (defensive 4.0)
Raja - before trade 2.9, with Bobcats 3.4. (defensive 2.5, Bobcats 3.0)

Okay, to get a more accurate assessment of the trade, you should add up Bell and Diaw's stats and combine their percentages. Did you forget we lost Diaw too?

Much like head to heads, defensive per is a stat that tells us almost nothing. There are too many variables to consider. If we went through a stretch where the teams we played had better PFs, Cs, and PGs, than SGs, then the PER at that position would go down compared to our other positions but not necessarily because we did anything better defensively. (Likewise if we have an easier schedule since Raja left and we did, then individual PER would drop no matter what)

Look at our game against the Magic. Bogans is no Howard, Nelson, or Lewis and doesn't get as many shots off, but he still shot .667. He'll have less PER I'm guessing simply due to the offense not going through him as much. Nonetheless whoever was guarding him that night certainly did a horrible job. I don't know that it was JRich which is another reason the stat tells us almost nothing.

In our game against the Knicks, Quintin Richardson played a lot of minutes had 4 points off of 4 shots. Is that because JRich shut him down? Well no, I don't believe it was even defending him.

Don't just judge his defense on PER. Judge it based on what you see him do in the games. I've seen him make one bone headed move on defense that cost us an important game that Raja would never have done. What player has he played great defensively? I've said before that when we play the good teams we're still getting smoked at the SG spot. You didn't deny that. Now, perhaps that isn't JRich's fault. Hill and Barnes usually get the task of guarding the best scorer. I doubt that JRich will guard Kobe. I think I'd be scared to watch if that happened.

Oh and by the way, can create his own shot.

Supposedly he can, but I've seen no proof of that since he's been a Sun. Whenever he tries to create his own shot, he usually misses.

Honestly, there is no way to say the Phoenix Suns have not improved on both sides of the ball at the SG spot since trading Raja. Period.

It's really delusional to think we've improved defensively at any position.

 

[nowagimp]

I just don't understand how anybody can actually not like the trade. You get a star in exchange for 2 role players. Diaw is one of my favorite players and I am glad he is doing well, but the fact of the matter that he was terrible in the last couple of years and Bell is a shell of his former self. Even in his prime, Bell was never even in the same class as JRich- not even close.

I hope they do well in Charlotte or wherever they end up, but to argue that Bell is in any way, shape or form even in the same class as JRich is just ridiculous. It is no different than comparing Robert Horry to Amare Stoudemire, or Sam Cassell to D. Williams.

I have not missed Raja, but last night I missed Boris when the lowly pacers went 15/15 from in the painted area in the first half, ughhh! Shaq WILL miss games, maybe 10-12 more of them. And it looks like amare and lopez will be torched when he does now much more than before. I mean foster actually burned amare inside at least twice and "side show bob" looked pathetic once again, no boxing out and "stupid mans defense", running around like a decapitated chicken out there. I dont see any reason to play lopez right now if the suns want to make the playoffs. Problem is that putting in dudley means small ball and apparently porter cant coach small ball.

 

[Covert Rain]

Okay, to get a more accurate assessment of the trade, you should add up Bell and Diaw's stats and combine their percentages. Did you forget we lost Diaw too?.

No and despite how he is playing makes zero difference. You cannot assess the trade based on how the guy is playing for another team. Diaw never was giong to start here over Amare. Diaw has proven to be a horrible bench player. Diaw was never going to play like that coming off the bench.

So the yardstick of this trade is would I rather have an unproductive 2 gaurd and forward on this team or a productive 2 guard instead. It's a no brainer. Give me the productive 2 gaurd.

Much like head to heads, defensive per is a stat that tells us almost nothing. There are too many variables to consider. If we went through a stretch where the teams had we played had better PFs, Cs, and PGs, than SGs, then the PER at that position would go down compared to our other positions but not necessarily because we did anything better defensively. (Likewise if we have an easier schedule since Raja left and we did, then individual PER would drop no matter what)

Dude you are seriously reaching. Ofcourse there are variables. That's why there are averages. So despite the highs and lows, good teams and bad teams...it will even out. It's the law of averages. So stats do in fact tell us alot....just not in the short term. In Raja's case he had a big chunk of this season to evaluate him on. Raja's stats say he sucked and so did his play when watching him on the court for the Suns.

All the stuff right in front of your face and your still going to pretend like Raja is a big loss?? Wow....just wow.

