Saturday Morning Raisin Bran: Raisin' Arizona

[Krangodnzr]

IMO we'll see a bounce back to Pro Bowl or near Pro Bowl level from DRC this year. I think our defense will be overall improved since I also expect Campbell to step it up a bit more and for Wilson to play better. Add in more PT for Schofield, Dan Williams, and Peterson joining the team, and I think our defense should be able to jump up quite a bit.

Granted, this team will never have a great run defense with Darnell Dockett playing one of the end positions...

 

[kerouac9]

That's a very good point, and likely a reason that we will not sign Manny Lawson.

The more I look at it, the more I think we are not going to add any OLBs once free agency starts. First off, most will be very expensive and I don't think we're going to spend much. Secondly, I think the coaching staff thinks they can get more out Porter/Haggans.

Last year's precipitous fall off in production from Porter could have been a scheme issue/overuse issue. The past two seasons, Porter had 26 sacks, so there is a good chance that Porter could bounce back to at least the production he had in his last season with Miami. Schofield is the wildcard; he'll be further removed from his ACL tear and should start to get some of his burst back by now.

Haggans isn't much of a pass rusher, but he does a lot of the little things well. IMO he's still a solid football player, and if Acho is an improvement over Will Davis then I think we'll be ok over on the strongside.

Porter wasn't any better early in the season than he was late. He collected a lot of garbage sacks created by other players the last two years in Miami. He doesn't have ANYTHING left in the tank, and that was clear by the Oakland game.

O'Brien Schofield cannot develop quickly enough.

 

[DoTheDew]

Mitch, you keep insisting we trade DRC and sign Ike Taylor. Why not keep DRC and use the money spent on Ike Taylor to sign the best pass rusher we can get?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Porter wasn't any better early in the season than he was late. He collected a lot of garbage sacks created by other players the last two years in Miami. He doesn't have ANYTHING left in the tank, and that was clear by the Oakland game.

O'Brien Schofield cannot develop quickly enough.

Garbage sacks are better than no sacks.

IF he collects 9 sacks, 7 of them garbage, that will mean that coverage has improved. But your probably right, I'm most likely being too optimistic.

 

[kerouac9]

Garbage sacks are better than no sacks.

IF he collects 9 sacks, 7 of them garbage, that will mean that coverage has improved. But your probably right, I'm most likely being too optimistic.

You talked about Bertrand Berry earlier in this thread. To my eyes, Joey Porter was significantly less productive than Bertrand Berry. Berry was at least a C-minus against the run and a C-plus against the pass. Porter was an F-minus against a run and a D-plus against the pass. He was horrible. I have no idea what use the front office is going to see in the 2011 edition of Joey Porter, unless he plays special teams.

The worst thing we can do is what we did in the preseason with Cody Brown: Put O'Brien Schofield in on run downs and pull him for Joey Porter in passing situations.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You talked about Bertrand Berry earlier in this thread. To my eyes, Joey Porter was significantly less productive than Bertrand Berry. Berry was at least a C-minus against the run and a C-plus against the pass. Porter was an F-minus against a run and a D-plus against the pass. He was horrible. I have no idea what use the front office is going to see in the 2011 edition of Joey Porter, unless he plays special teams.

It's funny but we treated the two players totally different: Berry's snaps were extremely limited which is why he only had 10 total tackles, but 6 sacks. He was fresh to rush the passer on third downs, and even though he didn't create a ton of pressure he was a great finisher. He nearly always got a sack if he was in position.

Porter on the other hand played a ton of snaps. I know there wasn't a whole lot behind him, but damn he played too many snaps for an older player.

The worst thing we can do is what we did in the preseason with Cody Brown: Put O'Brien Schofield in on run downs and pull him for Joey Porter in passing situations.

I'm definitely with you here. I'm still not too sure that cutting Brown was the best choice. Even if he wasn't a world beater, he still would've had some value as a back up. He wasn't given much of a chance to develop.

