Ryan McDonough New GM

[Errntknght]

I know you're really falling in love with your stat site, but you'd rather have Dieng than Love? Give me a break. He has zero offensive game, with the sample size its hard to tell anything about his defense, and if you do want to assume his production would not drop off with more minutes (unlikely) then you also need to factor in that at the rate he fouls he would be out of the game by half time.

Also worth noting, in terms of how his team performs with him in the game only Shabazz has a lower rating this year than Dieng.

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314MIN.HTM

Granted that also is a really really tiny sample size, but thats the point. Its way too soon to proclaim Dieng is worth anything. He is an exceptionally "raw" rookie that is also about to turn 24. Not saying 24 is old, but for a rookie... its old (he is only 16 months younger than Love!). Stephen Hunter and Lauren Woods could also block shots, but they still stunk. I think Dieng is more likely to go down their path than one to glory.

Taking into account what they'd cost us, yes, I'd rather have Dieng. I don't believe that you can compete in the playoffs with a defensive sieve in the paint like Love taking up a quarter+ of your cap space. I realize there is considerable risk with Dieng but the cost of finding out how well he can do in the league is minimal.

If he proves to be the defensive stopper his stats hint at, it improves the whole team's defense - our guards can be much more aggressive if they don't have to live in fear their men getting by them into the paint. With he and Plumlee on the team Hornacek could implement a defense that 'funnels' the driving perimeter players into the our shotblocker - which is not an option now.

You're quite right, I'm falling in love with the tracking stats, particularly the 'defensive impact'. Up till now there were essentially no worthwhile defensive stats available so it took hours of viewing and sustained attention to one guy to get any kind of a handle on his defense - except for someone like Hibbert who has a tremendous reputation and it doesn't take a lot of watching to see its deserved. It's not perfect by any means since, for example, a guy could block a ton of shots and keep the other guys he contests from scoring often but still constantly leaving the door open for someone else to score easily - the Steven Hunter syndrome. (That's not really fair as Steven was a pretty good all round defender despite his forays far from the basket in quest of a block.)

It was awfully nice though, after watching Goodwin defend for a few games and deciding that he was pretty good at it, to have the site confirm it statistically. The watching was important because from that I learned that his blocks came against the guys he was defending - not from roaming about randomly swatting at balls.

 

[Errntknght]

What's LaMarcus Alridge, Blake Griffin, Dirk, Bosh, Greg Monroe, and David Lee's defensive numbers?

And Al Horford too. If we're gonna trade for anyone in the NBA, I would prefer it to be Horford even though he is a bit older for a rebuilding team's taste.

I'll look at that site later and let you know... now I got to go out dancing!

 

[JustWinBaby]

Taking into account what they'd cost us, yes, I'd rather have Dieng. I don't believe that you can compete in the playoffs with a defensive sieve in the paint like Love taking up a quarter+ of your cap space. I realize there is considerable risk with Dieng but the cost of finding out how well he can do in the league is minimal.

If he proves to be the defensive stopper his stats hint at, it improves the whole team's defense - our guards can be much more aggressive if they don't have to live in fear their men getting by them into the paint. With he and Plumlee on the team Hornacek could implement a defense that 'funnels' the driving perimeter players into the our shotblocker - which is not an option now.

You're quite right, I'm falling in love with the tracking stats, particularly the 'defensive impact'. Up till now there were essentially no worthwhile defensive stats available so it took hours of viewing and sustained attention to one guy to get any kind of a handle on his defense - except for someone like Hibbert who has a tremendous reputation and it doesn't take a lot of watching to see its deserved. It's not perfect by any means since, for example, a guy could block a ton of shots and keep the other guys he contests from scoring often but still constantly leaving the door open for someone else to score easily - the Steven Hunter syndrome. (That's not really fair as Steven was a pretty good all round defender despite his forays far from the basket in quest of a block.)

It was awfully nice though, after watching Goodwin defend for a few games and deciding that he was pretty good at it, to have the site confirm it statistically. The watching was important because from that I learned that his blocks came against the guys he was defending - not from roaming about randomly swatting at balls.

I am in your corner on not wanting Kevin Love with this group. I do not think he is what this group needs. I know I am in the minority, so be it. I think he costs too much and is not athletic enough or a good enough defender to be a good fit with the direction we are headed.

When I lived in the Bay Area back in the 70's I had the privilege of watching the Golden State Warriors win a Championship with Clifford Ray and George Johnson sharing minutes at center. Neither of them could shoot a lick but got virtually all of their points in the paint. They averaged 13.8 points and 17.6 rebounds between them, while using every foul at their disposal to stop anyone trying to make a layup.

I see our team heading in that direction. We have a good start with the addition of Plumlee this off season and maybe Len can turn into a legit big guy to complement him down the road. I would love to have someone with Dieng's potential on the roster now or in the future.