Don't just judge his defense on PER. Judge it based on what you see him do in the games. I've seen him make one bone headed move on defense that cost us an important game that Raja would never have done.

Stop right there. You must not have been watching Raja late last season or this season. He was getting his ass handed to him on almost a nightly basis. He was getting burned, committing stupid fouls and on top of that could not hit a shot. So for every bonehead thing you have seen JRich do, I can say Raja made about 5 while playing with the Suns.

What player has he played great defensively? I've said before that when we play the good teams we're still getting smoked at the SG spot. You didn't deny that.

I am denying that. First off there is only a handful of truely great defenders in the entire league, let alone at the SG position. Second, you don't play those players on a nightly basis. So, you judge a player based on his overall play not just against the "elite". Raja got his ass handed to him by even mediocre players this season. If you would like I can show you a list of non-elite players that have lit Raja up this season and from last year if you wish. I have never maintained that JRich is an elite defender. I have only said that Raja's defense sucked this year with the Suns and that JRich is playing better for us at the SG position then Raja did. That's a fact.

Also, to suggest that JRich is not one of the best offensive guards in the league based on his 7 years in the league is laughable. I can gaurantee JRich has lit up many good guards over the last 7 seasons unless you can show me proof otherwise. This is the NBA. Any player that can average almost 18 PPG at this level has lit up both good and bad defenders alike.

Supposedly he can, but I've seen no proof of that since he's been a Sun. Whenever he tries to create his own shot, he usually misses.

We must be watching a different player because in the short time he has been here I have seen him create and make more shots then Raja did all season for this team.

It's really delusional to think we've improved defensively at any position.

What's delusional is to look at the numbers and say they don't mean anything and then to suggest that Raja is even on the same level as Jason Richardson. Specific to defense, we can say we have improved. How much is open to debate but it has improved at the SG position...so far.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I have not missed Raja, but last night I missed Boris when the lowly pacers went 15/15 from in the painted area in the first half, ughhh! Shaq WILL miss games, maybe 10-12 more of them. And it looks like amare and lopez will be torched when he does now much more than before. I mean foster actually burned amare inside at least twice and "side show bob" looked pathetic once again, no boxing out and "stupid mans defense", running around like a decapitated chicken out there. I dont see any reason to play lopez right now if the suns want to make the playoffs. Problem is that putting in dudley means small ball and apparently porter cant coach small ball.

This was my only criticism of the trade. I felt we had to make a move for another big man.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Charlotte considers this trade to be a Jason Richardson for Diaw trade. That's basically what it was.

After this year, we will know if it was Diaw who should have went or Amare.

 

[Suns_fan69]

After this year, we will know if it was Diaw who should have went or Amare.

Funnily enough this isn't nearly as blasphemous to say compared to a year ago. It's hard to say right now, Amare is such a good complement for Nash and Shaq that it probably was the right decision to keep him but in the long run Diaw may prove to be the better choice, especially considering what Amare could potentially fetch. Wallace and Richardson? Okafor and felton? It would definitely bridge the rebuilding years very well.

 

[Covert Rain]

Charlotte considers this trade to be a Jason Richardson for Diaw trade. That's basically what it was.

Agreed. If they got anything out of Raja it would be considered icing.

Funnily enough this isn't nearly as blasphemous to say compared to a year ago. It's hard to say right now, Amare is such a good complement for Nash and Shaq that it probably was the right decision to keep him but in the long run Diaw may prove to be the better choice, especially considering what Amare could potentially fetch. Wallace and Richardson? Okafor and felton? It would definitely bridge the rebuilding years very well.

If Diaw does it for the rest of the season then their might be some credibility to that argument. However, it wouldn't surprise me either if Diaw dissappears. If we had traded Amare though, I wonder what we could have gotten in return this season....realistically that is. The mere fact that people are discussing it says alot compared to last year.

 

[Ninjafish]

No and despite how he is playing makes zero difference. You cannot assess the trade based on how the guy is playing for another team. Diaw never was giong to start here over Amare. Diaw has proven to be a horrible bench player. Diaw was never going to play like that coming off the bench.

Did I say we add up how he's playing for Charlotte? Where are you getting this from? No, we add up how they played for us on the Suns.

I'll do that.