 

[JeffGollin]

Every HC and GM wants to put his team in a position where there are no surprises - where he knows he's got the horses needed to get to the promised land. This unfortunately seldom happens. There are typically a few situations where you just have to grit your teeth, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

The Cardinals are no different.

It all boils down to hope that certain players will deliver for us. But we can't be 100% sure.

We're hoping that Schofield will develop into an elite pass rusher. (All we know to date is that he exceeded expectations coming back so quickly from the knee - but a quick rehab and pass rushing excellence aren't necessarily the same thing).

We hope that Brandon Keith will progress well past the level he was at when he was injured.

We hope that Hausler will become the receiving TE we expected when we drafted him.

The only position-of-need where we apparently will not rely so much on hope (& will do what's necessary to put fate in our own hands) is QB. And that comes with a big IF.

So what we'll do is try to plug as many leaks as possible with the best available veteran players worth the money and then play the percentages.

I'm sure hoping that Schofield turns out to be the real deal, but my concern is that he'll represent something closer to the financial commercial where they want this guy to put his retirement money in "a vineyard."

 

[kerouac9]

I'm definitely with you here. I'm still not too sure that cutting Brown was the best choice. Even if he wasn't a world beater, he still would've had some value as a back up. He wasn't given much of a chance to develop.

You've heard me say it before, but if Whis is fired during or after the 2012 season, 2010 will be the reason. You just can't continue to cut your young bodies and bring in players past their primes and continue to function in the league. You saw what happened to the Rams after they basically couldn't get anything out of their 2005(?) draft class.

Cody Brown, Herman Johnson, Trevor Canfield, Kenny Iwebema, Buster Davis, and Chris Harrington. Only two of those guys played more than one one regular season game for the team that drafted them. That's more than 10 percent of a regular season roster that we let go of without compensation and without benefit to the team. They were cut to be replaced with below-average or past-their-prime players.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Cody Brown, Herman Johnson, Trevor Canfield, Kenny Iwebema, Buster Davis, and Chris Harrington. Only two of those guys played more than one one regular season game for the team that drafted them. That's more than 10 percent of a regular season roster that we let go of without compensation and without benefit to the team. They were cut to be replaced with below-average or past-their-prime players.

Until any of these players does anything, I'll view it as more of a drafting problem than a personnel decision issue.

 

[bg7brd]

You've heard me say it before, but if Whis is fired during or after the 2012 season, 2010 will be the reason. You just can't continue to cut your young bodies and bring in players past their primes and continue to function in the league. You saw what happened to the Rams after they basically couldn't get anything out of their 2005(?) draft class.

Cody Brown, Herman Johnson, Trevor Canfield, Kenny Iwebema, Buster Davis, and Chris Harrington. Only two of those guys played more than one one regular season game for the team that drafted them. That's more than 10 percent of a regular season roster that we let go of without compensation and without benefit to the team. They were cut to be replaced with below-average or past-their-prime players.

Johnson, Canfield, and Harrington were plucked off the practice squad.

 

[Duckjake]

Until any of these players does anything, I'll view it as more of a drafting problem than a personnel decision issue.

Except that the older guys aren't doing anything either.

Warner,Boldin,Rolle,Dansby,Berry and Okeafor. (34 years experience just with Arizona) Few if any teams can lose that many veteran players in one off season and expect to keep winning. No matter who you bring in as replacements it takes time for the new guys to adjust.

So maybe the Cards just need to sit tight for a year and let the guys we have take advantage of the year they spent playing together instead of doing a second consecutive major roster overhaul.

 

[kerouac9]

Until any of these players does anything, I'll view it as more of a drafting problem than a personnel decision issue.

Brandon Johnson has turned into a very good special teams player and 4th LB in Cincy. Chris Harrington has been a special teams player for the Bengals and Tiatns. Canfield has spent time on the rosters of the Seahawks and Lions. These guys could be competing for jobs with us, but instead we're constantly paying veteran players two or three times as much to fill the roster and then screaming poverty when our marquee free agents leave.

