Say Goodbye to Both Boldin and Dockett

[DaisyCutter]

It is the Troy Hambrick effect in my humble opinion.

Remember when Troy Hambrick was going to be the next Cowboys RB after Emmitt Smith ?

His productivity was insane when he was splitting time with Smith. But once the start teams started to game plan against him, and Hambrick ended up doing ZERO!

Norwood would bring nothing to this squad and would be a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE move for the Cardinals to give up Dockett for.

I dunno. It's really hard to say. When Hambrick became the full-time starter, he still gained almost 1000 yards and scored 5 TDs, though his YPC dropped to 3.5 (which is still better than a guy like Marcel Shipp, whom people here seem to defend to no end).

I guess I have to wonder if it was all Hambrick, or also that the Cowboys (I think) had Quincy Carter as their quarterback and Richie Anderson was their leading pass-catcher.

Norwood is an interesting player, but I don't think you trade for running backs unless you're talking about a Clinton Portis-level talent. Norwood would require a new contract and you never know when he'd start to wear down. Also, I don't think he'll ever be an every-down back, so you're basically trading a Pro Bowl DT who probably hasn't reached his peak for two RBs, and I don't think that's going to help.

 

[MadCardDisease]

For the other trade, Boldin ranked 16th in DPAR (22.4), while Crayton ranked 25th (17.7). This should surprise those that still feel that Anquan Boldin is one of the top 5 WRs in the NFL. Crayton plus a #1 pick would be a great value because the Cards would save money for an equivalent player. And they'd pick up a valuable draft pick.

That is just Silly! Crayton is no where near the player that Boldin is. If Crayton truely was almost the equivalent of Boldin, why would the Cowboys even consider trading for Boldin. They would already have their answer in Crayton.

 

[imaCafan]

They already have T.O. Why the need for Boldin????

 

[football karma]

That is just Silly! Crayton is no where near the player that Boldin is. If Crayton truely was almost the equivalent of Boldin, why would the Cowboys even consider trading for Boldin. They would already have their answer in Crayton.

it is something that perplexes me as well.

If the Cowboys feel that Patrick Crayton isnt the answer opposite TO, why should the Cards feel he is an acceptable answer opposite Fitz?

I just dont feel like a first round pick, likely to be #22 or higher, plus a run of the mill WR is enough compensation for a guy who has been to two probowls in his first 5 years.

 

[DaisyCutter]

That is just Silly! Crayton is no where near the player that Boldin is. If Crayton truely was almost the equivalent of Boldin, why would the Cowboys even consider trading for Boldin. They would already have their answer in Crayton.

Those are the stats, man. Don't look at me. I think that Boldin is overvalued because of the 2 or 3 highlight plays that he makes each season, and that his injury risk is undervalued. It's likely that his injuries over the second half of the season factored into that, as well. It's worth mentioning that in 2006, Boldin ranked 21st in DPAR (18.8) and 38th in DVOA.

The issue for the Cowboys is that (I would suppose) that they're interested in winning the Super Bowl right now, and even if Boldin begins a steep decline starting in 2009, they'll get closer to that goal now. And that's likely true. Also, they're protected against a possible injury to Terrell Owens. Also, no one expects Owens to play out his new extension, which means they'll already have Owens' replacement on the roster.

Crayton isn't the "equivalent" of Boldin, but you have to wonder if the Cards might be able to make up the difference in value by spreading those opportunities around better.

it is something that perplexes me as well.

If the Cowboys feel that Patrick Crayton isnt the answer opposite TO, why should the Cards feel he is an acceptable answer opposite Fitz?

I just dont feel like a first round pick, likely to be #22 or higher, plus a run of the mill WR is enough compensation for a guy who has been to two probowls in his first 5 years.

I would think that the Cowboys would feel that, again, Boldin is the future as T.O. begins to decline, while Crayton is a career #2. The Cards have a #1 WR for the next 5 years in Fitzgerald, and they may not want to pay 2 #1 WR money--especially if they really feel that they're going to run the ball 60% of the time and be successful doing so.

Boldin may have been to 2 Pro Bowls in 5 years, but he's completed 16 games 1 time in the last 4, and the offense has become more diverse.

The question isn't "Is Boldin more valueable than Crayton?" That answer is obvious. The question isn't even "Is Boldin more valuable than Crayton and a pick between 25 and 32?" I think that question is a little more arguable. But when it becomes "Is Bolin more valuable than Crayton, a late-first round pick, and $15 million or so in cap savings over the next three years?" It becomes hard to argue otherwise.

