Ryan Kerrigan

[CardLogic]

Otherwise, please just go ahead and put a "+1", "", or "K9 is right" in your reply or refrain from doing so at all.

Review the thread, see my initial post in the thread; I agreed with you. But then you posted a video clip of Kerrigan; one in which he appeared dominant; to support that he wasn't worth the #5 pick. My point was that if I were going solely by the clip you provided the link for I might surmise that Kerrigan was worth a #5. Even though he wasn't double-teamed which you stated and I concurred.

But then you stated, "I don't know what your seeing..." I may have reacted too strongly to that statement, but then you confirmed your arrogant intent with your next post - "Otherwise, please just go ahead and put a "+1", "", or "K9 is right" in your reply or refrain from doing so at all."

You provide good analysis, k9. But you can't handle any criticism of your position or posts. It's then when you come across the board as being a dick.

Just for the record, no I don't think Kerrigan is worth the Cardinals' #5. But if I went by the video clip linked in this thread I might think otherwise.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't get the Acho love. I mean he produced in college, but he doesn't jump out at me as having any outstanding attributes. I see that he has lined up inside against guards a little bit, which I like, but I don't see that outstanding quickness on the edge which would make him a great edge rusher in the pros.

Our need for an impact edge rusher is so great that I don't see taking an Acho or a Brooks Reed as the answer. IMO we need to take a Quinn, Von Miller, or other top rusher and they need to have an impact early on.

We don't have a great need for an impact edge rusher. The guy is already on the roster. Acho is the perfect replacement for Haggens. Schofield provides the quickness on the edge, Acho anchors the strong side.

Acho, Dockett, Williams, Campbell, Schofield
Irving/Shepard Washington
DRC,Wilson,Rhodes,Peterson

We kick azz on defense.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't get the Acho love. I mean he produced in college, but he doesn't jump out at me as having any outstanding attributes. I see that he has lined up inside against guards a little bit, which I like, but I don't see that outstanding quickness on the edge which would make him a great edge rusher in the pros.

Our need for an impact edge rusher is so great that I don't see taking an Acho or a Brooks Reed as the answer. IMO we need to take a Quinn, Von Miller, or other top rusher and they need to have an impact early on.

I don't see a lot of Acho love; just a lot of people who likes what he brings to the table and is probably better than Reggie Walker/Will Davis. The problem at OLB will not be solved by drafting Von Miller at #5 overall. So why support for second-tier pass rushers?

1) The Philadelphia Eagles solved their secondary problem for a half-decade by drafting CBs with their first two or three picks. The Cards can solve their primary defensive problem--lack of outside pass rush and outside containment in the running game--by doubling-down at the position early in the draft.

2) What if Von Miller is off the board, but both Patrick Peterson and Robert Quinn are? IMO, the chance of becoming a super-duperstar at the OLB position is higher with Robert Quinn than they are with either Acho or Reed, but the chance of becoming a solid NFL starter and contributor at the OLB position is nearly equivalent between Robert Quinn and Sam Acho. Do the Cards--currently possessing two above-average interior pass rushers in Campbell and Dockett--find more value in drafting a guy who has a greater possibility of becoming a super-duperstar in Peterson and then doubling down with Acho and Reed in rounds two and three? I don't know.

It's kind of like at the QB position. The Cards have a short- and long-term problem at the QB position. The short-term problem will likely be solved with a free agent like Bulger, with the long-term problem being put off with the (smaller) chance of John Skelton becoming a much more accurate passer with another year in the system, plus the investment of a (possibly) high draft pick in 2012, when the QB class is/may be much stronger.

The Cards aren't going to get a short-term solution to the pass-rush problem this offseason. So would you rather see them go with Newton/Gabbert and Skelton for the long-term at QB and invest later picks in the pass rush, or have them go with Von Miller and O'Brien Schofield for the long-term at rush OLB?

I'm not sure I have an answer to that question right now.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't see a lot of Acho love; just a lot of people who likes what he brings to the table and is probably better than Reggie Walker/Will Davis. The problem at OLB will not be solved by drafting Von Miller at #5 overall. So why support for second-tier pass rushers?

1) The Philadelphia Eagles solved their secondary problem for a half-decade by drafting CBs with their first two or three picks. The Cards can solve their primary defensive problem--lack of outside pass rush and outside containment in the running game--by doubling-down at the position early in the draft.

