ROY Stoudamire update.....

[sunsfn]

Good article.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/1880453

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Yao Ming loses Rookie of the Year to Stoudemire
By JONATHAN FEIGEN
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle
Rockets first-year center Yao Ming, who earned rare levels of acclaim and attention this season, apparently has lost out to Amare Stoudemire of the Phoenix Suns in the race for the NBA's Rookie of the Year Award.

The NBA is expected to announce Stoudemire as the winner on Thursday after one of the most anticipated rookie battles in years.

It will be the second time in less than two weeks that the Suns have edged the Rockets -- Phoenix beat out Houston for the final playoff spot in the Western Conference by one game.

The NBA announced its awards schedule for the week today and will present rookie of the year on Thursday. Sources close to Yao, however, said he had no contact with the league about attending a press conference. He was scheduled to leave Houston today on his way to San Francisco and will return home to Shanghai over the weekend.

"Congratulations to Amare," Yao said. "This is just the start of many years (of competition between them) to come."

Yao, the first player taken in the NBA Draft, and Stoudemire, taken ninth, had similar statistics throughout the season.

Stoudemire averaged 13.5 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocked shots and one assist per game. He made 47.2 percent of his shots and 66.1 percent of his free throws.

Yao averaged 13.5 points 8.2 rebounds, 1.8 blocked shots and 2.8 assists per game. He made 49.8 percent of his shots and 81.1 percent of his free throws.

The Suns, however, pulled away from the Rockets in the race for the last playoff spot, building a three-game lead before losing the final two games after already clinched the playoff spot.

The Rockets, however, beat the Suns in three of their four meeting this season. Yao averaged 13.3 points and 6.8 rebounds, making 55.6 percent of his shots against the Suns. Stoudemire averaged 13 points and 6.5 rebounds, making 36.6 percent of his shots against the Rockets.
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Excellent........great award for a person coming from high school to ROY in the NBA!!

 

[SweetD]

Can it be true! O-my. It must be me I changed my wallpaper at work Today to Amare posterizing Candyman...

You must be registered for see images

 

[WizardOfAz]

"Congratulations to Amare," Yao said. "This is just the start of many years (of competition between them) to come."

A little double meaning in that??

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by SweetD
Can it be true! O-my. It must be me I changed my wallpaper at work Today to Amare posterizing Candyman...

You must be registered for see images

LOL i did the exact same thing the night after game 1

 

[SECTION 11]

910 is saying Amare's got it. Will be announced tomorrow.

 

[jbeecham]

Coach Frank Johnson confirmed that Amare will be the rookie of the year on KTAR during "talk to the coach"

 

[AZ4Life]

As much as I love Amare (and believe me, he's the best thing to happen to the Suns since Horry left ), I can't help but feel a little sad for Yao. He had a great season (with exception to being mauled by Shaq), and he overcame similar, if not greater obstacles than Amare: media pressure, international spotlight, expectations of a billion+ people, etc.
It would make me feel alot better if these two guys shared the award. They both equally deserve the award. Just my two cents - you guys don't flame me now

 

[elindholm]

It's only the third time since 1980 that the Rookie of the Year wasn't one of the top five draft picks:

1987-88: Mark Jackson (#18)
1995-96: Damon Stoudamire (#7)
2002-03: Amare Stoudemire (#9)

(In 1987, David Robinson was the #1 pick, but he didn't win Rookie of the Year until 1989-90.)

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by AZ4Life
As much as I love Amare (and believe me, he's the best thing to happen to the Suns since Horry left ), I can't help but feel a little sad for Yao. He had a great season (with exception to being mauled by Shaq), and he overcame similar, if not greater obstacles than Amare: media pressure, international spotlight, expectations of a billion+ people, etc.
It would make me feel alot better if these two guys shared the award. They both equally deserve the award. Just my two cents - you guys don't flame me now

See I disagree. Yao comes from a hardworking culture (so his work ethic is pretty strong) and he played in a pro league as well as in international competition for the past few years.

Amare played about 2 years of high school ball altogether, so Yao came into this year with a lot of experience playing against better competition than Amare. Amare also had to take on tremendous media pressure, being an American high schooler.