What the Golden State team also had were two of the most dynamic scorers ever in Jamall Wilkes and Rick Barry. They really did not have a legit PF. The had great guards and just ran the other teams out of the building. With Goran and Bledsoe leading the way I see that is the direction we are headed. Athleticism and defense I expect will be required of any addition. Isn't that how the Heat won the past 2 Championships? Their weak link has been Chris Bosh IMO.

This is why I really believe we will be looking to add someone like Danny Granger. We could really use a dynamic scoring wing that can play defense. If Gerald Green could become consistent we could already have him on the team. He is as athletic as they get. In spurts he is very good.

I really like our roster and really hope we don't trade a bunch of these guys for one player. Unless that guy is named Lebron James or Kevin Durant.

It will be interesting to se what we do, if anything.

 

[95pro]

I am in your corner on not wanting Kevin Love with this group. I do not think he is what this group needs. I know I am in the minority, so be it. I think he costs too much and is not athletic enough or a good enough defender to be a good fit with the direction we are headed.

When I lived in the Bay Area back in the 70's I had the privilege of watching the Golden State Warriors win a Championship with Clifford Ray and George Johnson sharing minutes at center. Neither of them could shoot a lick but got virtually all of their points in the paint. They averaged 13.8 points and 17.6 rebounds between them, while using every foul at their disposal to stop anyone trying to make a layup.

I see our team heading in that direction. We have a good start with the addition of Plumlee this off season and maybe Len can turn into a legit big guy to complement him down the road. I would love to have someone with Dieng's potential on the roster now or in the future.

What the Golden State team also had were two of the most dynamic scorers ever in Jamall Wilkes and Rick Barry. They really did not have a legit PF. The had great guards and just ran the other teams out of the building. With Goran and Bledsoe leading the way I see that is the direction we are headed. Athleticism and defense I expect will be required of any addition. Isn't that how the Heat won the past 2 Championships? Their weak link has been Chris Bosh IMO.

This is why I really believe we will be looking to add someone like Danny Granger. We could really use a dynamic scoring wing that can play defense. If Gerald Green could become consistent we could already have him on the team. He is as athletic as they get. In spurts he is very good.

I really like our roster and really hope we don't trade a bunch of these guys for one player. Unless that guy is named Lebron James or Kevin Durant.

It will be interesting to se what we do, if anything.

Nice post IMO. I'm also think we don't need Love. What we need is a star/all star forward. I like the idea of having granger on this team. He's a bit older but a suns training staff and new location could have him reborn.

 

[Chaplin]

Nice post IMO. I'm also think we don't need Love. What we need is a star/all star forward. I like the idea of having granger on this team. He's a bit older but a suns training staff and new location could have him reborn.

Kevin Love IS a star/allstar forward! Along with Aldridge, the best in the league.

Granger hasn't been significant in years.

 

[Errntknght]

The stats sunsfan88 asked to see.

The three numbers for each guy are FGM/FGA (%) opponent at rim, FGA/game, total blocks. I didn't list the minutes played as its in the neighborhood of 30 minutes for all of them.

First some guys you know are good defenders:

Roy Hibbert 40.5 9.6 69
Anthony Davis 41.8 5.7 58
Tim Duncan 43.2 7.4 36
Kendrick Perkins 33.3 2.5 11
Joakim Noah 43.4 6.8 25
Dwight Howard 46.1 9.6 43

The guys you asked about:

Greg Monroe 46.2 7.2 15
Al Horford 46.7 6.3 36
LaMarcus Aldridge 50.0 7.7 20
David Lee 50.0 6.2 8
Dirk Nowitzki 50.3 6.5 17
Blake Griffin 53.9 6.1 18
Chris Bosh 54.5 6.6 25

Others I spotted while searching:

Brook Lopez 39.7 9.1 29
Robin Lopez 43.5 10.5 38
Victor Oladipo 42.6 2.3 19
Amir Johnson 44.6 7.0 24

Link to site: NBA Stats - Player Tracking Defensive Impact

 

[slinslin]

I'm not a fan of having big men who are terrible on defense(especially after the Amare days and watching players take turns scoring on him) but Love is such a good rebounder and can score efficiently from anywhere on the outside, I think he may just be worth it.

Not only was Amare a better scorer he was a better defender and you are full of ... as usual. Drama Queen.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah, no kidding. I am not even a huge fan of Love, and if I were a GM, I would do that trade (even add two first rounders) in a heartbeat.

Hell no. Even without the first rounders I doubt that trade would even make us better. The twins are a significant reason for our success.

Losing both of them to replace Frye with Love who has never been on a winning team in his career is extremely risky. Throwing in picks on top of it makes it stupid. Even worse than Love being able to leave in free agency soon after.