2) What if Von Miller is off the board, but both Patrick Peterson and Robert Quinn are? IMO, the chance of becoming a super-duperstar at the OLB position is higher with Robert Quinn than they are with either Acho or Reed, but the chance of becoming a solid NFL starter and contributor at the OLB position is nearly equivalent between Robert Quinn and Sam Acho. Do the Cards--currently possessing two above-average interior pass rushers in Campbell and Dockett--find more value in drafting a guy who has a greater possibility of becoming a super-duperstar in Peterson and then doubling down with Acho and Reed in rounds two and three? I don't know.

It's kind of like at the QB position. The Cards have a short- and long-term problem at the QB position. The short-term problem will likely be solved with a free agent like Bulger, with the long-term problem being put off with the (smaller) chance of John Skelton becoming a much more accurate passer with another year in the system, plus the investment of a (possibly) high draft pick in 2012, when the QB class is/may be much stronger.

The Cards aren't going to get a short-term solution to the pass-rush problem this offseason. So would you rather see them go with Newton/Gabbert and Skelton for the long-term at QB and invest later picks in the pass rush, or have them go with Von Miller and O'Brien Schofield for the long-term at rush OLB?

I'm not sure I have an answer to that question right now.

I mean, I understand, but IMO neither Acho or Reed have much NFL OLB potential. Both of them are ok prospects that are having their stock boosted artificially because of the acute need for OLBs by many teams. IMO Acho and Reed are the Levi Brown's of the OLB world; good enough to draft early but don't have high ceilings and are being pushed up based on need not on potential.

Why not draft one of the top guys and use a later pick on a lesser heralded player in the midrounds?

ARRGH! This draft sucks! I can't think of another draft where there wasn't a clear answer for what we should be looking to draft this close to the draft.

But I do know this: Whisenhunt was personally at the workout of Robert Quinn and he looked like a manimal at the workout, so I'm hoping that he's the pick. He could be our Demarcus Ware, who quite a few draft experts are comparing him to.

 

[Duckjake]

I mean, I understand, but IMO neither Acho or Reed have much NFL OLB potential. Both of them are ok prospects that are having their stock boosted artificially because of the acute need for OLBs by many teams. IMO Acho and Reed are the Levi Brown's of the OLB world; good enough to draft early but don't have high ceilings and are being pushed up based on need not on potential.

Why not draft one of the top guys and use a later pick on a lesser heralded player in the midrounds?

ARRGH! This draft sucks! I can't think of another draft where there wasn't a clear answer for what we should be looking to draft this close to the draft.

But I do know this: Whisenhunt was personally at the workout of Robert Quinn and he looked like a manimal at the workout, so I'm hoping that he's the pick. He could be our Demarcus Ware, who quite a few draft experts are comparing him to.

Again, Acho is the same player as Brian Orakpo. He is not being over hyped as a 2nd or 3rd round pick. That's value. Orakpo has 19.5 sacks in two seasons and was the 13th pick in the first.

I also hear a lot about the Cards not wanting guys with character issues or dumb guys. You won't find many higher character or more intelligent football players at 6'2" 265 than Sam Acho.

On Tuesday, Acho won the William V. Campbell Trophy in New York City, presented annually to college football's top student-athlete who excels both on the field and in the classroom. Acho is an honors business major with a 3.55 grade-point average. Earlier he won the ARA Sportsmanship Award and the Wuerffel Award*.

*http://www.wuerffeltrophy.org/sacho.html

Who wouldn't want a guy like that in Arizona for a 2nd or 3rd?

 

[Duckjake]

Why not draft one of the top guys and use a later pick on a lesser heralded player in the midrounds?

For me it is because I think O'Brien Schofield is going to be our answer at the WOLB spot. He hardly played last season and was underweight from rehabbing his injury yet once he got his NFL feet under him registered a sack in each of the last two games. I think he has a bright future and the Cards did get a steal drafting him when they did.

I know, the Duckjake jinx. O'Brien Schofield sucks. We have to draft an OLB at #5.

 

[Cardiac]

For me it is because I think O'Brien Schofield is going to be our answer at the WOLB spot. He hardly played last season and was underweight from rehabbing his injury yet once he got his NFL feet under him registered a sack in each of the last two games. I think he has a bright future and the Cards did get a steal drafting him when they did.

