Rockets Interested in Morris?

[Catlover]

I don't see how that is even a question. The Suns were not only one of the worst teams in the NBA when he took over but they were also old. They had little cap room and no young players to build around and had just put up the worst season since the franchise's birth. Everyone here thought it would be years before the team was competitive in any sense of the word.

I think the gains in talent on the court have been massive, and accomplished while making one of the younger teams in the league. We can harp about not having a superstar but how were we supposed to get one? They needed to build up a base of quality players to convince a star to come here and we certainly lacked the assets to trade for one when he took over.

McD took over an absolute dumpster fire. The fire is out, there is a lot of promise and a lot of talent on the roster. He certainly deserves more time... Horny I'm not as convinced about. When the team only has a losing record because they repeatedly blow leads late that isn't on the GM.

I agree with all of this. We also have 3 extra future first round picks and Bogdan in our pocket.

IMO Gortat was the most valuable asset on the 25 win team that Ryan and Jeff inherited and I'd rather have Bledsoe, Knight, Warren, Booker or Len over Marcin (or Goran if you think he was the most valuable). And the dropoff after Gortat and Goran was significant whereas today's team still has additional valuable players such as Chandler, Teletovic and Leuer on the roster.

Our future may not be as bright as we'd like but it's blindingly bright compared to the team McD inherited.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I think those were fair questions. Fans want to see results.

Plus we like to talk.

I get that... but the guy has been here for 2 years with 2 draft classes (the first one he was in the seat for a little more than a month!).

 

[devilalum]

You guys all seem pretty pleased with a team that's still about the 10th worst in the league.

I asked these questions because there has to be a point when you say, "This isn't good enough."

All these awesome moves have elevated the Suns from 5th worst to 10th worst.

Seems like the Suns ownershup feels the same way. After all the motto this year is playoffs or bust.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You guys all seem pretty pleased with a team that's still about the 10th worst in the league.

I asked these questions because there has to be a point when you say, "This isn't good enough."

All these awesome moves have elevated the Suns from 5th worst to 10th worst.

Seems like the Suns ownershup feels the same way. After all the motto this year is playoffs or bust.

It's not good enough. I can't imagine anyone would think otherwise.

 

[devilalum]

It's not good enough. I can't imagine anyone would think otherwise.

OK then, why not?

Hornecek didn't acquire two combo guards to man our backcourt?

 

[Catlover]

You guys all seem pretty pleased with a team that's still about the 10th worst in the league.

I asked these questions because there has to be a point when you say, "This isn't good enough."

All these awesome moves have elevated the Suns from 5th worst to 18th worst.

Seems like the Suns ownershup feels the same way. After all the motto this year is playoffs or bust.

I don't think we were 5th worst, I think we were easily the worst. Not the worst team, just the worst future. We had very little talent and very little youth. And I don't think we're 10th worst right now, more like 18th worst.

We still have a long ways to go but we had almost nothing to look forward to just 3 seasons ago. Now we have something to build on. I don't think anyone is truly thrilled with where we're at right now except in comparison to where we were and where we thought we'd be today. And thrilled with the possibilites of where we might be in the near future. JMO.

 

[82CardsGrad]

OK then, why not?

Hornecek didn't acquire two combo guards to man our backcourt?

Why not what? I'm agreeing with you dude...the team, as it stands right now, is NOT good enough. But it's unquestionably better than it was before McDonough.

 

[devilalum]

Why not what? I'm agreeing with you dude...the team, as it stands right now, is NOT good enough. But it's unquestionably better than it was before McDonough.

I just mean why isn't it good enough? IMO you have to look at all the variables. The Gm has acquired some nice talent but are the Suns now just trapped in mediocrity?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Why not what? I'm agreeing with you dude...the team, as it stands right now, is NOT good enough. But it's unquestionably better than it was before McDonough.

No one thinks we are good enough now, so we'll stop. You have to move from horrible, to mediocre, to good, to great. Anyone who thinks you can skip the mediocre step is delusional.