Steals Per Game
JRich - .7
Bell + Diaw - 1.1

Block Per Game
JRich - .4
Bell + Diaw - .5

Points Per Game
JRich - 15.8 PPG
Bell + Diaw - (9.6 + 8.3) 17.9

FG%
JRich - 44%
Bell + Diaw (7.1 of 14.4) 49%

3PT %
JRich - 50%
Bell + Diaw - (2.2 of 4.9) 45%

Okay JRich is winning here.

Rebounds per Game
JRich - 5.2
Bell + Diaw - 6.7

Assists
JRich - 2.1
Bell + Diaw - 3.4

These are all stats of Bell and Diaw this season. The trade doesn't look so great looking at it from that perspective, does it?

So the yardstick of this trade is would I rather have an unproductive 2 gaurd and forward on this team or a productive 2 guard instead. It's a no brainer. Give me the productive 2 gaurd.

Well it looks like our unproductive 2 guard and forward was more productive than our productive 2 guard.

Dude you are seriously reaching. Ofcourse there are variables. That's why there are averages. So despite the highs and lows, good teams and bad teams...it will even out. It's the law of averages. So stats do in fact tell us alot....just not in the short term. In Raja's case he had a big chunk of this season to evaluate him on. Raja's stats say he sucked and so did his play when watching him on the court for the Suns.

You see, my argument is that because of things like an easier schedule and playing teams with better PFs, PGs, and Cs, than SGs, the current average is off. Even at the end of the season, it won't mean a whole lot because JRich and Bell don't defend the same players. Bell always defended the best player on the other team. We're not going to do that with JRich unless we start to tank.

All the stuff right in front of your face and your still going to pretend like Raja is a big loss?? Wow....just wow.

After everything I've said about PER, you're still going to obsess over it? Tell me what good is a defensive PER stat comparison when the two players in question don't defend the same players?

Stop right there. You must not have been watching Raja late last season or this season. He was getting his ass handed to him on almost a nightly basis. He was getting burned, committing stupid fouls and on top of that could not hit a shot. So for every bonehead thing you have seen JRich do, I can say Raja made about 5 while playing with the Suns.

He was getting burned, that's true, but we're getting burned worse now. When's the last time a player not named Kobe dropped 50 on us from the SG spot? Name a time that Raja left a player that wide open in a crucial possession at the end of a game?

I am denying that. First off there is only a handful of truely great defenders in the entire league, let alone at the SG position. Second, you don't play those players on a nightly basis. So, you judge a player based on his overall play not just against the "elite". Raja got his ass handed to him by even mediocre players this season. If you would like I can show you a list of non-elite players that have lit Raja up this season and from last year if you wish.

If you can do it without using a useless stat such as head to heads, then go ahead. But do Diaw as well. Because we gave him up too.

Also, you say you're denying it but nowhere in here do you explain how when we play the good teams we're not getting smoked from the SG spot.

I have never maintained that JRich is an elite defender. I have only said that Raja's defense sucked this year with the Suns and that JRich is playing better for us at the SG position then Raja did. That's a fact.

Raja's defense this year did suck, I agree, but I still believe we're worse without it. I would loved to have had him on Roy. I couldn't see him scoring 50 on Bell.

Also, to suggest that JRich is not one of the best offensive guards in the league based on his 7 years in the league is laughable. I can gaurantee JRich has lit up many good guards over the last 7 seasons unless you can show me proof otherwise.

Raja has shut down a good many guards over the last several years too. That doesn't have much to do with today, though.

I'm not saying that he isn't one of the best offensive guards in the league, but we gave up two good players for him. The stats imply that the two of them combined were better offensively.

We must be watching a different player because in the short time he has been here I have seen him create and make more shots then Raja did all season for this team.

According to 82-games, JRich is assisted on 70% of his FGs, and he shoots a bad percentage from 2P. Maybe that's why I cringe whenever he goes for his own shot. The same could be said for Raja, yes, however Diaw on the other hand was assisted only 50% and he was money from 2.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Diaws don't win Championships.

 

[Covert Rain]

Did I say we add up how he's playing for Charlotte? Where are you getting this from? No, we add up how they played for us on the Suns.

These are all stats of Bell and Diaw this season. The trade doesn't look so great looking at it from that perspective, does it?.

That is the most ridiculous thing I think I have ever seen. Now your saying that you have to add 2 players stats to one player to equate a good trade??? Talk about useless. lol. Never mind the fact that your trying to equate a jump shooter to Diaw who plays around the bucket. Come on....really?

So the argument goes something like this.