That "billion+ people" comment is a joke. Very few Chinese care to be fully honest. When he was drafted, a reporter went throughout Hong Kong asking people if they had heard of Yao....not a single one had. That is in urban China....most of China lives in rural areas where there is no way that they have heard of Yao.

 

[elindholm]

Very few Chinese care to be fully honest.

I originally misinterpreted this as, "Very few Chinese care about telling the truth." I was trying to figure out why you had cast 1/6 of the world's population as compulsive liars.

That is in urban China....most of China lives in rural areas where there is no way that they have heard of Yao.

Or had a chance to watch him on television, etc.

Good points.

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by AZ4Life
I can't help but feel a little sad for Yao. He had a great season. It would make me feel alot better if these two guys shared the award. Just my two cents - you guys don't flame me now

Okay, I won't flame you -- but I'll flame this silly idea.

It's kind of funny how the bizarre Kidd/Hill and Brand/Francis outcomes have people thinking of "share the award" as an option to consider. It's not really an option, and would be a silly idea if it were.

• The award is determined by a vote. Nobody can decide to make it a tie. Something like 120 different people get to cast ballots. Co-ROYs occur in the case of an exact tie. Assuming the ballots are cast and tallied honestly, it takes an amazing fluke for an exact tie to occur.
  
• The award is Rookie of the Year. It doesn't matter whether he had a "great season" by some timeless standard. The question is whether he had a better season than any other rookie that same season. You can have a great season and fail to win the award, if an even-better rookie enters the league the same season. That's nothing to feel bad about.
  
  Yao is not the best rookie to whom this has ever happened. Penny Hardaway had a better rookie season than Yao, but didn't win the award, because he was beat by Chris Webber. Alonzo Mourning had a much better rookie season than Yao, but didn't win the award because was a rookie the same season as Shaq. Mike Miller's rookie season wasn't nearly as impressive as Yao's, Hardaway's, or Mourning's, but he won the award, because nobody was better that particular season.
  
  Now if you feel that Yao, Hardaway, and Mourning deserve an award, fine... but that award is not Rookie of the Year.
  
• It's sports, for cryin' out loud! It's competition! Somebody wins, and somebody comes in second place. Sometimes it's close, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes the second-place performance is an extraordinarily brilliant performance that just happens to be up against an even more brilliant performance. It's still second-best, and not entitled to an award. If you bowl a 279, that's an extraordinary game, and is usually going to be good enough to win, but if you happen to bowl your 279 on the same day that the other guy bowls a 300, you lose. If your 11-under-par round of golf happens to come on the same day that the other guy hits 12 under, you lose. That is the essence of competitive sports. "Share the award" is the most pansy-ass idea this side of male synchronized swimming.

Good Lord, did I actually just use a bowling example to describe "the essence of competitive sports"? Oh well — it works.

 

[Joe Mama]

I think most of us realized that the chances of there being another Co-Rookie of the Year finish were not great. That's not really the point. I feel the same way AZ4Life does. I wish that they would have been Co-ROY because I thought they were both equally deserving.

Forget all that crap about who had to overcome the most this season. The award should be about who had the best season. I know that the award goes to the best rookie that season. I realize that some rookies in the past like Hardaway had great first seasons that would have won them the award if not for another rookie who did better. But this year I don't think Amare Stoudemire really was better than Yao Ming or vice versa.

And it's not sports "for cryin' out loud!" Sure they both play basketball, which is a sport,, but they weren't going head to head. They weren't even on level playing fields. Forgetting about all of the off the court stuff, they didn't play with the same teammates, they didn't play the same positions, they didn't play for the same coaches in the same systems, etc..

I realized that one of them was probably going to get the award instead of sharing it. I just thought they both deserved it. Yao Ming and Amare Stoudemire, IMO, were more equally deserving than the other guys who shared the award.

Of course that's just my $.02 though.

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

Joe Mama,

that's my sentiment exactly. Both are deserving. For the fans of both clubs, they should be just grateful that they got a promising franchise player in Amare or Yao respectively. They will both be more dominating force in the league in a couple of years than Chris Weber ever has been, barring injuries.

