Rodney Hudson - returns after holding out?

[Chopper0080]

Our starting O line vs the Rams on the road was Hump, Pugh, Hudson, Garcia, Jones. We won 37-20. Aaron Donald didn't have a sack.

Our starting O line vs the Brown's was Hump, Pugh, Garcia, Jones, Beachum. We won 37-14.

The same line started vs the Texans. We won 31-5.

It got worse vs the Packers with Sean Harlow replacing Garcia at C. We were an AG Green brain fart away from winning.

Our starting O line vs the Seahawks on the road had Garcia and Harlow manning both guards positions. We won 23-13.

Harlow and Garcia again manned the guard positions against the Bears and we won 33-22.

Hump missed the Cowboys game so Beachum switched to LT, Jones played RT and Garcia RG. We won 25-22.

That's just 7 games where we had 2 of that level of player you mention starting and we won all but 1 and should have won the 1.

These three games totaled 10 QB hits and resulted in Kyler being out for three games due to injury.

You also fail to mention that we lost to the Panthers, Rams, Lions and Colts as well during that span without the group of Hudson, Pugh, Humphries and Beachum. Three of those four being non-playoff teams and two of those teams picked in the top 6 of the draft.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think the Cardinals can get by a game here and there vs the right teams with an offensive line consisting of fringe NFL starters but I don't believe they can have consistent success with a group like that. I feel like 2021 showed us that inconsistency.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If the team is in fact trying to get Hudson to come back to play, that in itself is a bad omen. Every time someone is convinced to come back to do something, it almost never works out. Their heart really isn't in it and often they change their mind. Can you imagine how bad it would be if Hudson decided at the end of camp or a few games in that he decided it was a mistake to come back and decides to retire? I think the team should be looking forward, not trying to convince Hudson to reconsider.

This.

 

[Chopper0080]

Another part I feel is understated is Kyler's struggles managing a messy pocket and how an inconsistent offensive line exacerbates that. Tough to tell a young QB to trust the pocket and then trot out a bunch of dudes who struggle with consistency because they are limited players.

 

[BritCard]

These three games totaled 6 QB hits and resulted in Kyler being out for three games due to injury.

You also fail to mention that we lost to the Panthers, Rams, Lions and Colts as well during that span without the group of Hudson, Pugh, Humphries and Beachum. Three of those four being non-playoff teams and two of those teams picked in the top 6 of the draft.

Well yeah, I didn't mention them because I was countering the point that we are unlikely to win games with 2 of that level starting. When we did just that last year.

I wasn't trying to say we were invincible. No team is. We lost games with a full strength line too.

Kyler was hurt on a designed run outside the tackles. Not sure what you expect the O line to do about that. Especially when there was a very obvious blitz coming and he failed to check out of it.

 

[Chopper0080]

That is why it is easy for the Browns to bail on Baker. They gave him an offensive coach. They gave him a top offensive line. They gave him a running game and weapons and he still struggled to put it together. No excuses after all of that.

 

[DaHilg]

Another part I feel is understated is Kyler's struggles managing a messy pocket and how an inconsistent offensive line exacerbates that. Tough to tell a young QB to trust the pocket and then trot out a bunch of dudes who struggle with consistency because they are limited players.

This 100%

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The problem with Mike is that he's simultaneously far, far better than his father and all others that came before him

No, he's just not. Maybe he's moved the team from a bottom 3 franchise to bottom 5-8, but claiming he much better than his father is just factually inaccurate.

We've won ONE playoff game since 2015. That's not the sign of progress!!!!

, I seriously think he's a good guy and one of the better people in the league.

LOL, based on what?

Regarding Keim, he's an average GM.

No, he's not. He's a bad GM. He's bad a drafting, bad in FA acquisitions, bad at retaining talent, bad at managing a salary cap.

He's teflon because of his relationship with MB - any serious organization would have gotten rid of Keim a long time ago.

I think there's a very high chance that if we replace him we end up with someone worse because this franchise doesn't attract the top candidates.

Stick with the failure you know?

I also think in general GM's are less important than people make out, especially one that has their owner hovering over their shoulder.