Steals - two players together are barely average .4 better then JRich.
Blocks - two players put together barely average .1 better then JRich.
PPG - two players put together barely average 2.1 better then JRich.
3PT # - No comparison.

All of this with absolutely no evidence there absence has changed this teams productivity on the offensive end while improving them on the defensive? Really? This team doesn't miss any production they were giving us. The team stats prove that.

Even if I wanted to buy into your notion that all stats are useless in your world...your argument has 2 holes.

One you didn't factor in Dudley's numbers (which I admit won't do much) and didn't bother adding in the production from players that are now getting Diaw's minutes. A percentage of their production should also go into the overall stats. Unless you can add those 2 factors, you can't even get a good look at that from a comparison stand point. So you can't just simply add Diaw + Bell. It doesn't add up.

Second, the Suns are not missing Diaw's production, in case you noticed post trade this team is not struggling replacing any of Diaws stats. The Suns production in almost every area has stayed the same or gotten better post trade. Look at scoring for instance...it's up. So other players are more then filling the Diaw productivity (or lack thereof). So again, simply trying to add Diaw's + Dells PPG doesn't add up.

Show me one shred of evidence backing the notion that this team is missing Bell's defense, Bell's 3 point shooting, Diaws offense etc.... You can't.

After everything I've said about PER, you're still going to obsess over it? Tell me what good is a defensive PER stat comparison when the two players in question don't defend the same players?

They have defended and played against some of the same players. Have they not played some of the same teams? By the end of the season, they will have played many of the same players. Are you going to honestly sit here and say that with every player in the NBA their stats are useless because their counterparts have not played exactly the same players???

We better notify the world that Dwight Howard and Erick Dampier that they can't be compared because they have not played the same players. Therefore, looking at their stats is completely useless let alone their PER.

He was getting burned, that's true, but we're getting burned worse now. When's the last time a player not named Kobe dropped 50 on us from the SG spot? Name a time that Raja left a player that wide open in a crucial possession at the end of a game?

Show me the stats that back your claim that we are getting burned worse at the SG position?

Crucial point in the game??? Raja was getting burned several times the entire game. There is no such thing as a crucial possession if your getting torched the entire game. I would argue that if you did your job the entire game, there would be no crucial possession in the game.

Also, you say you're denying it but nowhere in here do you explain how when we play the good teams we're not getting smoked from the SG spot.

The great SG's smoke everyone. So what does that prove? Last time I checked only one team in the NBA has Bruce Bowen and he even gets burned sometimes. You should be more interested in the crappy players that have smoked Raja versus the crappy players that have smoked JRich. That is more telling. You really want to go there???? I have some long list on Raja dating back to last year.

Raja's defense this year did suck, I agree, but I still believe we're worse without it. I would loved to have had him on Roy. I couldn't see him scoring 50 on Bell.

As soon as I see evidence that is the case, I will agree with you. Because I could not only see Roy scoring 50 on Raja but Mayo dropped 33 points on him, Wade dropped 43, Cater dropped 28...I could go on and on dating all the way back to last year. Take a wild guess how many times opposing SG's dropped around 30 on Raja dating back to last year?

If you want to argue the overall team is worse defensively, I won't argue that. However, it's not because of the SG spot or trading away Raja. Look at the Opposing per by position. It spells out where we are giving up points and it's not at the SG spot.

Raja has shut down a good many guards over the last several years too. That doesn't have much to do with today, though.

Agreed. I loved Raja's defense. I have always been a huge Raja fan since the day he got here. At the end of last year, I started to see things I didn't like. I started to see guys go off on him then and he started to completely dissappear from games when we needed him most. I got so tired of hearing games were the analyst kept saying Raja needs to get it going. Then he came out thise year and stunk it up on both sides. The signs started last season.

I'm not saying that he isn't one of the best offensive guards in the league, but we gave up two good players for him.

No we didn't. We gave up an underperforming forward and a SG who wasn't defending or shooting well. You have to base this trade on "what have you done for me lately".

We did not trade 2 players who were in the middle of playing their best basketball for the Suns. And we did it for what many around the league argue is one of the best 2 guards in the NBA in JRich.

According to 82-games, JRich is assisted on 70% of his FGs, and he shoots a bad percentage from 2P. Maybe that's why I cringe whenever he goes for his own shot. The same could be said for Raja, yes, however Diaw on the other hand was assisted only 50% and he was money from 2.

