Rod Graves

[Garthshort]

If he isn't re-signed, or possibly kicked up stairs, we have cause for concern. Not that I think he's a great GM, or equivalent, it's just that I adhere to the concept, "that if it's not broke, don't fix it". Well maybe you can argue that with a 6-10 record, last season, it is broke. But if it is, the fixing has been done (FA/Draft) and the patient is well on its way to recovery. Never in the team's history in the desert has things looked as good as they do now. Moving into a new stadium is not the time to make changes and insert a minor league Jerry Jones into an increased football role. I believe that Michael Bidwill is doing a good job in his capacity as owner/administrator. Let's keep it that way. And by rewarding Rod with a new contract, ownership is sending a message to its fans that things are good.

 

[lobo]

re: garthshort

rod graves came to the cards from the bears and has really grown into the spot as a very fine gm....many times under very difficult circumstances....he maintained a realtionship with the bears evidenced by the number of former bear types somehow morphed onto our platform...some okay...some not too great. i agree in totally that it would not be a good signal if rod did not get to re-up with us...makes you wonder about what's around the corner...young bidwill quietly learned plenty from rod....he deserves a real vote of confidence with a good contract...he appears to me a man of high values and morals...i know he would make other changes as difficult as they might have to be if things don't go according to plan...we'll know pretty soon...also bear in mind there are other fish (teams) in the pond currently looking for talented gm's...let not let him head east!!

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I don't know what's funnier, people losing sleep about Rod Graves leaving or the laughable notion that other teams would be interested in the services of a GM whose team's record during his tenure at the position is 15-33.

Is everyone forgetting the one offseason he had the most control of the team and we ended up with Pace and BJ with the sixth overall pick and the worst free agent class in NFL history. Or when he followed that up joke of an offseason by trying to re-sign every garbage player that had led us to those embarrassing years?

If Graves stays as a figure head to talk the old man into spending money as he has done in the past, then I'm okay with him staying in his office. But let;'s not pretend Rod Graves is some personnel genius who would be sorely missed in that aspect of the organization. His and the team's record clearly speaks for itself.

 

[Mulli]

I don't know what's funnier, people losing sleep about Rod Graves leaving or the laughable notion that other teams would be interested in the services of a GM whose team's record during his tenure at the position is 15-33.

Is everyone forgetting the one offseason he had the most control of the team and we ended up with Pace and BJ with the sixth overall pick and the worst free agent class in NFL history. Or when he followed that up joke of an offseason by trying to re-sign every garbage player that had led us to those embarrassing years?

If Graves stays as a figure head to talk the old man into spending money as he has done in the past, then I'm okay with him staying in his office. But let;'s not pretend Rod Graves is some personnel genius who would be sorely missed in that aspect of the organization. His and the team's record clearly speaks for itself.

Well said.

 

[Sandan]

Is everyone forgetting the one offseason he had the most control of the team and we ended up with Pace and BJ with the sixth overall pick and the worst free agent class in NFL history. Or when he followed that up joke of an offseason by trying to re-sign every garbage player that had led us to those embarrassing years?

You are the one forgetting...

How many times do I have to say that you are making an massive assumption here. You are assuming that RG made those picks not Mac.

This is not an assumption I would make and that isn't based on the fact that I like RG as a person.

 

[Garthshort]

Mao Tosi, I, as you, don't know who made those picks. What I do know is that the "ship" seems to be moving pretty well now, and we don't need to be changing direction because we seem to be on course.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Even forgiving that awful draft, who gave out all those contract extensions to the likes of Bryan Gilmore, LJ Shelton, and Small Play Ray Thompson halfway through the 2003 season when everyone in the world knew McGinnis was gone come Week 17?

And I really don't buy into the thought that McGinnis was solely responsible for every boneheaded move made duuring his and Graves' collaboration. I mean, if you were Rod and you wanted to get rid of the head coach the second you got the GM gig (as 90% of GMs do and as many have suggested Graves wanted to do), why the hell would follow the advice of said head coach when you're his boss and you have every intention of firing him?

 

[Sandan]

Rod Graves was only the "GM' for Mac's last year.

In answer to your question, I would suggest that it's possible that as RG took over Jan that year, I suspect they took that year to come up with the plan we are now seeing the results of now. Knowing RG somewhat I'm pretty sure he wouldn't take preemptive action until he had a good plan, DG might but not Rod.

So on balance RG has had one questionable year and that was his first and the first year MB took over control. Since then they have done a tellar job IMO. With improvments each year

Given how bad we were, I'm not surprised it's taken a while for those improvments to result in wins.