The people who choose the actual talent on the field and those that prepare them aren't that important, m'kay.

The future of this franchise relies on us getting game 1-8 Kliff and Kyler more often than and game 12-17 Kliff and Kyler.

Hopefully something changes, although the track record doesn't give me much hope.

I don't think Keim gets a contract beyond this extension unless we make the playoffs consistently and is considered a contender for at least some of that time.

You realize they just extended him for another half decade...you want a lifetime appointment?

 

[football karma]

Another part I feel is understated is Kyler's struggles managing a messy pocket and how an inconsistent offensive line exacerbates that. Tough to tell a young QB to trust the pocket and then trot out a bunch of dudes who struggle with consistency because they are limited players.

Keim has managed the o line in a very Seahawk way:

"Hey, I have mobile QB that can escape the rush -- no need to spend resources there"

both ignoring the fact that Russ won his only Superbowl with Russ Okung and Max Unger on the o-line

 

[DaHilg]

Keim has managed the o line in a very Seahawk way:

"Hey, I have mobile QB that can escape the rush -- no need to spend resources there"

both ignoring the fact that Russ won his only Superbowl with Russ Okung and Max Unger on the o-line

That’s an excellent comparison

 

[QuebecCard]

That’s an excellent comparison

Sure it is if you ignore that the CARDS have two first-round selections on the left side and that Hudson, like Unger, is a 3-time Pro Bowler.

 

[Chopper0080]

Last thoughts (for now) on the offensive line and what is shows regarding Keim as a GM.

1 - It is pretty crazy that the Cardinals can enter a season spending the 2nd most in the NFL on the offensive line and our debate is if the line is around the 15th best in the NFL. Highlights a poor use of cap dollars especially heading into years where we may have to do more with less due to a large QB contract.


2 - The 2023 roster issue is bad and highlights a bad plan. Regardless of those on this board who are more forgiving, the idea that we went into the draft knowing there was a likelihood of our only OL under contract being Josh Jones and we chose to only add two late round OGs is pretty negligent. Even more so when you consider Jones lack of quality play.

So we understand that Keim is not effective with the dollars he spends and that he struggles to have a long term plan to continue to develop positions that matter to instead dump resources into shiny toys. That is why we have two first round LBs who have disappointed to date in their careers and 50mil in 2023 cap dollars for a WR group that also cost a 1st, 2nd and a 2nd.

 

[Chopper0080]

Sure it is if you ignore that the CARDS have two first-round selections on the left side and that Hudson, like Unger, is a 3-time Pro Bowler.

Ok, I will bite. How many of those pro-bowls did Hudson have with the Cardinals? If he retires (which is at least a 50/50 proposition at this point) he will have played 12 games for AZ all of those games post 30. We will have given up a 3rd round pick, given Hudson an extension, eat 8 mil in dead money, and have no legitimate C on the roster...for 12 games.

Pugh...yes he was a first round pick by another team as he was selected as an OT. That didn't work out. Turned out to be a good OG and we did sign him for his prime years yet now he is considering retirement and we have a 6th round rookie behind him. Not the most forward thinking plan.

Humphries. Probably one of the best picks Keim has made but he is still an average to slightly above average LT who is making 19 mil this year and will head into FA (at this point) with only undrafted Joshua Miles behind him who the team prefers Beachum at LT to than him. Another plan that lacks foresight.

 

[DaHilg]

Ok, I will bite. How many of those pro-bowls did Hudson have with the Cardinals? If he retires (which is at least a 50/50 proposition at this point) he will have played 12 games for AZ all of those games post 30. We will have given up a 3rd round pick, given Hudson an extension, eat 8 mil in dead money, and have no legitimate C on the roster...for 12 games.

Pugh...yes he was a first round pick by another team as he was selected as an OT. That didn't work out. Turned out to be a good OG and we did sign him for his prime years yet now he is considering retirement and we have a 6th round rookie behind him. Not the most forward thinking plan.

Humphries. Probably one of the best picks Keim has made but he is still an average to slightly above average LT who is making 19 mil this year and will head into FA (at this point) with only undrafted Joshua Miles behind him who the team prefers Beachum at LT to than him. Another plan that lacks foresight.