I would not call 44% bad for a jump shooter. He is #18. JRich was not brought in here for his midrange game anyway. It's his 3 point shooting and moves to the bucket. He is #2 SG in the entire NBA in that regard.

Not to mention he brings some of what we were missing since the Marion trade. It's nice to seem some ally oops and athletic moves. Something Raja never had.

 

[SirStefan32]

This was my only criticism of the trade. I felt we had to make a move for another big man.

I agree. Suns are really thin up front. Lopez is terrible, and Lou and Dudley are just too small. It doesn't seem to be a major problem when Shaq is playing, as you can get away with a small PF for a few minutes when you have Shaq on the floor, but when Shaq is out, you can really see how weak the Suns are up front. I always felt Diaw was one of the most underrated defenders.

 

[Covert Rain]

I agree. Suns are really thin up front. Lopez is terrible, and Lou and Dudley are just too small. It doesn't seem to be a major problem when Shaq is playing, as you can get away with a small PF for a few minutes when you have Shaq on the floor, but when Shaq is out, you can really see how weak the Suns are up front. I always felt Diaw was one of the most underrated defenders.

You know what is more telling then that. Look at Amare's Opponent Per against other PF. It's 14.7. However, when you look at the overall PER by position, we are giving up over 18 at the PF.

That means that when Amare goes to the bench, the defense falls WAY OFF at the PF position. It was even that bad with Diaw. If that doesn't spell thin up front I don't know what does.

We need a legit back up PF and PG on this team more then we need Brian Lopez IMO. I would still be fore trading Barbosa and Lopez for either a legit big man or legit PG. I am not that concerned with our backup PG as much anymore seeing how we let Grant and Richardson handle the ball so much now. I would still like it addressed though. We just need someone who can handle the ball when using "Point Fowards".

 

[cly2tw]

So, let's do Robin for Boone with Nets. We'd be fine.

 

[Andrew]

I think we would go farther into the post-season with Richardson than with Bell and Diaw. Bell tried, he did but he has just declined and Diaw seemed to not even really care.

We got a scorer who can defend decently and a glue guy that could be our hustle guy along with Amundson for a streaky shooter/decent defender on the decline and a mental mistake/not wanting to be a backup.

 

[arwillan]

I think we would go farther into the post-season with Richardson than with Bell and Diaw. Bell tried, he did but he has just declined and Diaw seemed to not even really care.

We got a scorer who can defend decently and a glue guy that could be our hustle guy along with Amundson for a streaky shooter/decent defender on the decline and a mental mistake/not wanting to be a backup.

you're only mentioning the positive about richardson and the negative about bell/diaw.

Richardson is already having off-court legal issues. He likes to have the ball. His defense hasn't been very good since he's been here, and has a reputation as one of the worst defenders in the league. He did spend a lot of time under Nelson.

Bell was a huge part of all of the suns recent success. He is a streaky shooter, but so is every other good shooter in the league including Richardson.

Diaw played spectacular basketball before you jumped on the shaq-suns bandwagon when the suns were without amare. A lot of guys don't play backup well. if you're going to criticize diaw for it, criticize hill for it. he didn't want to be a backup and played poorly in the role as well. we knew before that he needed room to operate in the post and that he probably would have a tough time adjusting to not being the number one option in the post/front-court. His game is perfectly suited for running/small ball so it shouldn't really be a shock that he didn't like the system porter was trying to run. Everyone can say what they want about him being payed too much, but the suns front office payed him. he didn't sign his own pay checks.

 

[Andrew]

His defense has looked decent, plus he creates his own offense, it just seemed bell waited for the ball to come his way. I think Bell is a more streaky shooter than Richardson, from what I have seen from Richardson on th offensive end seems more than what Bell did most nights. Unknown to a lot of you, I did watch the Suns from time to time before Shaq got there and I know Diaw was much improved that season Amare was out, but no matter what, he would always be behind Amare, once he got back, it just seemed to me he didn't like that reduced roll. I have criticized Hill in the past, don't get that twisted. Plus, if it all comes down to Porter's system, it seems Richardson has meshed well and quicker than Bell or Diaw did.

you're only mentioning the positive about richardson and the negative about bell/diaw.

Richardson is already having off-court legal issues. He likes to have the ball. His defense hasn't been very good since he's been here, and has a reputation as one of the worst defenders in the league. He did spend a lot of time under Nelson.