I'm not being an appologist for RG, it's just at the time we are discussing ASFN had access. We would get to talk with RG freqently, so we had a little insight into how things worked.

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can you read this ?
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[Scott MS]

If he isn't re-signed, or possibly kicked up stairs, we have cause for concern. Not that I think he's a great GM, or equivalent, it's just that I adhere to the concept, "that if it's not broke, don't fix it". Well maybe you can argue that with a 6-10 record, last season, it is broke. But if it is, the fixing has been done (FA/Draft) and the patient is well on its way to recovery. Never in the team's history in the desert has things looked as good as they do now. Moving into a new stadium is not the time to make changes and insert a minor league Jerry Jones into an increased football role. I believe that Michael Bidwill is doing a good job in his capacity as owner/administrator. Let's keep it that way. And by rewarding Rod with a new contract, ownership is sending a message to its fans that things are good.

Rod Graves before Dennis Green = BAD
Rod Graves after Dennis Green = GOOD

Is Rod Graves really good, or just have solid guys around him, like Green? After all, he's mostly negotiating deals, not necessarily scouting talent. I think the Cards may go after a more proven GM.

 

[Skkorpion]

Rod Graves before Dennis Green = BAD
Rod Graves after Dennis Green = GOOD

Is Rod Graves really good, or just have solid guys around him, like Green? After all, he's mostly negotiating deals, not necessarily scouting talent. I think the Cards may go after a more proven GM.

Rod Graves is in charge of scouting, not Green.

 

[Scott MS]

Rod Graves is in charge of scouting, not Green.

You are correct, but I am assuming he relies on his scouts and doesn't do the scouting himself. Seems like he manages the scouts and spends a lot of his time directly negotiating with agents. He has an important role.

 

[cdex99]

The biggest thing I remember when Rod Graves took over was when he changed the rookie injury policy, so that our 1st round picks would practice before they were signed. That was the first real positive change that had his stamp all over it.

He may have made some questionable contract extensions, but this was a franchise that did not do this before Graves came to power. There was also a coaching change and the players one coach liked, another did not. He got Adrian Wilson extended and Boldin extended.

I think Rod Graves is deserving of a new contract with the Cardinals.

 

[jefftheshark]

IIRC, we were so far under the cap that we were in danger of not meeting the minimum spending requirements. RG had to extend someone and he selected the players he thought had the most "upside".

That DG didn't like the players he selected (Shelton, for example) is hardly an indictment of RG, since we have debated that particular move on this board ad nauseam.

The Shark

 

[Reddog]

You guys are missing the obvious answer. Bill Bidwill is fiercely loyal and I don't see him jettisoning Rod Graves on the eve of the transformation and the opening of the new stadium. If Rod leaves it will be his choice because he may not want to be relegated to a position with no input. That would be stupid because any other franchise will know that DG is the reason for our successful shift toward righting the ship. I mean this as no disrespect for RG because I too think he is a good man who is good for the organization.

My guess is Denny likes to have a guy to smooth out the rough spots upstairs and Rod has proven not only capable of this but capable of submitting to the will of Denny. Denny is in essence the GM but he has Rod to execute his plans. Great scenario for both assuming DG really does start winning. So why not keep him under a reasonable contract. If I were Bidwill I would want someone that could keep an eye on DG so he doesn’t get too out of control.

The one caveat would be if DG was cocky and stupid enough to think he could bring in his son for such a high level position. I can’t see Bidwill going for that.

 

[Sandan]

True but MB is in charge now, loyal yes, but driven to turn this franchise around

 

[lobo]

mentioned a long time ago...this team NEVER spent what is traditionally normal on scouting....keep that in mind...it has changed under a "new regime" those of you being critical...how would you have liked your paycheck signed by you know who and given a budget of about $100.00 taiwanese and expect to get the job done...you're better off watching espn to do your scouting or subscribe to ourlads....this year is a legit year...let's see what happens...do y'all think that larry brown forgot how to coach too???

 

[Reddog]

True but MB is in charge now, loyal yes, but driven to turn this franchise around

Sr. has moved into the 21st century with more creative contracts but this is not a hill to die on for Michael. I can see him honoring the father but who knows what happens behind closed doors.

 

[Sandan]

MB is very respectful of his father but I have no doubt he exercises control.

Too much has changed since he took over

 

[joeshmo]

Even forgiving that awful draft, who gave out all those contract extensions to the likes of Bryan Gilmore, LJ Shelton, and Small Play Ray Thompson halfway through the 2003 season when everyone in the world knew McGinnis was gone come Week 17?