 

[fordronken]

See I disagree. Yao comes from a hardworking culture (so his work ethic is pretty strong) and he played in a pro league as well as in international competition for the past few years.


So, by this reasoning, Amare shouldn't get it either, because he comes from a more athletically gifted culture. In fact, while we're on it, shouldn't Dirk have been a bigger MVP candidate because he overcame such great obstacles regarding athletecism?

 

[elindholm]

I think I should get it, because I have no athletic talent and I'm a lazy bum.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama


Forget all that crap about who had to overcome the most this season. The award should be about who had the best season. I know that the award goes to the best rookie that season. I realize that some rookies in the past like Hardaway had great first seasons that would have won them the award if not for another rookie who did better. But this year I don't think Amare Stoudemire really was better than Yao Ming or vice versa.

Joe Mama

See, this is what I disagree with. Ok, so it should be based on their performance over the current season, not on what they did last year or the year before.

But, as a rookie, don't those previous years shape the kind of player he is? Rookie of the Year takes inexperienced players and basically grades them. The best grade obviously wins (through a vote of course). It is impossible to not pay a little attention to Amare's lack of experience, and Yao's glut of experience. It is what shaped their play this season. Amare had virtually no coaching in only 2 years of competitive basketball (and it wasn't even that competitive), and he makes this kind of impact?

To me, that is far more deserving to be recognized.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
I think I should get it, because I have no athletic talent and I'm a lazy bum.

But see, that isn't a surprise. If there was a Bum of the Year award, then you'd win it hands down. But you're neither a rookie, nor a basketball player, so you're out of luck my friend.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
See, this is what I disagree with. Ok, so it should be based on their performance over the current season, not on what they did last year or the year before.

But, as a rookie, don't those previous years shape the kind of player he is? Rookie of the Year takes inexperienced players and basically grades them. The best grade obviously wins (through a vote of course). It is impossible to not pay a little attention to Amare's lack of experience, and Yao's glut of experience. It is what shaped their play this season. Amare had virtually no coaching in only 2 years of competitive basketball (and it wasn't even that competitive), and he makes this kind of impact?

To me, that is far more deserving to be recognized.

Thank you! You probably proved my point better than I could. Amare has actually played very little organized basketball, has never had proper coaching, has bounced from different living situations numerous times, has a mother in and out of jail....and many other very good reasons to award him over Yao.

Yao has had a lot of stability around him, and has parents that both competed in athletics at a high level. By contrast Amare's life has been pretty troubled, and he is a decently adjusted young man considering what he has gone through

 

[JJ Slim]

What exactly is the criteria for being ROY? Is there a set of guidelines or is it arbitrary? I've never heard of any rules that say if a rookie meets certain minimum qualifications he is considered for the award.

From my understanding there are 120+ polls sent out to people in the media and they have three votes- first place, second place and third place. As far as I can tell it is entirely up to each voter who he picks and how they qualify their own ratings. It could be that each has a set of guidelines that they follow or it could be that they just vote on who is most athletic, who scored the most points, who they like the most, who has the best hair (or lack of), who has the biggest nose, etc.

My point is that everyone is saying that the ROY has this quality or that attribute when in reality it is entirely subjective.

This is just my opinion of course.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JJ Slim


My point is that everyone is saying that the ROY has this quality or that attribute when in reality it is entirely subjective.

How do you figure JJ? We're discussing possible reasons for Amare getting ROY over Yao Ming. And it's not like they pick the names out of a hat--there ARE qualifications that the votes are based on. Is it possible that a voter could choose Amare for different reasons? Of course. But, really, how much could their opinions differ? Stats, team playoff position, there isn't much else that they could base their vote on.

 

[SweetD]

I think the ROY just like other awards is an opinionated vote. I believe the standard factor is what he individually has done that year and what success/failures he contributed to his team and their success. That is why Amare is ROY of the Year. It is a done deal now! No more lobbing for Yao or Amare is needed. The 120 media votes are in. Great to the Suns rising again! I think last year we got ride of allot of the BS Fans from the Barkley era and got down to the "True Fans" and I am happy to be included in that group.