Bell was a huge part of all of the suns recent success. He is a streaky shooter, but so is every other good shooter in the league including Richardson.

Diaw played spectacular basketball before you jumped on the shaq-suns bandwagon when the suns were without amare. A lot of guys don't play backup well. if you're going to criticize diaw for it, criticize hill for it. he didn't want to be a backup and played poorly in the role as well. we knew before that he needed room to operate in the post and that he probably would have a tough time adjusting to not being the number one option in the post/front-court. His game is perfectly suited for running/small ball so it shouldn't really be a shock that he didn't like the system porter was trying to run. Everyone can say what they want about him being payed too much, but the suns front office payed him. he didn't sign his own pay checks.

 

[Ninjafish]

That is the most ridiculous thing I think I have ever seen. Now your saying that you have to add 2 players stats to one player to equate a good trade??? Talk about useless. lol.

Oh yes, it's makes a LOT more sense to leave out Diaw completely and just pretend the trade was straight up JRich for Bell. What could I have been thinking trying to factor Diaw into the trade? Man, that's ridiculous.

Never mind the fact that your trying to equate a jump shooter to Diaw who plays around the bucket. Come on....really?

Let's see, yeah, we did lose a jump shooter and someone who plays around the bucket for a jump shooter. I'm not comparing their talents, just merely the production we got from both guys vs JRich. You did remember that we lost someone who played around the basket, correct?

All of this with absolutely no evidence there absence has changed this teams productivity on the offensive end while improving them on the defensive? Really? This team doesn't miss any production they were giving us. The team stats prove that.

It's strange then that so many people in this thread and other threads mentioned that we missed Diaw in our last game with Shaq out.

One you didn't factor in Dudley's numbers (which I admit won't do much)

I didn't factor in Singletary's numbers either.

and didn't bother adding in the production from players that are now getting Diaw's minutes. A percentage of their production should also go into the overall stats. Unless you can add those 2 factors, you can't even get a good look at that from a comparison stand point. So you can't just simply add Diaw + Bell. It doesn't add up.

This is a valid point but it's the best we can do unless you want to just ignore one of the players entirely. Bell+Diaw and JRich take up about the same number of shots on our team so their production can be compared.

It's not perfect by any means, but it definitely adds up a hell of a lot more than not factoring Diaw in at all. No one would have any issues with this trade if it was just JRich for Raja or JRich for Boris straight up.

Second, the Suns are not missing Diaw's production, in case you noticed post trade this team is not struggling replacing any of Diaws stats. The Suns piroduction in almost every area has stayed the same or gotten better post trade. Look at scoring for instance...it's up. So other players are more then filling the Diaw productivity (or lack thereof).

Now this is just dishonest. Every Suns fan who watches the games knows that we're playing at a faster tempo after the trade than we did before the trade.

We're scoring more post trade, however we're attempting more shots and our FG percentage has dropped. Our opponents are scoring more and their FG percentage has increased. The sad thing is that post trade has been the easiest stretch of the season schedule-wise for us.

Show me one shred of evidence backing the notion that this team is missing Bell's defense, Bell's 3 point shooting, Diaws offense etc.... You can't.

Bell's defense: See the Portland game where Roy scored 50 on us, see the wide open Mason buzzer beater, etc.. Diaw's offense: Watch our last game, look around on the board, it's obvious we miss him when Shaq is out. (Which is often)

They have defended and played against some of the same players. Have they not played some of the same teams? By the end of the season, they will have played many of the same players. Are you going to honestly sit here and say that with every player in the NBA their stats are useless because their counterparts have not played exactly the same players???

Nope, only their defensive PER stats. Due to the fact that once again it assumes that they're guarding players at a certain position that they may or may not be guarding. Either because they're not on the court or because they're guarding a different player.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that you see no flaws at all in looking at the opponents PER of someone who guards opponents that typically have great PER and someone who guards opponents that typically have average PER to determine who is the better defender...

My thoughts exactly.

As soon as I see evidence that is the case, I will agree with you. Because I could not only see Roy scoring 50 on Raja but Mayo dropped 33 points on him, Wade dropped 43, Cater dropped 28...I could go on and on dating all the way back to last year. Take a wild guess how many times opposing SG's dropped around 30 on Raja dating back to last year?