Herman Johnson was good enough to make the NFC North Champs' roster but not good enough to make our 53? C'mon.

Johnson, Canfield, and Harrington were plucked off the practice squad.

Okay. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[kerouac9]

Except that the older guys aren't doing anything either.

Warner,Boldin,Rolle,Dansby,Berry and Okeafor. (34 years experience just with Arizona) Few if any teams can lose that many veteran players in one off season and expect to keep winning. No matter who you bring in as replacements it takes time for the new guys to adjust.

So maybe the Cards just need to sit tight for a year and let the guys we have take advantage of the year they spent playing together instead of doing a second consecutive major roster overhaul.

And that's sort of what I'm trying to say. If it takes a year (or two!) of sitting on the bench to figure out Russ Grimm's supposedly simple blocking scheme, does it make sense to release these first-year OL season after season? If it takes multiple seasons to transition from college DE to 3-4 OLB, does it make sense that we've cut our last two OLB conversion projects before they'd been able to assimilate their first season?

It's a player development issue more than anything else, because we're not developing players. We shouldn't pretend that Whis is a guy who can take a young team and build it into a winner the way that Mike McCarthy has done if he's really the Bob Brenly of NFL coaches, who can take a veteran team and get the most out of them but is clueless when dealing with young players.

There's nothing wrong with this second category--you could put Bill Belicheck into that category. But don't tell me that we need a youth movement on the roster and then point to a guy in Whis who hasn't developed anyone in his professional career. No, Ben Roethlisberger doesn't count.

 

[Russ Smith]

If we trade for Clausen I'm holding you personally responsible Walt.



I wouldn't mind getting Maualuga I agree CIncy isn't using him to his best, I always liked him as a player at USC, just knew he would slip on draft day because of all the baggage in his past.

 

[Krangodnzr]

And that's sort of what I'm trying to say. If it takes a year (or two!) of sitting on the bench to figure out Russ Grimm's supposedly simple blocking scheme, does it make sense to release these first-year OL season after season? If it takes multiple seasons to transition from college DE to 3-4 OLB, does it make sense that we've cut our last two OLB conversion projects before they'd been able to assimilate their first season?

It's a player development issue more than anything else, because we're not developing players. We shouldn't pretend that Whis is a guy who can take a young team and build it into a winner the way that Mike McCarthy has done if he's really the Bob Brenly of NFL coaches, who can take a veteran team and get the most out of them but is clueless when dealing with young players.

There's nothing wrong with this second category--you could put Bill Belicheck into that category. But don't tell me that we need a youth movement on the roster and then point to a guy in Whis who hasn't developed anyone in his professional career. No, Ben Roethlisberger doesn't count.

But you're sort of looking at this with no context; this hasn't been a rebuilding team, this has been a contending team. Contending teams don't have time for Trevor Canfield to develop, they need to use roster spots for people who can play NOW. So you put your 7th round on the practice squad, and hope no one takes them; this happened with three of the players you mentioned above.

I think your theory will be proven to either be correct or false this coming season. This team has gotten a lot younger, and we'll be relying heavily on guys like Schofield, Roberts, Dan Williams, Toler, D Washington, and Peterson.

On a sidenote, I read Bill Williamson of ESPN Insider the other day talking about Russ Grimm's coaching prowess. He said Grimm is a hell of a coach and our oline problems are talent related, not a coaching problem.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Except that the older guys aren't doing anything either.

Warner,Boldin,Rolle,Dansby,Berry and Okeafor. (34 years experience just with Arizona) Few if any teams can lose that many veteran players in one off season and expect to keep winning. No matter who you bring in as replacements it takes time for the new guys to adjust.

So maybe the Cards just need to sit tight for a year and let the guys we have take advantage of the year they spent playing together instead of doing a second consecutive major roster overhaul.

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not giving anyone a break on the personnel side either. The pieces brought in to fill the gaps of late have been miserable failures and that reflects not only on the front office but the coaching staff as well.