We had to spend something like 10 Million dollars by mid season that year or face penalty from the league. We were so low under the cap that year we would have been breaking the CBA rules if we didnt spend 10 more Mill up to that point. There wasnt any FA by mid season to spend 10 Mill on so they spent it on the players they arleady had. They were forced into spending that money on our own guys becuase they didnt spend it during the FA period prior to that. And not spending the money up to that point wasnt Graves fault.

 

[Hardy Brown]

General Managers are not Head Coaches. They oversee the direction of the football team, on the field and off. They supersede coaching regimes on a regular basis, sometimes hiring/firing two, three or more staffs throughout their tenure. They have more job security than coaches; exhibit "A:" Matt Millen.

In my opinion, the only criterion one ought to use in evaluating the job of a GM is whether or not the franchise is improving - on and off the field. Coaches usually deal with a team's on-the-field business. Owners usually deal with a team's off-the-field business. GM's deal with both.

Not every decision a GM makes is going to be the right one; people should consider the overall progress of the team: where have they been and where are they going. Coaches make mistakes in games, owners make mistakes in hires, and general-managers make mistakes in both.

When you filter the progress of the Cardinals through the screen of history, there is no doubt as to the exceptional job Rod Graves has done. This franchise has trolled at the bottom of the NFL for decades, failing to do the things the rest of the league has been doing for years. Do you believe this should've been fixed overnight?

Rod Graves got ownership to do some things that would have made them claw their eyes out in the past: hire and pay a "big-time" Head Coach, Re-up players before they become free-agents, draft a franchise quarterback (whom they must pay) and land the biggest free-agent in the pond! The franchise is headed in the right direction - finally.

Many people might incorrectly attribute these mini-victories to Dennis Green. But in the world of general managers, and how they should be judged, Rod Graves deserves the credit. Afterall, who hired Dennis Green?

Wins ultimately decide the fate for general-managers, but three or four years in this league is like giving a head-coach a year to turn things around. The book may be out on Rod Graves but, hey, at least let him write the ending.

 

[jefftheshark]

In my opinion, the only criterion one ought to use in evaluating the job of a GM is whether or not the franchise is improving - on and off the field. Coaches usually deal with a team's on-the-field business. Owners usually deal with a team's off-the-field business. GM's deal with both.

Rod Graves got ownership to do some things that would have made them claw their eyes out in the past

Great post, however, I sincerely doubt that Rod Graves "got" ownership to "do" anything. In actuality, there was a change in ownership that had more to do with the updated business model. IMHO, the changes occurred when the Father handed the reins to the Son. Graves was in a position to transition the ownership change, but it seems he has always been true to the one in power. This would explain the botched draft of 2003 (kowtowing to Bill & Mac) and the great success of 2004 (kowtowing to Michael & Green).

I am not a Cardinal insider, but I suspect that Graves is not that integral to the ultimate success of the franchise. But he hasn't hurt it, either.

The Shark

 

[Sandan]

As you say you aren't an insider.

However what I have heard suggests that Hardy is correct. ASFN may not be insiders but then [and to some extent now], we do have friends who are.

You give Rod Graves to little credit based what I have have heard.

 

[Hardy Brown]

For the record, I don't pretend to be a "Cardinal Insider," either. My point deals more with how pro football works.

Exhibit "B:"

Coaches that work with developing talent are credited with developing that talent (or not), placing their successes on resumes while hiding their failures in renaissance paintings. This is how position-coaches achieve "status" in the NFL. Many, if enough of their proteges succeed, go on to bigger offices, better pay and coordinator jobs.

Is this fair? No. Is it the way things work in the NFL? Yes.

Why would it be any different with general-managers? Owners receive credit for anything good that happens in the organization (including the hire of a GM that pans-out), general-managers receive credit for hiring head coaches (that win) and scouts (that win in April), head-coaches receive credit for winning football games, and assistant-coaches receive credit for winning, football players.

Regardless of whether you think Rod Graves is powerless or not calling-the-shots (which is inaccurate), he should be credited with the changes occurring in Tempe. Few people, including owners, like to hire employees, put them in positions of power, pay them very well and then relegate them to puppet-boy. If Rod Graves has no power (which he does), why are they paying him?

It is under his watch the Cardinals have stepped into the twenty-first century. If this team did not have the history it does, one could question the job he's done. When you consider the Tempe-Transformation in the context of perennial-loser, if the Cardinals win this year, he might receive the NFL's Executive-of-the-Year award...

 

[Sandan]

It's back with the major dorkage removed

Another mod trashed it.

 

[AzCards21]

It's back with the major dorkage removed.

That cracks me up.