I know, the Duckjake jinx. O'Brien Schofield sucks. We have to draft an OLB at #5.

Duck, you have changed my mind on drafting Von because of your O'Brien point. I think we have seen enough of O'Brien to believe he will fully recover from the knee injury and so we did invest a 1st/2nd rd pick on WOLB last year. Fix the SOLB and SILB positions and this D will be drastically better. I still draft a WOLB prospect mid/late rounds just for so.

I, like Stout and a couple others are on the Quinn bandwagon at this point (always with the Caveat about Whiz loving Newt or Gabby they go for it). Dude is only 20 years old and put up the outstanding stats as a 19 year old. He is growing and getting stronger and bigger as we speak. Freakin Manimal he is.

 

[JeffGollin]

I think the only way Kerrigan is in the mix for the Cards is a trade down. I doubt he's even in the discussion at #5. I wouldn't mind trading back with a team like the Jags and picking up an extra 2nd and late rounder...

I agree. Interestingly, there's buzz that the Jags are interested in Kerrigan for themselves.

Just guessing, but I could see the Cards zeroing in on Miller and Quinn, but going in a different position-direction at #5 should both be gone; opting instead to draft a pass rusher at #38 or #68.

 

[Mitch]

Duck, you have changed my mind on drafting Von because of your O'Brien point. I think we have seen enough of O'Brien to believe he will fully recover from the knee injury and so we did invest a 1st/2nd rd pick on WOLB last year. Fix the SOLB and SILB positions and this D will be drastically better. I still draft a WOLB prospect mid/late rounds just for so.

I, like Stout and a couple others are on the Quinn bandwagon at this point (always with the Caveat about Whiz loving Newt or Gabby they go for it). Dude is only 20 years old and put up the outstanding stats as a 19 year old. He is growing and getting stronger and bigger as we speak. Freakin Manimal he is.

If you like O'Brien Schofield...then I think you have to search for a SOLB to booked Schofield with. Schofield is a WOLB...he is not big enough or strong enought to play the strong side.

The thing is... Quinn projects as a WOLB...he's not strong enough at the point of attack to defend the run...and he is at his best when he can attack the QB's blindside from the weak side.

The other concern about Quinn is how he is going to assimilate into the pro game after not having played a snap of football in what will be a year and a half. Because of this---it's possible he will be a real injury risk. And that's the last thing we need, another injured WOLB.

This is why I am so high on Ryan Kerrigan and Jabaal Sheard...they are SOLBs deluxe...bullrushers with closing quickness and very good run defenders.

I like Brooks Reed as well, but he's a WOLB.

The other SOLB propects that may be good picks later:

Sam Acho, Texas
Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma
Mark Herzlich, Boston College

The issue with all three: they can all bull rush, but they are not particularly quick in turning the corner...not nearly the way Kerrigan and Sheard are....and Kerrigan and Sheard are significantly stronger bull rushers.

Of the three I prefer Herzlich because he is so smart...when he can't get an edge to the QB he gets in a passing lane instead, to tip the ball...plus, he will defend the run and be very good in coverage....Ray Horton would be instantly enamored with Herzlich. He's just not a beat you with quicks to the QB. So you can start Herzlich and turn to a situational LDE in the 4 man rush. That would be fine. The question is, who that situational rusher would be. My hope is that the Cardinals make a major effort to sign UFA Ray Edwards.

 

[Cardiac]

If you like O'Brien Schofield...then I think you have to search for a SOLB to booked Schofield with. Schofield is a WOLB...he is not big enough or strong enought to play the strong side.

At this point I totally agree that O'Brien best fit is at WOLB. That's why I don't want Von.

The thing is... Quinn projects as a WOLB...he's not strong enough at the point of attack to defend the run...and he is at his best when he can attack the QB's blindside from the weak side.

Quinn is big enough to play SOLB. He is still filling out as he is only 20 yrs old. You very well may be right that he won't be a SOLB but at least his measurable say otherwise. Horton likes his LB's to be interchangable so he starts off with D Wash and O'Brien who are pigeon holed into specific spots. At some point he has to start acquiring LB talent that can play most if not all LB positions.

The other concern about Quinn is how he is going to assimilate into the pro game after not having played a snap of football in what will be a year and a half. Because of this---it's possible he will be a real injury risk. And that's the last thing we need, another injured WOLB.