You didn’t just bite… you just ate him! I have hard time considering Hump a top 16 LT, pro bowls don’t mean much today. All Pro Teams do.

 

[QuebecCard]

Ok, I will bite. How many of those pro-bowls did Hudson have with the Cardinals? If he retires (which is at least a 50/50 proposition at this point) he will have played 12 games for AZ all of those games post 30. We will have given up a 3rd round pick, given Hudson an extension, eat 8 mil in dead money, and have no legitimate C on the roster...for 12 games.

Pugh...yes he was a first round pick by another team as he was selected as an OT. That didn't work out. Turned out to be a good OG and we did sign him for his prime years yet now he is considering retirement and we have a 6th round rookie behind him. Not the most forward thinking plan.

Humphries. Probably one of the best picks Keim has made but he is still an average to slightly above average LT who is making 19 mil this year and will head into FA (at this point) with only undrafted Joshua Miles behind him who the team prefers Beachum at LT to than him. Another plan that lacks foresight.

I'm simply responding to post 309, and have only minor disagreement with your overall assessment.

 

[QuebecCard]

You didn’t just bite… you just ate him! I have hard time considering Hump a top 16 LT, pro bowls don’t mean much today. All Pro Teams do.

Unger had one first team All Pro and Hudson has one second team. Huge difference to your mind, I'm sure. Feel free to give us the names of the 16 better than Hump with stats and throw in Pugh's betters while you're at it.

The proof of a pudding is in the eating, not guessing as to its taste.

 

[kerouac9]

So we understand that Keim is not effective with the dollars he spends and that he struggles to have a long term plan to continue to develop positions that matter to instead dump resources into shiny toys.

I dunno. I think that Keim actually might be effective with the dollars he spends but he has to spend so many dollars because his draft picks don't really pan out.

The problem is the draft. If the drafts were better this is less of a problem. Second contracts are the most valuable in the NFL after rookie contracts.

 

[football karma]

Sure it is if you ignore that the CARDS have two first-round selections on the left side and that Hudson, like Unger, is a 3-time Pro Bowler.

my beef on the o line is that Keim choose to run back the same group -- swapping in Will Hernandez for Max Garcia -- that got manhandled the last 8 games of the season.

and oh-by-the-way: while he knew Rodney Hudson was considering retiring.

 

[DaHilg]

Unger had one first team All Pro and Hudson has one second team. Huge difference to your mind, I'm sure. Feel free to give us the names of the 16 better than Hump with stats and throw in Pugh's betters while you're at it.

The proof of a pudding is in the eating, not guessing as to its taste.

Well, I know PFF sucks in a lot of rankings… 32nd ranked tackle for the 2022 season is your BFF, Mr Humphries. He’s been less than average all his career aside from one year.

 

[BritCard]

Keim has managed the o line in a very Seahawk way:

"Hey, I have mobile QB that can escape the rush -- no need to spend resources there"

both ignoring the fact that Russ won his only Superbowl with Russ Okung and Max Unger on the o-line

That’s an excellent comparison

Russell Okung missed 8 games with injury and was poor when he came back. The O line finished 27th in PFF's O line rankings and allowed the 9th most sacks in the league.

They had shining lights like Michael Bowie and Paul McQuistan starting a bunch of games. Their O line was far worse than what the cards had last year.

 

[Stout]

my beef on the o line is that Keim choose to run back the same group -- swapping in Will Hernandez for Max Garcia -- that got manhandled the last 8 games of the season.

and oh-by-the-way: while he knew Rodney Hudson was considering retiring.

Seriously.

 

[football karma]

Russell Okung missed 8 games with injury and was poor when he came back. The O line finished 27th in PFF's O line rankings and allowed the 9th most sacks in the league.

