Rod Graves

[Russ Smith]

Thomas Jones and David Boston were the last #1 picks to get to camp on time (Shelton held out Boston's season). Incidentially, I think that the next season was when Graves came on board as a contract man.

As for #3, the Cards won a playoff game in 1998 and had a prolonged holdout with that pick, L.J. Shelton.

Graves isn't the worst GM in the NFL. Matt Millen is. But Graves is in the Bottom 5 by pretty much every metric. Especially the one that matters: Winning percentage.

IIRC Boston was like a day late. He was the classic old Cards situation we negotiated a contract with his sister as his agent, then the league rejected it because his sister wasn't an NFL licensed agent(she was a lawyer). So we did a new deal wound up not getting the terms we wanted(higher per year and for less years) and in the process he was a day late.

Shelton was late because of the classic didn't have enough cash to pay his signing bonus so we offered him way below market signing bonus while everyone argued it had nothing to do with tv money. Within days of the NFL paying out the tv money, the Cards raised their signing bonus offer and Shelton signed, still for well below market.

We've definitely come a long way from those days and Graves has been a part of that pushing the Bidwill family into the modern era.

 

[Darth Llama]

Like winning football games? The administrative stuff is fine, but you can't really crow about that when the Cards are perennially in the last quarter of the league in getting their picks into camp, and they have frequently paid free agents a ton of money only to let them leave a year later (Holt, M. Brown, K. Clancy, R. Thompson) and busted on draft picks that forces the Cards to spend more in free agency instead of locking up their core players or refreshing departed free agents from withing (B. Davis, D. Blackstock, Bra. Johnson, N. Leckey, A. Stepanovich, L. McCoy, T. Watkins).

None of this would matter if Rod Graves did what he said (like using the cap money we entered the offseason with to secure/upgrade the contracts of players on the roster like Dansby, Boldin, and Wilson) or won some damned football games. But Graves has gone through three head coaches and trails only Matt Millen in the number of "L"s posted during his tenure.

Of course you can't win an argument that Graves is one of the worst GMs in the NFL.

So now we're blaming Graves for not winning games?

The front office and the coaches draft the players they want, and bring in the free agents they want. Graves is in on those decisions, but not for his football knowledge. Rod Graves is not a coach, he's consulted on personnel moves for one reason, to see if we could afford the players we're targeting. Graves works the contracts, and keeps things under the cap, he does not pick who we're going to bring in or draft. Blaming Graves for free agent departures is also silly, there are many factors in a free agent departing.

For example, if Graves had somehow found the money to match the Jets on Calvin Pace, we would have half the fans screaming that he is an idiot for paying that much for a guy who had one good year. If Pace then got injured or underperformed, then the other half would turn on him by week 8. If he doesn't match, then he's a bad GM cause he let a player leave for another team. Leonard Davis is the same situation. Again, I'm not saying Graves has never made mistakes, he has made mistakes, quite a few of them. He's not a GREAT GM, no.. he's just not terrible either. People only want to see the negatives, they don't care about the good things that Graves has done. The fact that the players got injured, didn't play well, or weren't coached right is NOT Rod Graves fault. If anything, I give him more credit for getting players to sign/re-sign with a team that never wins. That takes talent IMO.

 

[40yearfan]

Like winning football games? The administrative stuff is fine, but you can't really crow about that when the Cards are perennially in the last quarter of the league in getting their picks into camp, and they have frequently paid free agents a ton of money only to let them leave a year later (Holt, M. Brown, K. Clancy, R. Thompson) and busted on draft picks that forces the Cards to spend more in free agency instead of locking up their core players or refreshing departed free agents from withing (B. Davis, D. Blackstock, Bra. Johnson, N. Leckey, A. Stepanovich, L. McCoy, T. Watkins).

None of this would matter if Rod Graves did what he said (like using the cap money we entered the offseason with to secure/upgrade the contracts of players on the roster like Dansby, Boldin, and Wilson) or won some damned football games. But Graves has gone through three head coaches and trails only Matt Millen in the number of "L"s posted during his tenure.

Of course you can't win an argument that Graves is one of the worst GMs in the NFL.

That's right and lets not look at what he inherited when he took over or how much actual influence he had on decisions prior to Mike B getting into the process and the lack of actual cash available until revenue from the new stadium started flowing in. Let's not let facts get in the way of a good bashing.

This organization has done a complete 180 degree turn in the last few years and a good deal of that can be credited to RG. He had the patience and determination to change a team still operating as it had 25 years ago into a team that now acts like a real NFL team. Who was responsible for getting bells and whistles into our contracts? You think that wasn't a real step forward.