Further, there were some obviously glaring holes from last year that were not addressed that led to the 2010 debacle. QB, OL, ILB, OLB, and TE were all positions that required upgrades and instead were ignored. It's one thing to go in with a low payroll, but you better be damn sure you have your holes covered, or you lose all the positive capital that has been so rare throughout the years.

I agree with Krang that the upcoming year will be crucial in terms of evaluation. It's just so difficult to lose so many valuable pieces and go cheap on replacing them. Losing Warner was an absolutely crushing blow, and because of that, I consider it very difficult to take much of anything from last year. Get a half decent qb on board, and we'll see what we have.

 

[bg7brd]

Brandon Johnson has turned into a very good special teams player and 4th LB in Cincy. Chris Harrington has been a special teams player for the Bengals and Tiatns. Canfield has spent time on the rosters of the Seahawks and Lions. These guys could be competing for jobs with us, but instead we're constantly paying veteran players two or three times as much to fill the roster and then screaming poverty when our marquee free agents leave.

Herman Johnson was good enough to make the NFC North Champs' roster but not good enough to make our 53? C'mon.



Okay. What does that have to do with anything?

You claimed they were cut. There is a difference between being cut and
plucked off a practice roster.

 

[Duckjake]

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not giving anyone a break on the personnel side either. The pieces brought in to fill the gaps of late have been miserable failures and that reflects not only on the front office but the coaching staff as well.

Further, there were some obviously glaring holes from last year that were not addressed that led to the 2010 debacle. QB, OL, ILB, OLB, and TE were all positions that required upgrades and instead were ignored. It's one thing to go in with a low payroll, but you better be damn sure you have your holes covered, or you lose all the positive capital that has been so rare throughout the years.

I agree with Krang that the upcoming year will be crucial in terms of evaluation. It's just so difficult to lose so many valuable pieces and go cheap on replacing them. Losing Warner was an absolutely crushing blow, and because of that, I consider it very difficult to take much of anything from last year. Get a half decent qb on board, and we'll see what we have.

I hear you. The TE position especially is just baffling that the Cards can't figure it out.

I really feel that what happened last year was a result of losing all that experience in just one off season. Not just as a result of replacing Warner with DeWreck Anderson and Max Hall. We went from being the #1 team in the NFL in terms of number of players with the most time with one team to one with multiple players either new to the team or in new positions.

That being said, you are probably more on the money with the comment about this season being the tell all for CKW/Graves talent evaluation than you think because we have 6 players on defense who will be entering their 2nd year with the Cards or as a starter. Rhodes, Lenon, Washington, Schofield, Toler and Williams. That should greatly improve the Cards defense and as a result the teams odds of once again winning the NFC West.

If it doesn't then we're likely in for a long run of 5-11 seasons.

 

[JeffGollin]

I wonder if the Cardinals' problems have less to do with "drafting" or "personnel evaluation" and more to do with the strategic phenomenon I'll term: "Getting caught in the middle" (i.e. neither here nor there).

In marketing, you see this when - instead of either making your product either (a) very expensive and highest quality or (b) lowest price - you position it in the murky middle where, in trying to be all things to all people, you wind up being "nothing to nobody."

Or when you're crossing a busy highway - where you should either (a) sprint balls out or (b) don't go at all - you get halfway across and then "just stop."

The Cardinals don't have a clearly-defined personality on either side of the ball. (Their plans to become a power-running team were set back when Warner grabbed the reins from Leinart and Fitz, Q and Steve turned out to be an All Pro receiving group). Fortunately this worked out for the good, but it left us in never-never land when Warner retired & our offense wound up being neither fish nor foul because there was no established concrete system to build our future offense around. (We're kind of winging it).

On defense, we were neither 4-3 or 3-4 for a couple of years. While we're moving toward a 3-4, we're still in a transitional "limbo." We've finally got our NT's, our big DE's and cover corners, but we don't yet have the primo pass rushing OLB you need to make the 3-4 really potent.