 

[DaisyCutter]

The question isn't "Is Boldin more valueable than Crayton?" That answer is obvious. The question isn't even "Is Boldin more valuable than Crayton and a pick between 25 and 32?" I think that question is a little more arguable. But when it becomes "Is Bolin more valuable than Crayton, a late-first round pick, and $15 million or so in cap savings over the next three years?" It becomes hard to argue otherwise.

The argument that Iwould make is that the Cowboys also place a premium on Anquan Boldin because while they have a lot of leadership on their defense, no one has stepped up on offense. Placing Anquan Boldin on a playoff team as a captain might bring out the best in the player and the unit, and would give the quarterback a more dependable third-down target.

The question is whether the Cards believe that they currently have enough leadership on their offensive unit that they can afford to trade away an unhappy captain. Will an Edgerrin James in decline fill the void? If Matt Leinart struggles out of the gate, will Kurt Warner score a phyrric victory? Can Larry Fitzgerald earn his salary in the lockerroom as well as on the field? I don't think that these are questions that can be answered from the outside looking in.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

DC is arguing against himself.

Somebody get him a beer stat...................or maybe it is the fact that someone needs to take the beer away.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Those are the stats, man. Don't look at me. I think that Boldin is overvalued because of the 2 or 3 highlight plays that he makes each season, and that his injury risk is undervalued. It's likely that his injuries over the second half of the season factored into that, as well. It's worth mentioning that in 2006, Boldin ranked 21st in DPAR (18.8) and 38th in DVOA.

DPAR? DVOA? What happened to the eye ball test or common sense?

These numbers don't tell the whole story!

Look at the ranking of some of the WRs:

W.Welker Ranked 5th in DPAR (37.1)

Or

B.Engram Ranked 7th in DPAR (32.0)

These guys are ranked way ahead of Boldin who was at 16th with a DPAR of (22.4). Yet neither of these guys could even come close to Boldin in talent. Silly system if you ask me.

 

[Russ Smith]

Those are both HORRIBLE deals for th eCards.

 

[wembley88]

Thats like being persuaded to sell your ferrari because you've been offered a porsche and a maserati which is maybe a good trade but after you do it you realise you really really loved that ferrari

 

[Russ Smith]

Crayton is a 29 year old who has a career best of 50 catches last year. So he's coming into his own as he is about to turn 30(in april 09).

Boldin is a much better player but has the injury risk and the contract issue.

I just don't see Crayton as the guy to come close to what boldin does remember he plays opposite TO now with Romo at QB and only put up 50 catches and 7TD's, it's not like Fitz is a much better player than TO and Matt/Kurt are much better than Romo. He's a good player but no way I make that deal.

 

[PDXChris]

Crayton is a 29 year old who has a career best of 50 catches last year. So he's coming into his own as he is about to turn 30(in april 09).

Boldin is a much better player but has the injury risk and the contract issue.

I just don't see Crayton as the guy to come close to what boldin does remember he plays opposite TO now with Romo at QB and only put up 50 catches and 7TD's, it's not like Fitz is a much better player than TO and Matt/Kurt are much better than Romo. He's a good player but no way I make that deal.

Remember though, Jason Witten is on that team and had 96 catched last year. Crayton was the third option and still had 50 catches. Johnson was the third option here last year and had 46 catched while being the #2 guy in 5 games. But, then again, Crayton did miss a game and had ZERO catches in 2 of the 15 games he played. That is a scary stat!!!!!!!!! So, I after reading back what I typed, I say no to Q being traded, not sure about Dockett yet.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Once upon a time, the Cards allowed a TE to get away and join the Cowboys. He became one of Troy Aikman's favourite targets and they share Super Bowl rings.

Jay Novacek's career with the Cowboys should be a cautionary tale for those so quick to send the fastest guy to 400 catches in NFL HISTORY to Dallas, or anywhere else, I might add.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Remember though, Jason Witten is on that team and had 96 catched last year. Crayton was the third option and still had 50 catches. Johnson was the third option here last year and had 46 catched while being the #2 guy in 5 games. But, then again, Crayton did miss a game and had ZERO catches in 2 of the 15 games he played. That is a scary stat!!!!!!!!! So, I after reading back what I typed, I say no to Q being traded, not sure about Dockett yet.

Boldin & Pope for Witten and 1st and 6th pick.

That is a good trade.

 

[CardinalChris]

Remember though, Jason Witten is on that team and had 96 catched last year. Crayton was the third option and still had 50 catches. Johnson was the third option here last year and had 46 catched while being the #2 guy in 5 games. But, then again, Crayton did miss a game and had ZERO catches in 2 of the 15 games he played. That is a scary stat!!!!!!!!! So, I after reading back what I typed, I say no to Q being traded, not sure about Dockett yet.

