Ryan Williams is this year's 2nd round pick.

[Phrazbit]

Could you direct me to reputable reports that no team other than the Cards had an interest in acquiring Kolb?

Well, from the moment Tavaris signed in Seattle who was left among the "repuatably reported" suitors?

There were rumors from months back but once the opportunity to trade became available the only team that materialized was Arizona, everyone else had either drafted a QB or quickly addressed their need in free agency, meanwhile the Cards dragged talks on with the Eagles for nearly a week while no one else but AZ was still in the QB market. If you can name a team who was supposedly interested at that point I'd love to hear it.

 

[Stout]

At least you finally admitted it. The fact is, as of now, no one got fleeced in either direction because all players have performed at far lower levels that expected. Right now it's a nothing trade. You keep basing your argument on your perceived value and not actual performance value. To use you earlier analogy, I would absolutely make the trade every time if i KNEW the 7th round pick would out perform the 1st round pick. Why wouldn't I? The point is the perceived value of the 1st pick is greater because we don't know how it will turn out and it's more LIKELY the 1st player is better.

Well, that's just not true. Okay, the players are all sucking, but we're out a 2nd round pick in a draft where there were a ton of good players in the 2nd. We're also out far more money and wasted time as a team invested in a bad player. DRC wasn't a starter and isn't a QB.

 

[WildBB]

Well, that's just not true. Okay, the players are all sucking, but we're out a 2nd round pick in a draft where there were a ton of good PROSPECTS in the 2nd. We're also out far more money and wasted time as a team invested in a bad player. DRC wasn't a starter and isn't a QB.

fify.

 

[WildBB]

So much negativity.

I can't believe people are still crying about the pick. Whether it works out or not the fact that the Cards were proactive and tried to get a DECENT UNPROVEN QB in here is much more important than a draft pick.

fify.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Well, from the moment Tavaris signed in Seattle who was left among the "repuatably reported" suitors?

There were rumors from months back but once the opportunity to trade became available the only team that materialized was Arizona, everyone else had either drafted a QB or quickly addressed their need in free agency, meanwhile the Cards dragged talks on with the Eagles for nearly a week while no one else but AZ was still in the QB market. If you can name a team who was supposedly interested at that point I'd love to hear it.

I don't know who was interested or not and evidently you don't either, but, yet, assert that AZ was bidding against itself. Rumours + $2.00 will buy a cup of coffee.

 

[Stout]

I don't know who was interested or not and evidently you don't either, but, yet, assert that AZ was bidding against itself. Rumours + $2.00 will buy a cup of coffee.

So, since something is fairly obvious to not just fans but the experts that have talked about it since the trade, no one is allowed to say anything because they can't prove the unprovable. Nice.

 

[TJ]

So, since something is fairly obvious to not just fans but the experts that have talked about it since the trade, no one is allowed to say anything because they can't prove the unprovable. Nice.

Actually, after the lockout ended, Pat Kirwan on Sirius reported that there were a couple of teams in the running for Kolb after the lockout ended, including the Seahawks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PortlandCardFan]

Here's to RW being at 100% and splitting carries with CW (I hate the name 'beanie')!!!

Mayhaps two 1000 yrd rushers?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So, since something is fairly obvious to not just fans but the experts that have talked about it since the trade, no one is allowed to say anything because they can't prove the unprovable. Nice.

Talk about it all you like, just don't pass off gossip as gospel.

 

[cardncubfan]

I thought this thread was about Ryan Williams not the KK trade.

 

[chickenhead]

We have overpaid for Kob until he proves otherwise. But even though other interested parties and what they paid is an unknown, given the number of teams attempting to address their QB situation through FA and the draft both last year and this year--including Seattle both times--I just assume that there would have been other parties.

Giving up DRC does not bother me incredibly in itself, because presumably Horton was okay with it and is rebuilding personnel in that department. The pick is the great hypothetical. If we had it, we certainly would have been able to use it, and get value for it. Needlessly trading the pick (if true) is the only thing I would truly have a beef with.

Based on last year's performance, we clearly could have gotten as much or more from Orton for less. But I wanted Kolb over Orton at the time, so I'll live with that.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

We have overpaid for Kob until he proves otherwise. But even though other interested parties and what they paid is an unknown, given the number of teams attempting to address their QB situation through FA and the draft both last year and this year--including Seattle both times--I just assume that there would have been other parties.