Go Suns
2nd Round BABY!

 

[elindholm]

If there was a Bum of the Year award, then you'd win it hands down.

Actually, you may have missed my point.

You seem to be arguing that, since Stoudemire started with less knowledge and experience, his accomplishment this season was greater than Yao's. In other words, given where each player was a year ago and where each player is now, Stoudemire has made more progress. I'd agree with that.

But is the award "Rookie Who Made the Most Progress," or is it "Rookie Who Played the Best All Year"? Your argument requires that the award be decided more along the first way of thinking than the second. That's not wrong, but there's no requirement that everyone think that way. IF you think that Stoudemire flat outplayed Yao (and Butler), irrespective of their different backgrounds, then that's fine -- but then you have no need to resort to the whole "experience" question.

In my example about myself, I was pointing out that someone who has to overcome such huge obstacles as total lack of ability or work ethic would, by your argument, be a shoe-in for the award, since rising to a level of any competence at all would represent an infinite improvement.

In my opinion, the award is actually "Rookie Who Made the Biggest Impact on his Team and in the League." For that reason, I would have voted for Stoudemire, using the Suns' playoff spot as the tiebreaker, as I have been saying most of the season. But in my mind, Stoudemire does not get any "bonus points" for coming in with inexperience, any more than Yao gets bonus points for overcoming the language and culture barriers.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm


In my opinion, the award is actually "Rookie Who Made the Biggest Impact on his Team and in the League." For that reason, I would have voted for Stoudemire, using the Suns' playoff spot as the tiebreaker, as I have been saying most of the season. But in my mind, Stoudemire does not get any "bonus points" for coming in with inexperience, any more than Yao gets bonus points for overcoming the language and culture barriers.

Well, no offense, but who cares that you don't give him bonus points? Nobody cares either that I DO give him bonus points. What we've been doing is trying to decide HOW Amare got the award over Yao.

I agree with you that the Playoffs pretty much solidified Amare's winning the award. But we don't know the minds of the voters. You think they shouldn't take into consideration the player as he came into the league, I do.

Amare came in with little or no coaching. Yao did. Amare became our starting power forward and has proved to be one of the best already. We could give a lot of credit to the coaching staff for what they did with the kid, but in reality, he's 18 freaking years old! And you say it doesn't matter??

 

[elindholm]

My point is that everyone is saying that the ROY has this quality or that attribute when in reality it is entirely subjective.

Right, exactly. It's the decision of which criteria to apply that is subjective. People arrive at their decision emotionally, then justify it retroactively by subjectively deciding to enforce only selected criteria.

Let's say someone wanted to vote for Butler. Then he could say, "I think the award should go to the player who put up the best scoring numbers, and who statistically was the most important part of his team's offense." Once that criterion goes into effect, Butler is "objectively" the Rookie of the Year. But the decision was already made subjectively, by choosing a measure in which Butler was superior.

We're all doing the same thing with Stoudemire. Chaplin has decided that the player's development over the course of the season should carry a lot of weight. I think it should be the player who most significantly elevated his team. Yao supporters say that global issues should come into play, or that unusual ability at the league's most talent-starved position deserves extra recognition.

All of these factors are potentially valid criteria, and all of them can be applied "objectively" once the decision is made to use them. But it's deciding which criteria to use that is the subjective part.

That's why it was such hypocrisy when that columnist (Stein?) said that it should go to the player whose team makes the playoffs, only to reverse himself when the Suns beat out the Rockets for the final spot. He knew all along he was going to vote for Yao. He planned to "objectify" it by using the playoff yardstick, but that ended up not working, so he had to do something else. His mistake was not in making up his mind first -- most people did that, I'm sure -- but in deluding himself into thinking that he would be swayed by an objectively measured outcome that had not yet been determined.

 

[Chaplin]

Okay, I will definitely concede the discussion. And it's a pretty good one.

I still think the experience factor, while maybe not the end-all of the award voting, can't be ignored.