Maybe the long-range plan has been to get there gradually and orderly - by stocking the team with the right players for the right positions in preset offensive and defensive systems. But, if so, we're not yet at that point where, when one guy leaves, the next clone on the depth chart can automatically step up and takes his place.

 

[kerouac9]

You claimed they were cut. There is a difference between being cut and
plucked off a practice roster.

They're cut and then placed on the practice squad. It's a distinction without a difference.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Porter on the other hand played a ton of snaps. I know there wasn't a whole lot behind him, but damn he played too many snaps for an older player.

I tend to agree with this.. however, how many snaps should a player being paid $5 million play??

 

[Mulli]

I tend to agree with this.. however, how many snaps should a player being paid $5 million play??

Are they any good?

 

[Duckjake]

Maybe the long-range plan has been to get there gradually and orderly - by stocking the team with the right players for the right positions in preset offensive and defensive systems. But, if so, we're not yet at that point where, when one guy leaves, the next clone on the depth chart can automatically step up and takes his place.

That plan will get you fired. You don't have time to build a team gradually and orderly.

Our problem last season was that the clones had to step in before they were ready. 16 Cardinal draft picks with 2 or less seasons in the NFL played key roles last year.

 

[kerouac9]

But you're sort of looking at this with no context; this hasn't been a rebuilding team, this has been a contending team. Contending teams don't have time for Trevor Canfield to develop, they need to use roster spots for people who can play NOW. So you put your 7th round on the practice squad, and hope no one takes them; this happened with three of the players you mentioned above.

I think your theory will be proven to either be correct or false this coming season. This team has gotten a lot younger, and we'll be relying heavily on guys like Schofield, Roberts, Dan Williams, Toler, D Washington, and Peterson.

On a sidenote, I read Bill Williamson of ESPN Insider the other day talking about Russ Grimm's coaching prowess. He said Grimm is a hell of a coach and our oline problems are talent related, not a coaching problem.

So the 5-11 season with young players doesn't suggest that this is true, and the list of Whisenhunt draftees that have failed or are underperforming doesn't suggest that this is true, but if we don't go 8-8 or better in 2011 you're going to come to me and say that I was right all along and that Whis needs to go?

Because I don't want to hear you next season complaining that Whis continues to not get his way with draft picks or free agents and this is all on Rod Graves.

I'm pretty sure that the evidence for Whis being a poor developer of players is fairly clear over his tenure so far. But if you need another season of awful football to see it, I'll hear from you in January.

EDIT: Do you mean Matt Williamson or Bill Williamson? Bill Williamson is their AFC East Blogger. Matt Williamson is their "Scout" who worked for the Browns for one season under Jeremy Green and doesn't know any more about football than you or I--except that he's a shameless Pittsburgh homer and will fall all over himself to prop up a Steeler like Grimm.

I said it when we hired Grimm, and it's still true. When Grimm was a head coaching candidate in Pittsburgh, he had four offensive linemen who were first- or second-round picks and they were all established veterans. Any coach should be able to succeed in that situation. Levi Brown--Grimm's hand-picked left tackle--has been a failure as a top 5 pick, and it's difficult to say that this offensive line is better now than it was when he found it. He's maybe developed Brandon Keith, but no one else has gotten better during his tenure here.

The problem on the offensive line is not talent. Our offensive line is as talented as any in the NFL. The problem on the offensive line is scheme, technique, and game-plan. I've never seen a bigger disconnect between what the offensive line is built to do and what the offensive system actually does. That's not all on Grimm, but he's sat there and let it happen for the last four seasons.

 

[Duckjake]

I tend to agree with this.. however, how many snaps should a player being paid $5 million play??

Simple. The number of snaps that will keep him most able to help the team win. How much a player is paid is irrelevant. Once a guy is signed the only important thing is how can he help us watch the Cardinals win.

We saw what happens when a player is used according to how much he makes instead of where he can best help the team win with the Leonard Davis move to Left Tackle.