All it is going to take to move from the mediocre to good stage is one good trade or signing. It doesn't even have to be an excellent signing or trade.

Also, anyone who cannot see the future potential in this team is also delusional. The cap is managed well, there are extra picks in the kitty, there are some excellent young pieces on the roster in Bledsoe, Knight, Booker, Len, Warren. Even Leuer and Tele are a plus.

Look around at some of the other rosters in the league. Yikes.

I just wonder why some of you even bother to be a fan, you seem to hate it so much. Don't get me wrong. I am not telling you to go away or anything. YOu just seem so miserable. I feel sorry for you.

 

[Phrazbit]

You guys all seem pretty pleased with a team that's still about the 10th worst in the league.

I asked these questions because there has to be a point when you say, "This isn't good enough."

All these awesome moves have elevated the Suns from 5th worst to 10th worst.

Seems like the Suns ownershup feels the same way. After all the motto this year is playoffs or bust.

He started the job with virtually nothing to work with. In 2 1/2 years the team is SIGNIFICANTLY better, they're in better shape financially, they have brought in future picks, they are younger and they have a lot of guys with potential.

OK then, why not?

Hornecek didn't acquire two combo guards to man our backcourt?

The "combo guards" are not the problem.

This board is a record player stuck on loop. Hornacek IS the one who keeps playing Tucker during curtial stretches of the game despite that the guy has been absolutely horrendous this year.

Again, if the team is playing with leads regularly in the 2nd half of games but then blowing them late then it is NOT a question of the talent. That is on the game management, the playing calling, the substitutions. The Suns are not losing because they are outclassed.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I just mean why isn't it good enough? IMO you have to look at all the variables. The Gm has acquired some nice talent but are the Suns now just trapped in mediocrity?

The Suns were trapped in craptitude prior to McDonough. He's done a very effective job at getting the team in a better financial position, while bringing in solid talent thru the draft and free agency, while also making the team younger.
Not sure what you thought was possible, but - unless your a team in New York, Los Angeles or Chicago, you're not going to go from the bottom of the pile to the top overnight... It's a process. Heck, McDonough took a hard run at LMA - it's not his fault LMA wanted to be back home in Texas...
The remainder of this season and into the draft and offseason will be very telling as to whether or not McDonough can raise this team above a viable #7 or #8 playoff team, to a team that can actually contend for a conference championship... we'll see.

 

[82CardsGrad]

No one thinks we are good enough now, so we'll stop. You have to move from horrible, to mediocre, to good, to great. Anyone who thinks you can skip the mediocre step is delusional.

All it is going to take to move from the mediocre to good stage is one good trade or signing. It doesn't even have to be an excellent signing or trade.

Also, anyone who cannot see the future potential in this team is also delusional. The cap is managed well, there are extra picks in the kitty, there are some excellent young pieces on the roster in Bledsoe, Knight, Booker, Len, Warren. Even Leuer and Tele are a plus.

Look around at some of the other rosters in the league. Yikes.

I just wonder why some of you even bother to be a fan, you seem to hate it so much. Don't get me wrong. I am not telling you to go away or anything. YOu just seem so miserable. I feel sorry for you.

Are you directing that at me?? Because if you are, you need to read the last few posts with some glasses on buddy!

 

[Mainstreet]

I just mean why isn't it good enough? IMO you have to look at all the variables. The Gm has acquired some nice talent but are the Suns now just trapped in mediocrity?

IMO, the Suns have fallen short based upon their inability to stop opponents on defense. The other main issue is Markieff Morris.

 

[Mainstreet]

No one thinks we are good enough now, so we'll stop. You have to move from horrible, to mediocre, to good, to great. Anyone who thinks you can skip the mediocre step is delusional.

All it is going to take to move from the mediocre to good stage is one good trade or signing. It doesn't even have to be an excellent signing or trade.

Also, anyone who cannot see the future potential in this team is also delusional. The cap is managed well, there are extra picks in the kitty, there are some excellent young pieces on the roster in Bledsoe, Knight, Booker, Len, Warren. Even Leuer and Tele are a plus.