Crayton played on a very bad ankle during those games which is why he missed the one game.

 

[Russ Smith]

Crayton played on a very bad ankle during those games which is why he missed the one game.

You're right I had him on my fantasy team and he did nothing those weeks because of the ankle.

He's a good player but I worry about a guy coming into his own so close to 30in a league where 30 is somewhat old.

 

[gamebird98]

Those are both HORRIBLE deals for th eCards.

Which means we will do it!!!!!

 

[vinnymac]

All right, vinny. Think of it another way. Dockett was arguably the best (maybe second- or third-best) player on our defense last season. With the return of Adrian Wilson, he'll at worst be the fourth-best player on our defense. Our defense was 17th in the NFL in yardage last season, but 27th in the NFL in scoring defense. Also, you would be removing the largest sack threat on the entire defense; no other Cardinal defender notched more than 6 quarterback kills.

So, take away one of the top players on the defense and without question the best player on the defensive line, and the defense is not going to improve. It would get much worse. In my opinion, the success of the Cards' season will depend on the scoring defense going from 27th to somewhere between 12th and 17th.

On the other hand, the Cards were the 12th best offense in yardage last season, and 7th in scoring offense. Would adding a decent second running back really make that much of a marginal improvement? Enough for a drastic reduction in defensive effectiveness? I personally don't think so. And a 2nd round pick isn't going to make up for that.

The deal that I would make with the Falcons is Norwood and their #1 pick in 2009. I think they'll be a little better next season, so a 3rd round back and a Top 15 pick would be good value for a Pro Bowl defensive tackle.

But I don't think a trade like that would happen. If the Cards wanted to upgrade at running back, they could have taken one much earlier than they settled on Hightower, and gotten a back that has a greater chance of contributing in the offensive packages.

I love Dockett, but he is overrated. If Dockett is the 4th best defensive player on the team, then the Cardinals are in some serious need of an overhaul on defense. I believe that what they did this off season. Norwood on the other hand, is a speed back. That is what the Cardinals need to help out the rushing game. Norwood is the scoring threat that the Cardinals need on offense. A team can get a good player in the 2nd & 3rd rounds. The Moral to my story is that Dockett will not be that hard to replace.

 

[vinnymac]

Yeah, he is sooooooooo good that the Falcons gave a boat load of money to make Michael Turner to be the every down back.

That because they know that you need 2 backs to have a great running game. Vick is out of the NFL. Just in case you didn't know. Plus Dunn went back to Tampa. That means they replaced Dunn with a younger Back that is suppose to be a stud. Another thing is that the Falcons has always had a 2 back system in place. It is obvious you never seen Norwood play.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I love Dockett, but he is overrated. If Dockett is the 4th best defensive player on the team, then the Cardinals are in some serious need of an overhaul on defense. I believe that what they did this off season. Norwood on the other hand, is a speed back. That is what the Cardinals need to help out the rushing game. Norwood is the scoring threat that the Cardinals need on offense. A team can get a good player in the 2nd & 3rd rounds. The Moral to my story is that Dockett will not be that hard to replace.

Care to expand on any of that? Because Dockett was the only player on our defense to make the Pro Bowl last season, which would technically make him the best player on our defense. And the Cards are going to deploy 10 of the 11 starters that they went into training camp with (Rolle replacing Holt the only change). So where's the "overhaul" on defense?

Dockett is the best player on our defensive line. Is there any question of that? He had more sacks than San Diego's Igor Olshansky and Luis Castillo combined. He had more sacks than Dallas's Chris Canty and Marcus Spears. Combined. And he's getting better. He might be the best 3-4 defensive end in the NFL right now. Do you really think that he's going to be "replaced" by 33 year old Bryan Robinson and two rookies? Please.

I agree with you that Norwood is a good back. I like him a lot. But the guy didn't have more than 10 carries in any game but one in 2007. There are 30 other "speed backs" in the NFL that would be just or good or better than Norwood, and you wouldn't have to immediately re-sign to a long-term contract.

You don't trade a Pro Bowl DT who hasn't yet reached his prime for a 2nd string back and a 2nd round draft pick.

EDIT: And you still didn't answer my question about how much of a difference you really expected a speed back to make in our offense. We already had one of the better offenses in the NFL. Do you really think that moving from 7th to 5th in scoring offense is going to help more than falling from 27th to 31st in scoring defense?

 

[lobo]

Good question about Rosenhaus.


If the Cards can get fair value for Q...especially now that he's hot on the market, for a number of reasons they likely should.