RG might not be the best NFL manager, but he certainly isn't anywhere near the bottom. He has pushed, and pulled and tugged until he has gotten this franchise poised to really make some noise this year. Considering the constraints he was under until a relatively short period of time ago, that is amazing.

And don't give me this crap about winning games. This team has been so bad for so long that the morale didn't change even if the people in the system did. You will never win games if you don't make changes and give your team a chance to win. That has been done. Now it's up to the team to make it happen.

 

[Mulli]

So, if a franchise is up to date in their signing practices (whatever that means), no GM should ever be fired if his/her team fails to succeed on the field?

 

[Stout]

Oh, I understand people that are frustrated with Graves. I wouldn't call any of them non believers, not by a long shot. They are all good Cardinal fans that just want to win, and I understand that. Graves is NOT perfect, far from it. He's not the best GM in the league, he's probably not even in the top 10 (I haven't tried to rank them.) I don't think he's the greatest, I just don't think he's bad.

Either way, one thing will fix everything and that's winning. The fans that don't like Graves are entitled to that, and they have good reasons. I take it with a grain of salt, because I know that we'll all be celebrating together once we make the playoffs this year.

The best thing to change peoples minds is winning, that's the bottom line. I support Graves and Bidwill.. maybe I'm wrong, only time will tell I guess.

Very good post. I would disagree with you and 40 about how good RG is compared to the rest of the league--certainly still bottom 10, probably bottom 3--but things are getting better. My problem with RG has been and will continue to be that he takes a millenium to figure things out and to change them. Many mistakes he still makes could and should have been fixed as soon as they were identified, but he hasn't fixed them. Hopefully his slow pace of turnaround is fast enough to get this team into winning ways.

 

[Russ Smith]

So now we're blaming Graves for not winning games?

The front office and the coaches draft the players they want, and bring in the free agents they want. Graves is in on those decisions, but not for his football knowledge. Rod Graves is not a coach, he's consulted on personnel moves for one reason, to see if we could afford the players we're targeting. Graves works the contracts, and keeps things under the cap, he does not pick who we're going to bring in or draft. Blaming Graves for free agent departures is also silly, there are many factors in a free agent departing.

For example, if Graves had somehow found the money to match the Jets on Calvin Pace, we would have half the fans screaming that he is an idiot for paying that much for a guy who had one good year. If Pace then got injured or underperformed, then the other half would turn on him by week 8. If he doesn't match, then he's a bad GM cause he let a player leave for another team. Leonard Davis is the same situation. Again, I'm not saying Graves has never made mistakes, he has made mistakes, quite a few of them. He's not a GREAT GM, no.. he's just not terrible either. People only want to see the negatives, they don't care about the good things that Graves has done. The fact that the players got injured, didn't play well, or weren't coached right is NOT Rod Graves fault. If anything, I give him more credit for getting players to sign/re-sign with a team that never wins. That takes talent IMO.

now I'm confused.

Can you explain exactly what you think Rod Graves duties are with the Cardinals?

He's more than once told us himself that he's VERY involved in both the draft and FA, who we draft, who we retain of our own FA's, who we pursue in the open FA market.

You can't now say that Rod doesn't do any of that he's told us himself he does.

 

[DaisyCutter]

So now we're blaming Graves for not winning games?

What Russ said. Second:

http://www.azcardinals.com/team/staff_detail.php?PRKey=23

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Graves, 47, is responsible for all facets of the Cardinals’ football operations. He has provided leadership in hiring, planning, budgeting, player acquisitions, negotiations, and scouting.[/FONT]

It is literally his responsibility to make sure the Cards win football games. That's the only point of "football operations."

Jerry Angelo could eat babies for all Bears fans can care, as long as the Bears beat the Packers twice and make a Super Bowl every five years. Carl Peterson can let Jared Allen leave for $0.75 on the dollar, but if the Chiefs win the AFC West next year, all will be forgotten in Kansas city.
Bill Polian might get grief for letting guys like Cato June and Mike Peterson leave, but as long as the Colts are winning 11 games a season, he's a genius.

Rod Graves is ultimately responsible for all football operations. That 4-12 season? That's on Graves. So is last year's 8-8 record. The most important trend line is suddenly upward. But there's no mistaking that Graves failed in his own goals for this offseason, and that's a shame.

 

[TigToad]

I believe. I just do it quietly. The arguments make my head hurt.

If you read this board on a regular basis, you will realize that there are only about 3 of us believers.

 

[Darth Llama]

now I'm confused.

Can you explain exactly what you think Rod Graves duties are with the Cardinals?