Look around at some of the other rosters in the league. Yikes.

I just wonder why some of you even bother to be a fan, you seem to hate it so much. Don't get me wrong. I am not telling you to go away or anything. YOu just seem so miserable. I feel sorry for you.

The Suns forum needs more posters not less. Why so negative?

 

[elindholm]

No one thinks we are good enough now, so we'll stop. You have to move from horrible, to mediocre, to good, to great. Anyone who thinks you can skip the mediocre step is delusional.

It happens fairly often. A 33-win team is bad; a 49-win team is good. That's +16. Rare, but certainly not unheard of.

The value of young talent depends on that talent's ceiling. The Wolves have young talent that can reasonably be expected to get much better. It's not clear with the Sixers, because they are so heavily invested in young bigs who are injured. The Suns' youth core begins with Bledsoe and Knight. Bledsoe is improved over last year, so that's good, but I suspect that Knight is what he is. And what he is isn't all that good, so that negates his "youth" advantage. Part of the reason he shoots so many 20-footers is that the defense is usually able to take away the rest of his arsenal, and that's a result of his poor handle and lack of size.

Len, Warren, and Booker all look like they have room for improvement. Probably none will ever be an All-Star, although you never know; but it's not too optimistic to project them as solid starters.

Calling Teletovic or Leuer part of the future is silly. Players of that caliber almost never stay in one place for long. You find the occasional exception, like Nick Collison in Oklahoma City, but you're almost always looking at a two- or three-year relationship with that level of player, at the most. Just pick a few players of that caliber around the league at random, and see how long they've stuck with their various teams.

Overall I'd say that McDonough has done a slightly better than average job. Warren and Booker appear to be above value for their draft positions. The jury is still out on Len. The Suns mishandled the three-PG situation last year, and it cost them some PR and the future Laker pick. Bledsoe will bail them out of that mess if he continues to improve. Investing long-term in the Morris twins was a mistake, but at least their contracts were modest, and one of them has already been shipped off -- good damage control there. The Chandler signing was excellent and the lower-level FAs have been hit and miss, which is what you'd expect.

Similarly, the Suns' intermediate-term future is probably average or maybe slightly above. They don't have anyone who is a top-20 player in the league, and it's tough to get good until you have at least one of those. Maybe Bledsoe will get there, or maybe it will be Booker in a few years. (SG is a weak position league-wide, so there's an opening there.)

 

[Phrazbit]

It happens fairly often. A 33-win team is bad; a 49-win team is good. That's +16. Rare, but certainly not unheard of.

Fair, but I'd be interested to see how many times had win totals in the 20s (like the Suns before McD took over) and how many were able to rebound into playoff contention quickly after. And another thing about that situation... typically when a team ends up winning 25 games its because they're out there playing "the future", like Philly is right now or Minnesota has been stuck doing for years. That Suns team had nothing. Its only "young" regular rotation player was Markieff.

I think a lot of people, so used to the Suns decades of success, don't realize how low the Suns got and just how hard it is to dig out of that hole. Philly, Sacramento, Minnesota, New York, Detroit... just off the top of my head those teams have been stuck, non contending, for years. Cleveland would still be there (despite getting several #1 picks) if not for LeBron feeling guilty. Even getting he huge stroke of luck and landing a generational player is no guarantor of success, poor Anthony Davis.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Are you directing that at me?? Because if you are, you need to read the last few posts with some glasses on buddy!

No, it was more of a general statement. Your post was just a jumping off point. I was actually agreeing with you.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It happens fairly often. A 33-win team is bad; a 49-win team is good. That's +16. Rare, but certainly not unheard of.

The value of young talent depends on that talent's ceiling. The Wolves have young talent that can reasonably be expected to get much better. It's not clear with the Sixers, because they are so heavily invested in young bigs who are injured. The Suns' youth core begins with Bledsoe and Knight. Bledsoe is improved over last year, so that's good, but I suspect that Knight is what he is. And what he is isn't all that good, so that negates his "youth" advantage. Part of the reason he shoots so many 20-footers is that the defense is usually able to take away the rest of his arsenal, and that's a result of his poor handle and lack of size.