Any player drafted by the Cards will be eased into their playing time. Missing a year of football at 20 yrs old is not that big a deal IMHO. Gronkowski and Gresham? seemed to handle it okay. At this pro day Quinn looked like the has been training this past year so unlike many others I have almost zero concern about the year off.

This is why I am so high on Ryan Kerrigan and Jabaal Sheard...they are SOLBs deluxe...bullrushers with closing quickness and very good run defenders.

As I said you have sold me on Kerrigan if we trade down. Enough of our posters like Sheard as well so he is also a fine option. IIRC he does have some off field issues/concerns but I'm not sure how recent or egregious they were.

I mentioned earlier in this post that Horton likes his LBers to be interchangeable. To what degree is my question. Are Harrison and Woodley basically the same body type or are they truly a WOLB and SOLB respectively.

O'Brien played DE in College so hopefully he will be able to add some more weight and get to the 255 range. Quinn is already there + so our only "skinny" LB would be D Wash.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I mentioned earlier in this post that Horton likes his LBers to be interchangeable. To what degree is my question. Are Harrison and Woodley basically the same body type or are they truly a WOLB and SOLB respectively.

O'Brien played DE in College so hopefully he will be able to add some more weight and get to the 255 range. Quinn is already there + so our only "skinny" LB would be D Wash.

And he is, and probably will be, bigger than Timmons.

 

[kerouac9]

And he is, and probably will be, bigger than Timmons.

In what world?

Timmons is listed at 6'1", 234.
Daryl Washington is listed at 6'2", 230.

It's not about height; it's about stoutness. Daryl Washington has probably been told to put on weight his entire collegiate career and through his first year as a pro. There's little prospect that outside the confines of an NFL-quality strength and conditioning program that Washington will suddenly put on 5-10 lbs of "good weight" this offseason.

If the Cards wanted to become a smaller, one-gap 3-4 defense, they should've hired a coach that runs that system. IMO, we're going to see a race between how long Ken Whisenhunt can keep his job and how quickly we can replace almost all of our Front 7 defensive personnel (probably outside Campbell [2012 free agent!] and Dan Williams) to conform to the needs of the defensive staff.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

In what world?

Timmons is listed at 6'1", 234.
Daryl Washington is listed at 6'2", 230.

It's not about height; it's about stoutness. Daryl Washington has probably been told to put on weight his entire collegiate career and through his first year as a pro. There's little prospect that outside the confines of an NFL-quality strength and conditioning program that Washington will suddenly put on 5-10 lbs of "good weight" this offseason.

If the Cards wanted to become a smaller, one-gap 3-4 defense, they should've hired a coach that runs that system. IMO, we're going to see a race between how long Ken Whisenhunt can keep his job and how quickly we can replace almost all of our Front 7 defensive personnel (probably outside Campbell [2012 free agent!] and Dan Williams) to conform to the needs of the defensive staff.

In what world?

The height and weight you've just given us... virtually the same.

Timmons is listed at 6'1", 234.
Daryl Washington is listed at 6'2", 230.

Programs to gain strength and weight are not confined to NFL weight rooms, as I'm sure you'd concede.

And, Horton is his interviews, said he would design a defence based on the strengths of the available personnel; so not a pure set piece Pittsburgh "D".

Are we to understand that because Dockett weighs 290 and not 300, like Campbell, he can't hold up on the outside?

 

[kerouac9]

In what world?

The height and weight you've just given us... virtually the same.

Timmons is listed at 6'1", 234.
Daryl Washington is listed at 6'2", 230.

Programs to gain strength and weight are not confined to NFL weight rooms, as I'm sure you'd concede.

And, Horton is his interviews, said he would design a defence based on the strengths of the available personnel; so not a pure set piece Pittsburgh "D".

Are we to understand that because Dockett weighs 290 and not 300, like Campbell, he can't hold up on the outside?

So now it's "virtually the same" instead of "is and will be bigger"?

You know as well as I do, CC, that one inch less in height and 4 lbs in weight is a big difference at the NFL level. As for "programs to gain strength and weight," you don't respond to my argument that Washington has likely been told to gain weight throughout his college and early pro career. Washington would've been a late-first round draft pick if he'd been 240 lbs at the speed that he shows. He wanted to show up at training camp at 235 after he was drafted, and didn't make that goal. Again, what in the world makes you think that he can suddenly do this on his own.