You bet....nothing worse than having malcontents around to poison the water. If they don't want to play so be it....get what you can and be done with it. Plenty of talent of this team and with a year under their belts we should see improvement. No doubt they are both good to very good players but....yeah good to very good...don't put them in the elite class cause they ain't.

 

[vinnymac]

Care to expand on any of that? Because Dockett was the only player on our defense to make the Pro Bowl last season, which would technically make him the best player on our defense. And the Cards are going to deploy 10 of the 11 starters that they went into training camp with (Rolle replacing Holt the only change). So where's the "overhaul" on defense?

Dockett is the best player on our defensive line. Is there any question of that? He had more sacks than San Diego's Igor Olshansky and Luis Castillo combined. He had more sacks than Dallas's Chris Canty and Marcus Spears. Combined. And he's getting better. He might be the best 3-4 defensive end in the NFL right now. Do you really think that he's going to be "replaced" by 33 year old Bryan Robinson and two rookies? Please.

I agree with you that Norwood is a good back. I like him a lot. But the guy didn't have more than 10 carries in any game but one in 2007. There are 30 other "speed backs" in the NFL that would be just or good or better than Norwood, and you wouldn't have to immediately re-sign to a long-term contract.

You don't trade a Pro Bowl DT who hasn't yet reached his prime for a 2nd string back and a 2nd round draft pick.

EDIT: And you still didn't answer my question about how much of a difference you really expected a speed back to make in our offense. We already had one of the better offenses in the NFL. Do you really think that moving from 7th to 5th in scoring offense is going to help more than falling from 27th to 31st in scoring defense?

Norwood has on 202 carries 1,243 yards which averages out to 6.2 yards per carry & 3 touchdowns. Show me a back in the league that averages 6.2 ypc.

Dockett was good the first half the season & then disappeared in the second. Mind you he made the pro-bowl due to other DL not able to make the trip. If you are satisified with Dockett & his eight sacks as being the best thing since sliced bread, then you have grown to love average. Plus on top of everything else, Mr. eight sacks is going to hold out unless he gets a new contract. That is after signing a new deal last season. So as far as I am concerned Mr. Eight Sacks and his agent can go to atlanta. We can get a 6.2 ypc on our team. If Norwood was on team & he works out then I say signed the guy to a better deal. It is about Production to Salary my friend. Dockett production doesn't justify a new contract. You must have forgotten that the Cardinals drafted Mr. Eight Sacks in the 3rd. Here is another history lesson for you. Micheal Straham was taken in the second round. So you can get a great player in the 2nd round.

 

[ajcardfan]

Dockett was good the first half the season & then disappeared in the second. Mind you he made the pro-bowl due to other DL not able to make the trip. If you are satisified with Dockett & his eight sacks as being the best thing since sliced bread, then you have grown to love average.

.......
Here is another history lesson for you. Micheal Straham was taken in the second round. So you can get a great player in the 2nd round.

To be fair, he was getting a lot more attention in the form of double teams and audibles away from his side too. That said, I totally disagree with the holdout. The trouble is not Pace, as much as it is the contract the stupid Raiders gave to their guy.


Yes, but you can also get Johnny Rutledge and Leeland McElroy in the second round too. Giving away a proven good starter for a draft pick and a scrub would be a stupid move.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I have some sources too, know a super rich art collector in Dallas who has some rich friends who know guys in the Cowboy organization and this news on Boldin was the first they heard for what it is worth...damn, I'm sounding like an old REO Speedwagon song "Heard from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another that Boldin won't be traded"

 

[CardinalChris]

Dockett was good the first half the season & then disappeared in the second. Mind you he made the pro-bowl due to other DL not able to make the trip. If you are satisified with Dockett & his eight sacks as being the best thing since sliced bread, then you have grown to love average.

I think his point is that he is the best D-Lineman we have and it isn't that easy to go find a Michael Strahan. For every second round Hall of Famer, I have 50 flops so bad it looks like a Jazz game. And if you don't think there is value in a 3-4 DE take a look at Pittsburgh after Aaron Smith got hurt. I could care less if he was a second alternate he was only the second Cardinal who made it to the game at a position that is STACKED with talent. He led the NFL's DTs in sacks. That second half was tough. Nobody was hurt more by Bertrand Berry than Dockett. And with Antonio Smith anything but a steady threat on the other side, Dockett was double and tripple teamed. He is entering his prime, plays inside and outside well above average in the NFL. Letting him leave would be irresponsible.

Now, that being said, he needs to play under his contract. This is one of those things that won't matter in 4 months.