Len, Warren, and Booker all look like they have room for improvement. Probably none will ever be an All-Star, although you never know; but it's not too optimistic to project them as solid starters.

Calling Teletovic or Leuer part of the future is silly. Players of that caliber almost never stay in one place for long. You find the occasional exception, like Nick Collison in Oklahoma City, but you're almost always looking at a two- or three-year relationship with that level of player, at the most. Just pick a few players of that caliber around the league at random, and see how long they've stuck with their various teams.

Overall I'd say that McDonough has done a slightly better than average job. Warren and Booker appear to be above value for their draft positions. The jury is still out on Len. The Suns mishandled the three-PG situation last year, and it cost them some PR and the future Laker pick. Bledsoe will bail them out of that mess if he continues to improve. Investing long-term in the Morris twins was a mistake, but at least their contracts were modest, and one of them has already been shipped off -- good damage control there. The Chandler signing was excellent and the lower-level FAs have been hit and miss, which is what you'd expect.

Similarly, the Suns' intermediate-term future is probably average or maybe slightly above. They don't have anyone who is a top-20 player in the league, and it's tough to get good until you have at least one of those. Maybe Bledsoe will get there, or maybe it will be Booker in a few years. (SG is a weak position league-wide, so there's an opening there.)

The Goran trade is looking like a genius move, although not intentional, and so did the Nash trade (although McD did not make it) that started it all off.

You could make the argument that Bledsoe is now a top 20 player (His PER is #18). He is close enough to the 20 mark that there would be lots argument both ways.

 

[sunsfan88]

It happens fairly often. A 33-win team is bad; a 49-win team is good. That's +16. Rare, but certainly not unheard of.

The value of young talent depends on that talent's ceiling. The Wolves have young talent that can reasonably be expected to get much better. It's not clear with the Sixers, because they are so heavily invested in young bigs who are injured. The Suns' youth core begins with Bledsoe and Knight. Bledsoe is improved over last year, so that's good, but I suspect that Knight is what he is. And what he is isn't all that good, so that negates his "youth" advantage. Part of the reason he shoots so many 20-footers is that the defense is usually able to take away the rest of his arsenal, and that's a result of his poor handle and lack of size.

Len, Warren, and Booker all look like they have room for improvement. Probably none will ever be an All-Star, although you never know; but it's not too optimistic to project them as solid starters.

Calling Teletovic or Leuer part of the future is silly. Players of that caliber almost never stay in one place for long. You find the occasional exception, like Nick Collison in Oklahoma City, but you're almost always looking at a two- or three-year relationship with that level of player, at the most. Just pick a few players of that caliber around the league at random, and see how long they've stuck with their various teams.

Overall I'd say that McDonough has done a slightly better than average job. Warren and Booker appear to be above value for their draft positions. The jury is still out on Len. The Suns mishandled the three-PG situation last year, and it cost them some PR and the future Laker pick. Bledsoe will bail them out of that mess if he continues to improve. Investing long-term in the Morris twins was a mistake, but at least their contracts were modest, and one of them has already been shipped off -- good damage control there. The Chandler signing was excellent and the lower-level FAs have been hit and miss, which is what you'd expect.

Similarly, the Suns' intermediate-term future is probably average or maybe slightly above. They don't have anyone who is a top-20 player in the league, and it's tough to get good until you have at least one of those. Maybe Bledsoe will get there, or maybe it will be Booker in a few years. (SG is a weak position league-wide, so there's an opening there.)

Very well said.

 

[devilalum]

McD's initial plan was to acquire assets and trade for an All Star. He said it several times. Thing is I haven't heard him say that in a while. All Stars don't get traded. Even second tier kind of guys like Bledsoe and Knight only get traded when they have warts. You hope they overcome their shortcomings and elevate their games but usually what you see is what you get.