He's more than once told us himself that he's VERY involved in both the draft and FA, who we draft, who we retain of our own FA's, who we pursue in the open FA market.

You can't now say that Rod doesn't do any of that he's told us himself he does.

I say right in my post that Rod Graves has a hand in all that. Do you think all those things are Graves decisions and Graves alone? That no one else is involved? I fully acknowledge that Rod Graves is part of that process, I even said that, I don't understand the confusion here.

Rod has made some mistakes, but he's also helped bring us guys like Fitz, Boldin, Wilson, Edge, Leinart, Warner, etc. The argument is that Graves is a Bad GM, and I just don't buy that. If he were a bad GM, we wouldn't have the team we have. The only reason this team wasn't 10-6 or better last year was injuries, which are beyond Graves control.

Again, I'm not saying Graves is the best, my argument is that he's simply not the worst. I still don't understand all the resistance when I think it's pretty obvious that he's just not THAT bad. Rod Graves does not handle all of that stuff single handedly. I was under the impression however, that he handled the greater majority of payroll and trying to make sure all the numbers added up and I think he's done a good job there. We have our talent all under contract for years to come, and that's good in my opinion.

Back in 1998, I watched this team build a talented core, get to the playoffs, then let it all fall apart. Last year, I watched them come as close to once again turning that corner as they have ever come, the difference is, a year later, we still have that core locked up and we're in a position to build off it. Yes, I give Graves some credit for that. What happened after 98 made me sick, and thanks to Rod Graves and the Cardinal front office, we're not in that position this time.

 

[Russ Smith]

I say right in my post that Rod Graves has a hand in all that. Do you think all those things are Graves decisions and Graves alone? That no one else is involved? I fully acknowledge that Rod Graves is part of that process, I even said that, I don't understand the confusion here.

Rod has made some mistakes, but he's also helped bring us guys like Fitz, Boldin, Wilson, Edge, Leinart, Warner, etc. The argument is that Graves is a Bad GM, and I just don't buy that. If he were a bad GM, we wouldn't have the team we have. The only reason this team wasn't 10-6 or better last year was injuries, which are beyond Graves control.

Again, I'm not saying Graves is the best, my argument is that he's simply not the worst. I still don't understand all the resistance when I think it's pretty obvious that he's just not THAT bad. Rod Graves does not handle all of that stuff single handedly. I was under the impression however, that he handled the greater majority of payroll and trying to make sure all the numbers added up and I think he's done a good job there. We have our talent all under contract for years to come, and that's good in my opinion.

Back in 1998, I watched this team build a talented core, get to the playoffs, then let it all fall apart. Last year, I watched them come as close to once again turning that corner as they have ever come, the difference is, a year later, we still have that core locked up and we're in a position to build off it. Yes, I give Graves some credit for that. What happened after 98 made me sick, and thanks to Rod Graves and the Cardinal front office, we're not in that position this time.

You said he's not involved in those decisions for his football knowledge, he told us otherwise he said he's involved in who we draft and who we pursue in free agency. Those are not strictly financial decisions, those are talent decisions too.

I agree 98 was a disaster gave Jake too much and then let others walk. We're in a much better position now.

In the end like daisycutter said Graves is ultimately judged by wins and losses that's just how the NFL works. Whisenhunt proved last year he can win more games with Green's personnel than Green could, I don't think he's the best coach in the NFL yet but he proved he can coach a bit. If things go south this year it won't just be because Whiz didn't do his job it'll be in part because we didn't have a great offseason.

Hopefully things don't go South.

I guess just once I'd like to see us sign a player early, be the team delaying other teams talking to Parker not the team waiting for Parker to be free.

To be clear I don't think he's the worst I think Millen is and I think you can argue Al Davis is worse too whoever the Raiders call their GM it's really Al Davis. I just think if you look at our record during Rod's time it's pretty hard to not agree he's in the bottom group of people that do his job in the NFL.

 

[Darth Llama]

You said he's not involved in those decisions for his football knowledge, he told us otherwise he said he's involved in who we draft and who we pursue in free agency. Those are not strictly financial decisions, those are talent decisions too.

I wrote that unclearly, and I apologize. I was responding to the notion that Graves is responsible for losing games. What I was trying to say is that while he's responsible for contracts and is in on personnel moves, he's not a coach and doesn't have anything to do with the decisions during the game. My point was, all Graves can do is bring in the people that the Cardinals feel gives them a chance to win, and get them signed. When the players under perform, get injured, or give up, I don't put that part on Graves. That too me would fall under the head coach. Graves helps get talent and gets them signed. From there, it's out of his hands and it's unfair to blame him for under performing players.