Alrighty, I'm going to take the first name on your list and check this out for myself. You say Mayo dropped 33 on him. Here's a play by play. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=281110021

Let's take a look at the fourth quarter. At the beginning of it, Mayo scored 5 straight baskets for 13 points. Guess what? Raja wasn't in the game at the time! When Raja went out, the Suns were ahead by 15 and when he came back in, they were only ahead by 4. And somehow you're blaming Raja for Mayo going off right here. This is stupid.

If you take out those 5 shots he took and made when Raja was out, then you can say Raja respectively held him to 7 of 18 for 20 points.

It doesn't end there though. If you take a closer look at the play by play, you'll see that OJ scored 3 points off of a Barnes foul, and 2 off of a Shaq foul. So there can only be 15 points that Raja was responsible for.

But I'm the idiot for suggesting that your stats are a waste of time, right? Again judge how a player defends by what you see them do in a game not by a stat sheet.

No we didn't. We gave up an underperforming forward and a SG who wasn't defending or shooting well. You have to base this trade on "what have you done for me lately".

We've already been over defense, but a SG shooting a career high 47% from 3P isn't shooting well? When JRich's 3P shot makes the inevitable fall from 50% to 47%, are you going to say he can't shoot? Diaw did about as well as could be expected for a role player being given about 24 minutes a game. He was also shooting a career high in FG for us this year. Overall their numbers were down this year compared to last but that may have been more due to less minutes and less possessions than anything else.

We did not trade 2 players who were in the middle of playing their best basketball for the Suns. And we did it for what many around the league argue is one of the best 2 guards in the NBA in JRich.

It's true that Bell and Diaw were not as effective for us as they once were. They didn't like playing slow. Much like Barbosa and Nash. Now that we're faster, it's extremely likely (like 95% chance) that they would be playing much better now. Much like Barbosa and Nash. Too bad Kerr couldn't wait to find out.

 

[Ninjafish]

Is there any debate more tedious than a stat debate?

 

[Covert Rain]

Oh yes, it's makes a LOT more sense to leave out Diaw completely and just pretend the trade was straight up JRich for Bell. What could I have been thinking trying to factor Diaw into the trade? Man, that's ridiculous.

The debate was do we miss Raja. You went in that direction to justify that the we miss him. Trying to factor in the other pieces without actually factoring in the other pieces like the impact of other Suns players since he left stepping it up...is what didn't work for you.

You did remember that we lost someone who played around the basket, correct?

Sure...I pointed it out. Although most would argue Diaw passes every time he is around the basket. Again, what is your point? The team has not missed a beat offensively and is scoring more. Nobody is saying Diaw was useless...only that Diaw underachived as a backup and was an expensive one at that. So, the trade works for everyone including Diaw. You can't judge this trade on Diaw's potential as a starter. You value this trade on how players were playing for you.

We traded 2 underachieving players for a legit starting 2 guard. It's a no brainer.

It's strange then that so many people in this thread and other threads mentioned that we missed Diaw in our last game with Shaq out.

Define alot? 1 or 2 people? I heard more people say we missed Shaq. I think we need another big man on this team. Stated that. Doesn't mean I would go back in time and nullify a trade for Diaw who was on overpriced bench player ON THIS TEAM.

This is a valid point but it's the best we can do unless you want to just ignore one of the players entirely. Bell+Diaw and JRich take up about the same number of shots on our team so their production can be compared.

It's not the best we can do. Looking at the PER both offensive and defensive, head to heads and looking at things like efg% combined paint a much better picture then trying to do some Addition by subtraction while leaving out important factors.

It's not perfect by any means, but it definitely adds up a hell of a lot more than not factoring Diaw in at all. No one would have any issues with this trade if it was just JRich for Raja or JRich for Boris straight up.

Nobody but you and couple others do have a problem with this trade as is. I see overwhelming support for this trade.

Now this is just dishonest. Every Suns fan who watches the games knows that we're playing at a faster tempo after the trade than we did before the trade.

Maybe you forgot that Raja's woes started last year when we were still running. Also, are you saying if we started running that all of the sudden Raja would start playing defense? Come on. Talk about dishonest.

Bell's defense: See the Portland game where Roy scored 50 on us, see the wide open Mason buzzer beater, etc.. Diaw's offense: Watch our last game, look around on the board, it's obvious we miss him when Shaq is out. (Which is often)

Your citing 2 examples out of about 20. There was no indication this year that Raja could play shutdown defense with the Suns. Your really reaching here. There are more examples of Raja getting burned the past 2 seasons and more examples of bad defense from him. In terms of Diaw, we have not relied on him for the past 2 seasons with Shaq out. Sure we could use another big man but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have traded him away.