 

[slinslin]

I would like to see us target John Henson. Milwaukee might have him off limits for all I know, but I would at least look into what it might take to get him. Makes me sick that we passed on him for Kendall Marshall...

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Not trading up for Drummond when he dropped to #8 or so is much worse than that.

 

[slinslin]

Regarding Love's health, if you take out last year, he's averaged 67 games a year. Not great, but far from awful. With the Suns training staff perhaps that ticks up a bit.

yeah see Alex Len..

I always find the arguments about not being a winner, or leading a winning team a bit hallow. Basketball is a team sport, if you've got turds around you, there's not much you can do. For instance, in the 5 seasons in Philly before Barkley came to the Suns, the Sixers averaged a mediocre 42.8 wins a year. Did that mean Barkley wasn't a winner?

43 wins per year is a lot different than Love's teams averaging 20 wins a year.

Would the T-Wolves consider something like this?

Minny sends:
Kevin Love
JJ Barea
Shabazz Mohammed

Phoenix sends:
Channing Frye
Mc. Morris
Mk. Morris
E. Okafor
Minnesota's 1st rounder
one more 2014 first rounder, whichever one is highest.

That is bad and I doubt the Suns want to go back to tanking this year right now when they are 14-9 which they would be in this case losing 3 major contributors.

 

[Phrazbit]

T'Wolves are 21-20 during Love's last 41 games. And thats despite having no bench, a mess of injuries, questionable coaching and a gaggle of terrible shooters. The idea that you cant "win" with Love is merely a reaction to the complete disaster their management has been during the last 5 years. You cant win with a bunch of absolute garbage and one or two good players.

As I said earlier, other than a broken hand, which he came back too fast from, his health history is clean.

As for him being a worse defender than Amare? Thats impossible, you cant be worse than the worst.

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[sunsfan88]

Not only was Amare a better scorer he was a better defender and you are full of ... as usual. Drama Queen.

How was Amare a flat out better scorer than Love? Both are averaging 25 PPG in the peak of their careers and Amare did it with Nash while Love is doing it with Rubio. I would probably still give the nod to Amare in terms of scoring but it's close and easy to argue either way. And same thing about their defense. Love at least puts way more effort into it than Amare.

Why don't you go on the Wizards forum and tell them about how Gortat is awful and tell them about how draft picks are the most important thing in the world. Those are still your philosophies, correct?

 

[sunsfan88]

The stats sunsfan88 asked to see.

The three numbers for each guy are FGM/FGA (%) opponent at rim, FGA/game, total blocks. I didn't list the minutes played as its in the neighborhood of 30 minutes for all of them.

First some guys you know are good defenders:

Roy Hibbert 40.5 9.6 69
Anthony Davis 41.8 5.7 58
Tim Duncan 43.2 7.4 36
Kendrick Perkins 33.3 2.5 11
Joakim Noah 43.4 6.8 25
Dwight Howard 46.1 9.6 43

The guys you asked about:

Greg Monroe 46.2 7.2 15
Al Horford 46.7 6.3 36
LaMarcus Aldridge 50.0 7.7 20
David Lee 50.0 6.2 8
Dirk Nowitzki 50.3 6.5 17
Blake Griffin 53.9 6.1 18
Chris Bosh 54.5 6.6 25

Others I spotted while searching:

Brook Lopez 39.7 9.1 29
Robin Lopez 43.5 10.5 38
Victor Oladipo 42.6 2.3 19
Amir Johnson 44.6 7.0 24

Link to site: NBA Stats - Player Tracking Defensive Impact

Interesting. Brook Lopez has come a very long way. And I love Amir Johnson as well as Horford.

So 10% difference between LMA and Love's defensive opp FG %. Huh...

Thanks for posting. Hope your dance went well!

 

[Chaplin]

Hell no. Even without the first rounders I doubt that trade would even make us better. The twins are a significant reason for our success.

Losing both of them to replace Frye with Love who has never been on a winning team in his career is extremely risky. Throwing in picks on top of it makes it stupid. Even worse than Love being able to leave in free agency soon after.

Hahahahaha. Classic slinslin. Twins are "significant"? And you'd rather have them than Kevin Love? What's the water like there in Germany?

 

[Sunburn]

Most important question to me with regards to bringing a player in, how's his defense? It's 50% of the game, yet not given nearly as much focus as the offensive end by most players.

 

[Sunburn]

You're not winning a championship if your highest paid player only plays one end of the court. (See Carmello Anthony/Amare Stoudemire)

 

[sunsfan88]

You're not winning a championship if your highest paid player only plays one end of the court. (See Carmello Anthony/Amare Stoudemire)

Someone should have told Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki this.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Someone should have told Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki this.

If memory serves me right. Steve Nash is still ringless.