I hope that's more clear, I apologize for my confusing post, it wasn't very well articulated.

 

[john h]

he applied for it . You can always tell the value of a guy by the other teams interest in him. Hell, Graves didn't have a contact for about a year and still no other team approached him. I still say one of gravest days for the Cards was about 5-6 years ago when Atlanta showed a glimmer of interest in RG but didn't hire him. Now , he's not going anywhere. You can't blame him either because only in Cardinal land do you get PROMOTED for incompetency.

I do not know Rod Graves but I can read the results of the Cardinals under his tenure as GM. Based on that he should not be the GM. The NFL is about winning and about improving. Based on results we have not done much of either. Clearly he has a special relationship with the Bidwills and winning is not as important as that relationship.

Are we an 8-8 team this year? I have no idea what we are. We do not get much press and most writers never even mention our name when discussing playoff teams. How do teams like the Redskins go out and sign an all pro DL this past week? Have we ever done anything like that just before the season begins? Is Leinhart really going to be what we hoped for or is it going to be an aging Kurt Warner who carries this team as far as it can go this year. Based on results last year it will or should be Kurt Warner but we do not always run this team based on results. For a while last year or the year before we all thought the Cardinals had really changed their way of doing business. New stadium, new Manager and Coaches. Our hopes were high. We still had the same old GM and owners who may or may have not changed their old ways. Is winning a big priority with upper management or is it still making the most possible $$$ you can the overriding goal. Making money is important to most owners but to some they will be happy to break even and win. Jerry Jones will do what ever it takes to win and still makes a lot of money. Seems you need to win first and the money will follow. Still hoping we are better than I think this year but we are still the Cardinals.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I wrote that unclearly, and I apologize. I was responding to the notion that Graves is responsible for losing games. What I was trying to say is that while he's responsible for contracts and is in on personnel moves, he's not a coach and doesn't have anything to do with the decisions during the game. My point was, all Graves can do is bring in the people that the Cardinals feel gives them a chance to win, and get them signed. When the players under perform, get injured, or give up, I don't put that part on Graves. That too me would fall under the head coach. Graves helps get talent and gets them signed. From there, it's out of his hands and it's unfair to blame him for under performing players.

I hope that's more clear, I apologize for my confusing post, it wasn't very well articulated.

But according to you, it wasn't in-game decision that destroyed the Cards' 2007 season, it was injuries. Graves can't control injuries, but he has control over depth. There's no question that Graves' decision to accelerate bonuses for Leinart and Rolle and stupid contract structures for players like Al Johnson and stupid overall signing of a player like Terrance Holt severely hindered the Cards' ability to build a deep roster last offseason.

At whose doorstep that that land? Graves learned some from that mistake, and worked on depth, but his mistake in not anticipating Larry Fitzgerald meeting his incentives meant that the Cards missed out on more and/or better depth in the form of Brandon Chillar and Keydrick Vincent (to say nothing of Alan Faneca--but I never thought he was an option). Not only that, but it seems obvious at this point that Graves bet that we could get a back to share the load with Edgerrin James in the draft, and didn't pursure free agent running backs. We ended up with Tim Hightower, who will be fortunate to see 50 carries this season. Somehow, Marcel Shipp and his $1.75 million salary remains on the roster. At whose doorstep does that land?

I don't think that there are many here who think that Rod Graves is the worst GM in the NFL, but I'm not sure that you can name 5 GMs who still have jobs that are worse than him. Certainly only one GM has had worse results and kept his job.

 

[lobo]

Well camp officially starts today and surprise surprise our 1st round pick isnt inked....who'da guessed it??? When was the last time we had our 1st rounder in camp on day1...? What HAS Rod done for this club...???? We have the worst GM in football, what did this guy do to get this job?????

You are in the wrong business pal...put down your shovel and pail get out of the circus tents and advise the 20 or so other GM's how to get their guys into camp...we will all be a happy campers then!

 

[lobo]

Graves 910 interview Tuesday morning was great. DCR should be in camp fairly soon, just not for the start.

Thanks for the info....you can save many of our long winded brethern time and energy if they listen and read a bit. Boy some of this stuff gets so tired...I just scroll right through it

 

[BigRedArk]

Kent Somers
DRC update
In other news, Graves said the Cardinals don't have interest in signing running back Mike Bell, recently cut by the Broncos. Bell's agent called the Cardinals to see if they might want to sign the Tolleson High and UofA product.
The Cardinals like Bell and think he's talented, but determined he doesn't have what the club needs at the position: speed. Bell is too much like the backs they already have, so the Cardinals passed.