Nope, only their defensive PER stats. Due to the fact that once again it assumes that they're guarding players at a certain position that they may or may not be guarding. Either because they're not on the court or because they're guarding a different player.

You can't be serious. I think your jumping to serious conclusions because most of the time a player is matched up with his counterpart. Ofcourse their are defensive switches but it's still a great indication of performance on the court...especially over the course of a season.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that you see no flaws at all in looking at the opponents PER of someone who guards opponents that typically have great PER and someone who guards opponents that typically have average PER to determine who is the better defender....

No. I am saying when you factor in multiple regular season stats, with Per with head to heads with efg%, Hollingers stats, you get a very good indicator of performance. It's much better indicator then what you were trying to do. There is a reason so many sites use these indicators. I see nobody using your method. I guess you know beter then all the sites that also use the same methods of indicating performance.

Alrighty, I'm going to take the first name on your list and check this out for myself. You say Mayo dropped 33 on him. Here's a play by play. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=281110021

Let's take a look at the fourth quarter. At the beginning of it, Mayo scored 5 straight baskets for 13 points. Guess what? Raja wasn't in the game at the time! When Raja went out, the Suns were ahead by 15 and when he came back in, they were only ahead by 4. And somehow you're blaming Raja for Mayo going off right here. This is stupid.

If you take out those 5 shots he took and made when Raja was out, then you can say Raja respectively held him to 7 of 18 for 20 points.

It doesn't end there though. If you take a closer look at the play by play, you'll see that OJ scored 3 points off of a Barnes foul, and 2 off of a Shaq foul. So there can only be 15 points that Raja was responsible for.

But I'm the idiot for suggesting that your stats are a waste of time, right? Again judge how a player defends by what you see them do in a game not by a stat sheet.

And I do look at both in game performance and stats. So I have to question your eyes. Raja and Diaw both looked horrible while playing with the Suns. I have been happy with JRich's performance. He is no Kobe or Wade. However, we knew that when we traded for him.

In terms of play by play...who said Raja covered him 100% of the time? Nobody does that. Oh and by the way...that goes for Mayo's performance against us earlier. He was matched up in that game against more then just JRich.

Also, after reviewing the play by play...it doesn't factor in when Raja got burned and someone else had to rotate causing a foul. It doesn't also factor in multiple instances where Raja didn't rotate out or play good help defense allowing someone else to score. Also, only 20 points attirubted to Raja....that's good defense??? That means if you could make that leap...which you can't, he still accounted for 60% of the bad defense on Mayo. Your really not helping your case here.

We've already been over defense, but a SG shooting a career high 47% from 3P isn't shooting well? When JRich's 3P shot makes the inevitable fall from 50% to 47%, are you going to say he can't shoot? Diaw did about as well as could be expected for a role player being given about 24 minutes a game. He was also shooting a career high in FG for us this year. Overall their numbers were down this year compared to last but that may have been more due to less minutes and less possessions than anything else.

Your going to use his career number as your defense of Raja? If that's the case I wonder when guys start giong down hill they just don't keep shooting their career averages. Funny how that works.

Raja couldn't play D here this year. Raja couldn't shoot while he was here this year. Guess what? He is even shooting worse since going to Bobcats from the 2 and the 3. Even the local media is commenting what a "slow start" Raja has gotten off to. Obviously, they didn't see the slow start here first.

It's true that Bell and Diaw were not as effective for us as they once were. They didn't like playing slow. Much like Barbosa and Nash. Now that we're faster, it's extremely likely (like 95% chance) that they would be playing much better now. Much like Barbosa and Nash. Too bad Kerr couldn't wait to find out.

Bell started this last year while still playing fast. Also, Bell playing crap defense had nothing to do with running. Diaw on the other hand has struggled every year after he started in Amare's place. Diaw was ALWAYS going to struggle as a backup. Kerr didn't need to wait. He like most of the fans had seen enough.

This was a great trade.

Is there any debate more tedious than a stat debate?

Yes...debating the value of a trade when the 2 players in question were not playing well for you. Even if Bell turns things around, Diaw keeps playing well and JRich continues to produce.......it's still a great trade. Only difference is, it becomes a great trade for the Bobcats as well.