It seems like the new approach is to try and get a star through free agency. They tried with LBJ (waste of time) and last summer with LMA and struck out both times.

Yeah, they're definitely better but if you asked today I don't think they have any specific plan for how they're gonna get to the next level.

They're definitely more fun to watch than the were a few years ago but they're light years away from being contenders. IMO LMA probably would have made them a playoff lock but nowhere near good enough to contend.

 

[82CardsGrad]

McD's initial plan was to acquire assets and trade for an All Star. He said it several times. Thing is I haven't heard him say that in a while. All Stars don't get traded. Even second tier kind of guys like Bledsoe and Knight only get traded when they have warts. You hope they overcome their shortcomings and elevate their games but usually what you see is what you get.

It seems like the new approach is to try and get a star through free agency. They tried with LBJ (waste of time) and last summer with LMA and struck out both times.

Yeah, they're definitely better but if you asked today I don't think they have any specific plan for how they're gonna get to the next level.

They're definitely more fun to watch than the were a few years ago but they're light years away from being contenders. IMO LMA probably would have made them a playoff lock but nowhere near good enough to contend.

I totally disagree... Maybe not NBA Championship level, but there is not doubt that one of the biggest, if not THE biggest holes on this team is a legit stud PF. Alongside Len/Chandler and with Bled & Knight and Warren/Leuer, I think this team would've absolutely been a serious contender in the western conference.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Both the forward spots need an upgrade. We also need a star and about any position.

 

[Catlover]

McD's initial plan was to acquire assets and trade for an All Star. He said it several times. Thing is I haven't heard him say that in a while. All Stars don't get traded. Even second tier kind of guys like Bledsoe and Knight only get traded when they have warts. You hope they overcome their shortcomings and elevate their games but usually what you see is what you get.

It seems like the new approach is to try and get a star through free agency. They tried with LBJ (waste of time) and last summer with LMA and struck out both times.

Yeah, they're definitely better but if you asked today I don't think they have any specific plan for how they're gonna get to the next level.

They're definitely more fun to watch than the were a few years ago but they're light years away from being contenders. IMO LMA probably would have made them a playoff lock but nowhere near good enough to contend.

Yes, he said something like that several times. But it was more along the lines of acquiring assets so that they'd be in a position to do something like that if and when the opportunity arose. And he also said several times that there was no controlling when that opportunity would come. And this process started just 2.5 years ago and the first step was to begin acquiring tradable assets. From Ryan's point of view I suspect we are still early in that process.

The opportunity might never come to trade for that star but there are other things you can do with those assets along the way and that's probably how our future will unfold. We'll play them and make modest gains over a period of time and hopefully become relevant at some point.

 

[devilalum]

I totally disagree... Maybe not NBA Championship level, but there is not doubt that one of the biggest, if not THE biggest holes on this team is a legit stud PF. Alongside Len/Chandler and with Bled & Knight and Warren/Leuer, I think this team would've absolutely been a serious contender in the western conference.

There's a 2,000 post thread buried somewhere debating this exact topic.
Would have been nice to find out.

 

[Phrazbit]

McD's initial plan was to acquire assets and trade for an All Star. He said it several times. Thing is I haven't heard him say that in a while. All Stars don't get traded. Even second tier kind of guys like Bledsoe and Knight only get traded when they have warts. You hope they overcome their shortcomings and elevate their games but usually what you see is what you get.

It seems like the new approach is to try and get a star through free agency. They tried with LBJ (waste of time) and last summer with LMA and struck out both times.

Yeah, they're definitely better but if you asked today I don't think they have any specific plan for how they're gonna get to the next level.

They're definitely more fun to watch than the were a few years ago but they're light years away from being contenders. IMO LMA probably would have made them a playoff lock but nowhere near good enough to contend.

So now you think his job should be in jeopardy him because in 2 1/2 years he hasn't taken us from the cellar to clearly on the way to contending? I just don't know how that can realistically be done outside of a monumental stroke of pure luck.