Dirk would also be ringless without Tyson Chandler.

Put Chandler on the Heat and they would have a 3 peat.

Who were those centers on those Bulls teams that won 6 rings?

How many MVP's do they have in their trophy case?

How many rings would Jordan have without them doing their job?

How well have the Mav's won since they let Chandler go packing?

Quite frankly I would love a Plumlee / Chandler rotation at the 5 for this team.

That could be a great solution until Len grows up and gets healthy.

That might be enough to make us extremely dangerous come the playoffs.

The love affair with KLove is understandable. His Stats are off the charts in certain areas. I just do not like him for our team.

 

[BC867]

If memory serves me right. Steve Nash is still ringless.

Dirk would also be ringless without Tyson Chandler.

I was about to make the same point, so I'll second that emotion.

Without Tyson Chandler at Center, the Mavs (like the Suns and Jazz) are a perpetual 50-and-fade team at best.

Ryan McDonough and Jeff Hornacek are the best hope I've seen for the Suns to finally rise above that.

 

[sunsfan88]

If memory serves me right. Steve Nash is still ringless.

Dirk would also be ringless without Tyson Chandler.

.

That doesn't matter. The comment was that you can't win a ring if your highest paid player doesn't play both ends of the court. Dirk was the highest paid player.

Truth is that if you have players on the team who can cover the weakness of a player who plays significantly well on one end of the court, then you can definitely win a ring.

Mavs had that in Chandler and we had that in Raja Bell and Shawn Marion who covered up Nash's weaknesses. If anyone thinks that the main reason Nash never won a ring is because he sucked on defense then they don't know anything about basketball.

 

[Errntknght]

Suns numbers from the tracking site. The numbers in parentheses are games played and minutes. The other three numbers are the same as for the other players I listed 1) opponents FG% at the rim, 2) opps FGA at the rim per game, and 3) total blocks. They are ordered by ascending FG%.

Len ( 4, 31) 16.7 1.5 2
Bledsoe (17, 589) 31.0 2.5 5
Goodwin (22, 234) 31.8 1.0 7
Kravtsov (10, 32) 33.3 0.6 0
Plumlee (23, 642) 46.5 10.0 45
Morris, Mc (23, 528) 48.2 3.6 6
Frye (23, 628) 50.3 6.7 18
Green (23, 616) 54.2 2.6 11
Dragic (20, 700) 56.8 2.2 6
Tucker (23, 724) 57.1 1.8 5
Morris,Mk (22, 567) 57.1 5.1 6
Smith (13, 158) 60.0 0.8 3
Christmas (13, 96) 71.4 0.4 0

Interesting that Tucker doesn't look good on this metric even though he is a terrific defender. I think the key in his case that the opps only have 1.8 FGA/game against him at the rim - even though he usually guards their best offensive backcourt/SF player.

 

[elindholm]

Suns numbers from the tracking site. The numbers in parentheses are games played and minutes. The other three numbers are the same as for the other players I listed 1) opponents FG% at the rim, 2) opps FGA at the rim per game, and 3) total blocks. They are ordered by ascending FG%.

Does the site factor in the number of times a defender commits a foul at the rim? If some defenders foul more than others, that could really skew the FG%, as well as cast a different light on their differing levels of interior defense.

 

[slinslin]

Hahahahaha. Classic slinslin. Twins are "significant"? And you'd rather have them than Kevin Love? What's the water like there in Germany?

You are either blind or ignorant or both if you think the Twins are not a major reason why the Suns are as surprisingly good as they are right now.

We have one of the best benches in the NBA right now and the main reason are the twins and Green.

Markieff Morris is 4th in PER among all bench players trailing only Isaiah Thomas, Ginobili and Blatche.
Marcus Morris is 6th in PER among all bench players trailing the above and DeJuan Blair.

They are adding combined about 24/11 off of the bench in barely over 20 minutes per game.

 

[Sunburn]

We have one of the best benches in the NBA right now and the main reason are the twins and Green.

Why Green? He's struggled since joining the second unit.

 

[sunsfan88]

You are either blind or ignorant or both if you think the Twins are not a major reason why the Suns are as surprisingly good as they are right now.

We have one of the best benches in the NBA right now and the main reason are the twins and Green.

Markieff Morris is 4th in PER among all bench players trailing only Isaiah Thomas, Ginobili and Blatche.
Marcus Morris is 6th in PER among all bench players trailing the above and DeJuan Blair.

They are adding combined about 24/11 off of the bench in barely over 20 minutes per game.

What the hell does that have to do with not trading the twins for Love?

Do you want to me to find a bunch of advanced stats that I can manipulate to make it seem like Love is the best player in the NBA?

You are either blind or ignorant or both if you think that the twins, as well as they have played, have more value than Kevin Love.