Giving up DRC does not bother me incredibly in itself, because presumably Horton was okay with it and is rebuilding personnel in that department. The pick is the great hypothetical. If we had it, we certainly would have been able to use it, and get value for it. Needlessly trading the pick (if true) is the only thing I would truly have a beef with.

Based on last year's performance, we clearly could have gotten as much or more from Orton for less. But I wanted Kolb over Orton at the time, so I'll live with that.

If Kolb had played out his contract in Philly and reached FA, we probably would have offered a king's ransom to get him after the latest 8-8 season.

 

[Russ Smith]

I thought this thread was about Ryan Williams not the KK trade.

What in the world gave you that idea?

 

[Stout]

Actually, after the lockout ended, Pat Kirwan on Sirius reported that there were a couple of teams in the running for Kolb after the lockout ended, including the Seahawks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

And then Seattle signed Jackson, and they were clearly out of the race. So we weren't bidding against them at that point.

Talk about it all you like, just don't pass off gossip as gospel.

It isn't gossip at all, but simple logic backed up by experts. You tell me what team was going to trade for Kolb at that point. The experts agreed that, with Jackson going to Seattle, we were the only needy suitor. It is not ridiculous or far-fetched at all to say we were only bidding against ourselves at that point. I'm sure you'll take your antagonistic stance again, saying we just can't know for sure, but it's pretty clear that we did know.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

And then Seattle signed Jackson, and they were clearly out of the race. So we weren't bidding against them at that point.



It isn't gossip at all, but simple logic backed up by experts. You tell me what team was going to trade for Kolb at that point. The experts agreed that, with Jackson going to Seattle, we were the only needy suitor. It is not ridiculous or far-fetched at all to say we were only bidding against ourselves at that point. I'm sure you'll take your antagonistic stance again, saying we just can't know for sure, but it's pretty clear that we did know.

So the Cards in full knowledge, due to simple logic backed up by experts, bid against themselves for Kolb's services....

This makes a lot of sense!

Sort of like someone selling a used car for $1000 and I kick the tires and say: "I'll tell you what, I'll give you $1500."

I'll grant that this is certainly "simple" logic.

And, of all people, you might refrain from suggesting antagonism by others.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I realize the horse has been beat to death... but even if Kolb miraculously becomes competent, healthy and consistent, it still doesn't change that the Cards got fleeced in the trade negotiations.

If the Cards end up with a competent, consistent QB, which was the purpose of the trade and contract, I can't see how they got fleeced. But, I get the impression, that short of a Super Bowl win and MVP award you'd persist in your view.

 

[Russ Smith]

If the Cards end up with a competent, consistent QB, which was the purpose of the trade and contract, I can't see how they got fleeced. But, I get the impression, that short of a Super Bowl win and MVP award you'd persist in your view.

I went through this with him during the season. I think his position is even if the Cards win a SB and Kolb is MVP it won't matter, he is convinced the Cards could have gotten Kolb for less money and giving up less in the trade(no 2nd rounder) so it doesn't matter how well Kolb plays, we overpaid for him. He sees there was a set market value. It's like buying a 300K house for 400k, you may LOVE the house, you may even sell it 10 years from now for a profit, but you still overpaid for the house based on the market.

In that sense I get what he's saying I just don't know how we can ever know with certainty that the Cards overpaid. It's impossible to know what the market was or how the market changed at the end. When Seattle signed Jackson did they do so because they knew Kolb was going to be a Card and it just took longer for the Kolb deal to be announced, or did they decide they didn't want Kolb? We can't possibly know.

I just hope he plays a lot better this year and can stay healthy.

 

[Stout]

So the Cards in full knowledge, due to simple logic backed up by experts, bid against themselves for Kolb's services....

This makes a lot of sense!

Sort of like someone selling a used car for $1000 and I kick the tires and say: "I'll tell you what, I'll give you $1500."

I'll grant that this is certainly "simple" logic.

And, of all people, you might refrain from suggesting antagonism by others.

Not really an admirable attempt at obfuscation, because it's so obvious. How about Philly took a hard line and we caved in? Sounds very plausible to me, especially seeing as though we were the only ones in such need of a QB.

And sure, I antagonize people all the time, through argument. I actually argue opinions and topics, while you simply naysay people quite a bit, telling them what they can and can't know, taking a blanket defense of the Cards position in almost all things, and such.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Not really an admirable attempt at obfuscation, because it's so obvious. How about Philly took a hard line and we caved in? Sounds very plausible to me, especially seeing as though we were the only ones in such need of a QB.