Russ has always taken sacks -- not all on his line

even with the flaws, it was the best oline for nearly all of Russ' tenure with the seahawks. Marshawn Lynch didnt hurt either.

the strategic point is this: the Cards have a really good Qb but one with some flaws (they all have flaws BTW): he holds the ball to first see people open and he gets skittish in the pocket with the rush around him. BUT: he can throw a highly accurate deep ball from a variety of positions.

all that says: get an oline that protects well. Give him that extra 1 sec to survey the field, find his guy and deliver. You would have a very difficult to defend big passing play offense.

 

[BritCard]

Russ has always taken sacks -- not all on his line

even with the flaws, it was the best oline for nearly all of Russ' tenure with the seahawks. Marshawn Lynch didnt hurt either.

the strategic point is this: the Cards have a really good Qb but one with some flaws (they all have flaws BTW): he holds the ball to first see people open and he gets skittish in the pocket with the rush around him. BUT: he can throw a highly accurate deep ball from a variety of positions.

all that says: get an oline that protects well. Give him that extra 1 sec to survey the field, find his guy and deliver. You would have a very difficult to defend big passing play offense.

Both things are probably true. It might be his best O line (on paper anyway), but that's mainly because all others were really bad. I missed Giacomini who was starting RT and missed 7 games through injury. Unger missed 3 too.

I think your original point was that the Seahawks won the SB because they had a good line for once, maybe they did in the end when everyone was fit. But they went 13-3 and #1 seed playing a whole bunch of games with McQuistan, Carpenter, Sweezy and Bowie starting.

That whole season was built on the defense and the run game. Russ only threw for 3350 yards and 209 yards per game. Wilson only made 407 pass attempts in the regular season. The lowest of any QB that played more than 12 games. Mike Glennon had more attempts and missed 3 games. Peyton Manning by comparison had 659 attempts.

Bare in mind they had the 9th most sacks in the league but the least pass attempts. That's bad. They had a 9.92% sack percentage. The worse in the league by a whole percentage point. It actually got worse with Okung and Giacomini back and went to nearly 14% through the final 5 games.

I'm not defending our O line like it's great. It could and should be better. I'd like nothing more than to have 5 studs out there. But it's ok to good in pass pro. Run blocking is a real issue though.

I have hope for both our rookie guards. I think both have very good potential.

 

[DaHilg]

Both things are probably true. It might be his best O line (on paper anyway), but that's mainly because all others were really bad. I missed Giacomini who was starting RT and missed 7 games through injury. Unger missed 3 too.

I think your original point was that the Seahawks won the SB because they had a good line for once, maybe they did in the end when everyone was fit. But they went 13-3 and #1 seed playing a whole bunch of games with McQuistan, Carpenter, Sweezy and Bowie starting.

That whole season was built on the defense and the run game. Russ only threw for 3350 yards and 209 yards per game. Wilson only made 407 pass attempts in the regular season. The lowest of any QB that played more than 12 games. Mike Glennon had more attempts and missed 3 games. Peyton Manning by comparison had 659 attempts.

Bare in mind they had the 9th most sacks in the league but the least pass attempts. That's bad. They had a 9.92% sack percentage. The worse in the league by a whole percentage point. It actually got worse with Okung and Giacomini back and went to nearly 14% through the final 5 games.

I'm not defending our O line like it's great. It could and should be better. I'd like nothing more than to have 5 studs out there. But it's ok to good in pass pro. Run blocking is a real issue though.

I have hope for both our rookie guards. I think both have very good potential.

I just can’t get on board that it was an even OK let along good pass rush Oline. Packers game and rest of the season it was gawd awful in pass protection. I’m not even sure how good it was during the first half of the year to be frank - was it good because teams were still trying to figure out our schemes? Was it good until teams realized our weakness was our interior line, thus apply more pressure there?

Our line was bad against bad pass rush Defenses even in our winning streak (Texans dominated our Oline in the first half of that game). You are giving way to much credit to this offensive line. It’s bad. The only elite player would be a Hudson on the back end of his career. I don’t see a top 16 starter elsewhere on the Oline and that’s being generous.

 

[QuebecCard]

my beef on the o line is that Keim choose to run back the same group -- swapping in Will Hernandez for Max Garcia -- that got manhandled the last 8 games of the season.

and oh-by-the-way: while he knew Rodney Hudson was considering retiring.

Source?