Defensive Coordinators always say the same thing: They'll be more aggressive than the last guy, and they'll suit their system to the players. How well did Ken Whisenhunt suit his system to the talent last year? Actions speak louder than words to me. The Steelers' 3-4 defense is based on certain principles, and one of those principles is that your ends have to occupy one or two blockers to clear the way for linebackers to get to the ball. What does Darnell Dockett do best? Use his quickness to get between the gaps in the offensive line on his way to the quarterback. This is against the foundational principles of the two-gap line play of the Steelers' 3-4. DL don't need to defeat their blocks to "win" in that system.

And, yes, we have problems holding up on the outside when Darnell Dockett is in the game. Because he is small. It was the same when he was inside at tackle in our 4-3.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So now it's "virtually the same" instead of "is and will be bigger"?

You know as well as I do, CC, that one inch less in height and 4 lbs in weight is a big difference at the NFL level. As for "programs to gain strength and weight," you don't respond to my argument that Washington has likely been told to gain weight throughout his college and early pro career. Washington would've been a late-first round draft pick if he'd been 240 lbs at the speed that he shows. He wanted to show up at training camp at 235 after he was drafted, and didn't make that goal. Again, what in the world makes you think that he can suddenly do this on his own.

Defensive Coordinators always say the same thing: They'll be more aggressive than the last guy, and they'll suit their system to the players. How well did Ken Whisenhunt suit his system to the talent last year? Actions speak louder than words to me. The Steelers' 3-4 defense is based on certain principles, and one of those principles is that your ends have to occupy one or two blockers to clear the way for linebackers to get to the ball. What does Darnell Dockett do best? Use his quickness to get between the gaps in the offensive line on his way to the quarterback. This is against the foundational principles of the two-gap line play of the Steelers' 3-4. DL don't need to defeat their blocks to "win" in that system.

And, yes, we have problems holding up on the outside when Darnell Dockett is in the game. Because he is small. It was the same when he was inside at tackle in our 4-3.

I feel no need to respond to your hypothetical about what Washington has been asked to do in this and other offseasons. I'll wait for the weigh-in at camp to see what he's actually done to gain weight and strength. I'm sure that whatever he does won't meet your exacting criteria.

If actions speak louder than words, as you say, then wait for the "action"!

 

[Cards Czar]

I mentioned earlier in this post that Horton likes his LBers to be interchangeable. To what degree is my question. Are Harrison and Woodley basically the same body type or are they truly a WOLB and SOLB respectively.

O'Brien played DE in College so hopefully he will be able to add some more weight and get to the 255 range. Quinn is already there + so our only "skinny" LB would be D Wash.

I read on Cardschatter a few days ago that O'Brien is up to 254lbs.

 

[Cardiac]

I read on Cardschatter a few days ago that O'Brien is up to 254lbs.

I hope D Wash is going to the same personel trainer/nutrionist.

If O'Brien can still add good weight then maybe he could be our SOLB and Von's perceived lack of weight won't be an issue.

 

[juza76]

I read on Cardschatter a few days ago that O'Brien is up to 254lbs.

where did you read it???

 

[kerouac9]

I read on Cardschatter a few days ago that O'Brien is up to 254lbs.

There's no way for him to know that because Cards employees are disallowed from communicating with players in every way. Urban probably said that he played at 254 in college and wanted to come in this year at 250.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

In what world?

Timmons is listed at 6'1", 234.
Daryl Washington is listed at 6'2", 230.

It's not about height; it's about stoutness. Daryl Washington has probably been told to put on weight his entire collegiate career and through his first year as a pro. There's little prospect that outside the confines of an NFL-quality strength and conditioning program that Washington will suddenly put on 5-10 lbs of "good weight" this offseason.

If the Cards wanted to become a smaller, one-gap 3-4 defense, they should've hired a coach that runs that system. IMO, we're going to see a race between how long Ken Whisenhunt can keep his job and how quickly we can replace almost all of our Front 7 defensive personnel (probably outside Campbell [2012 free agent!] and Dan Williams) to conform to the needs of the defensive staff.

Tyron Smith played at 285 at USC this past season and has put on 25 pounds of good weight, did you see him at his pro day ? I know he's bigger but that's still 25 pounds compared to 10. Of course, Smith may be on the Clay Matthews/Brian Cushing workout plan to put on that much that quickly and seem to not lose a thing speed and athelicism-wise.