And sure, I antagonize people all the time, through argument. I actually argue opinions and topics, while you simply naysay people quite a bit, telling them what they can and can't know, taking a blanket defense of the Cards position in almost all things, and such.

Yes. How silly of me to suggest on occasion that there are things that we don't or can't possibly know, and therefore conclusions are unsound.

Russ' answer above covers it for me.

 

[Phrazbit]

Actually, after the lockout ended, Pat Kirwan on Sirius reported that there were a couple of teams in the running for Kolb after the lockout ended, including the Seahawks.

A couple equals two, Seattle and Arizona, and Seattle promptly signed Tavaris, leaving Arizona alone in the bidding.

If Kolb had played out his contract in Philly and reached FA, we probably would have offered a king's ransom to get him after the latest 8-8 season.

Maybe, but signing him as a free agent wouldnt have cost the Cards in trade value. And really, its hard to imagine him getting more on the open market than what he got. Flynn got far less as a free agent.

I went through this with him during the season. I think his position is even if the Cards win a SB and Kolb is MVP it won't matter, he is convinced the Cards could have gotten Kolb for less money and giving up less in the trade(no 2nd rounder) so it doesn't matter how well Kolb plays, we overpaid for him. He sees there was a set market value. It's like buying a 300K house for 400k, you may LOVE the house, you may even sell it 10 years from now for a profit, but you still overpaid for the house based on the market.

Thank you, this is exactly my point.

I am talking about value at the time of the trade being consummated, not his value now or in the future. The Cards paid a high price for something without much market value and from a very motivated seller.

Teams get out maneuvered and bluffed in trades all the time. Andy Ried has done it to THREE teams now just in QB trades, its not all that stunning to think it happened to Rod Graves.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I went through this with him during the season. I think his position is even if the Cards win a SB and Kolb is MVP it won't matter, he is convinced the Cards could have gotten Kolb for less money and giving up less in the trade(no 2nd rounder) so it doesn't matter how well Kolb plays, we overpaid for him. He sees there was a set market value. It's like buying a 300K house for 400k, you may LOVE the house, you may even sell it 10 years from now for a profit, but you still overpaid for the house based on the market.

In that sense I get what he's saying I just don't know how we can ever know with certainty that the Cards overpaid. It's impossible to know what the market was or how the market changed at the end. When Seattle signed Jackson did they do so because they knew Kolb was going to be a Card and it just took longer for the Kolb deal to be announced, or did they decide they didn't want Kolb? We can't possibly know.

I just hope he plays a lot better this year and can stay healthy.

On the other hand, Phrazbit, or any of us, don't know what the market value actually was. Let's use that analysis with this year's draft. The universal opinion is that Bruce Irvin could have been had in the 2nd round, or later. If he goes on to be a 10 sack a year player, did Seattle overpay by taking him that early? Seattle felt he was worth that price, just like the Cards felt Kolb was worth that price. As with Kolb, if Irvin busts, Seattle will be ripped for taking him that early. That doesn't mean it was wrong. They felt he was worth it. If Philly didn't get a fair offer they would have just kept him as the backup in 2011 and may have made the playoffs instead of having to throw Kafka and Vince Young out there.

 

[Russ Smith]

On the other hand, Phrazbit, or any of us, don't know what the market value actually was. Let's use that analysis with this year's draft. The universal opinion is that Bruce Irvin could have been had in the 2nd round, or later. If he goes on to be a 10 sack a year player, did Seattle overpay by taking him that early? Seattle felt he was worth that price, just like the Cards felt Kolb was worth that price. As with Kolb, if Irvin busts, Seattle will be ripped for taking him that early. That doesn't mean it was wrong. They felt he was worth it. If Philly didn't get a fair offer they would have just kept him as the backup in 2011 and may have made the playoffs instead of having to throw Kafka and Vince Young out there.

Right that's my poiint, I get his point I just can't agree because unless he's an NFL GM he can't possibly know what the real market value was for Kolb or any other player.

I do agree overpaying is overpaying, I just don't think it's possible to know what market really was for Kolb. Especially for a QB you just never know.

 

[Phrazbit]

Right that's my poiint, I get his point I just can't agree because unless he's an NFL GM he can't possibly know what the real market value was for Kolb or any other player.

I do agree overpaying is overpaying, I just don't think it's possible to know what market really was for Kolb. Especially for a QB you just never know.

I see what you're saying too, and I think in most situations its hard to quantify the market for a player but in that situation where you KNOW a player is on the block and you know who has and who has not filled their needs, I think it was pretty easy to look around the league and realize the Cardinals were the only team in the bidding.