Dang we shoulda signed Kevin Jones when he was out there and available!!!! Did the FO even talk to him? He has some speed or he used to anyway. It seems like he would almost have to have been an upgrade as a backup RB than Arrington or Shipp. I just don't feel good about our RB position.

 

[40yearfan]

Dang we shoulda signed Kevin Jones when he was out there and available!!!! Did the FO even talk to him? He has some speed or he used to anyway. It seems like he would almost have to have been an upgrade as a backup RB than Arrington or Shipp. I just don't feel good about our RB position.

BRA, I don't believe the coaching staff thinks we have a problem at RB. They must have something up their sleeve that they didn't even look at any of the FA RB's.

I am truly anxious to see what transpires in the first pre-season game to see if they unveil something unexpected in that department.

 

[Sandan]

Test

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[Sandan]

To prevent thread killing, I will be merging Rod Grave hate posts to here in future.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Thank you Nidan.

 

[Sandan]

There was a problem with moderating commands this week, I just got thread merging working again

 

[AZCB34]

I say right in my post that Rod Graves has a hand in all that. Do you think all those things are Graves decisions and Graves alone? That no one else is involved? I fully acknowledge that Rod Graves is part of that process, I even said that, I don't understand the confusion here.

At the end of the day, yes, he is the final decision-maker as far as football operations are concerned. The coaches can ask for whomever they choose and I assume alot of decisions are made by consensus but when all is said and done, the GM makes the final call.

BTW, don't think for a minute that Graves had much to do with Fitz...that was a Denny thing and it has been reported over and over that Denny was in control and ran roughshod over Rod.

To agree with you, Rod probably isn't the worst but he is certainly in the bottom 1/3 right now. Only winning...consistently winning...will ever change that. Looks like the team is headed in the right direction but until they get there...

 

[Stout]

To prevent thread killing, I will be merging Rod Grave hate posts to here in future.

Fair enough, and I think it's a good idea, given how similar the threads were. Just to be clear, though, this will be done with other subjects too, right? Say if Q starts to get ugly in his contract demands, and we get a ton of similar threads on that? Not trying to start a fight or anything. Just checking to make sure everything's going to be treated the same.

 

[40yearfan]

But according to you, it wasn't in-game decision that destroyed the Cards' 2007 season, it was injuries. Graves can't control injuries, but he has control over depth. There's no question that Graves' decision to accelerate bonuses for Leinart and Rolle and stupid contract structures for players like Al Johnson and stupid overall signing of a player like Terrance Holt severely hindered the Cards' ability to build a deep roster last offseason.

At whose doorstep that that land? Graves learned some from that mistake, and worked on depth, but his mistake in not anticipating Larry Fitzgerald meeting his incentives meant that the Cards missed out on more and/or better depth in the form of Brandon Chillar and Keydrick Vincent (to say nothing of Alan Faneca--but I never thought he was an option). Not only that, but it seems obvious at this point that Graves bet that we could get a back to share the load with Edgerrin James in the draft, and didn't pursure free agent running backs. We ended up with Tim Hightower, who will be fortunate to see 50 carries this season. Somehow, Marcel Shipp and his $1.75 million salary remains on the roster. At whose doorstep does that land?

I don't think that there are many here who think that Rod Graves is the worst GM in the NFL, but I'm not sure that you can name 5 GMs who still have jobs that are worse than him. Certainly only one GM has had worse results and kept his job.

So let's see if we've got this straight. If the Cards have a winning season this year, all the credit will go to RG and none to Whis and his staff? If you plan on putting all the blame on RG for roster personnel, not anticipating injuries and not getting additional RB's, it stands to reason that he should get all the credit when we win. Right?

 

[cardsfanmd]

BRA, I don't believe the coaching staff thinks we have a problem at RB. They must have something up their sleeve that they didn't even look at any of the FA RB's.

I am truly anxious to see what transpires in the first pre-season game to see if they unveil something unexpected in that department.

If by "something up their sleeves" you mean that they were too preoccupied with Fitz then I agree. How can we possibly delusional enough to believe this? I dont think the RB position is in as bad of shape as most, but I doubt the team addressed the position like they wanted to going into the offseason.

RG even said that we would be looking early in the draft to address speed at the RB position. Whiz said it all offeason. RG has never shown himself adept at multi-tasking, this is a fact.

The team should have pursed Mwelde Moore, but instead gambled on a RB falling to them in a favorable position. It didn't happen, so in the 5th they reached for Hightower and have been praying ever since IMO.

btw-- I am praying with them.