Scenario: Arians stays with staff changes?

[Mitch]

Wow, you sure look at everything through jaded glasses. Was Arians "arrogant" to hire Bowles in the first place? Nobody wanted him. Maybe Arians, after two years working closely with Bettcher, and perhaps with Bowles' recommendation, thought he was up for the job. You can't attribute every mistake to arrogance.

...dbs

Todd Bowles came in with a resume...he was even an interim head coach and had experience calling and coordinating defenses. What did James Bettcher come in with? BA's arrogance is in his belief that he is creating a premier coaching tree where unqualified assistants can thrive as coordinators. Tell us, then, which one of BA's three current coordinators (Goodwin, Bettcher and Jones) has done a commendable job? Can you make a case for any of them? The Bettcher promotion was the most dubious because Bettcher was highly inexperienced and had never coordinated a defense on any level.

 

[Mitch]

IIRC, they tried to bring in Dick LeBeau to run the defense at the time, but he didn't want to go to the West coast?

This was laughable because BA actually didn't want LeBeau to be the DC---he wanted LeBeau to tutor Bettcher. Remember that?

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

I have a tough time believing Keim will force Arians to do anything.

If that's the case...then Keim doesn't have what it takes to truly be a good GM. Keim really hasn't had to make very many big decisions since he's been here...he's just kind of been along for the ride.

 

[Mitch]

If that's the case...then Keim doesn't have what it takes to truly be a good GM. Keim really hasn't had to make very many big decisions since he's been here...he's just kind of been along for the ride.

Keim will have a say one way or anther, but ultimately Michael Bidwill has to make the big decision regarding BA and his staff.

 

[PDXChris]

IIRC, they tried to bring in Dick LeBeau to run the defense at the time, but he didn't want to go to the West coast?

I remember that, he thought he could mentor Betcher for when LeBeau was ready to retire.

 

[daves]

Todd Bowles came in with a resume...he was even an interim head coach and had experience calling and coordinating defenses. What did James Bettcher come in with?

Gimme a break Mitch... This is revisionist history of the highest order.

Bowles was the secondary coach in Miami and was named interim head coach with 3 games left in the season. Then he was hired as the secondary coach in Philadelphia under novice DC Juan Castillo, and took over as DC 6 games into the season. The Eagles D, which had surrendered 21 points per game in the first 6 weeks, gave up 32 points per game over 10 games after Bowles took over!

Bowles was reviled as the choice for DC in Arizona, but Arians had worked with him & had faith in him, and it worked out well.

Bettcher "ame in with three years' experience working with Arians and apprenticing under Manusky in Indy & Bowles in Arizona. He was responsible for the half time adjustments that had been so successful under Bowles. If Arians and Bowles had faith in him and thought he was ready to be DC, they may have been wrong, but to call the decision "arrogant" just shows that you hate Arians' personality - a point which you've already made clear ad nauseam.

...dave

 

[Mitch]

Gimme a break Mitch... This is revisionist history of the highest order.

Bowles was the secondary coach in Miami and was named interim head coach with 3 games left in the season. Then he was hired as the secondary coach in Philadelphia under novice DC Juan Castillo, and took over as DC 6 games into the season. The Eagles D, which had surrendered 21 points per game in the first 6 weeks, gave up 32 points per game over 10 games after Bowles took over!

Bowles was reviled as the choice for DC in Arizona, but Arians had worked with him & had faith in him, and it worked out well.

Bettcher "ame in with three years' experience working with Arians and apprenticing under Manusky in Indy & Bowles in Arizona. He was responsible for the half time adjustments that had been so successful under Bowles. If Arians and Bowles had faith in him and thought he was ready to be DC, they may have been wrong, but to call the decision "arrogant" just shows that you hate Arians' personality - a point which you've already made clear ad nauseam.

...dave

To be honest, daves, I, like many of us, was pleasantly surprised to see Todd Bowles thrive in Arizona. Your outline of his experience is 100% accurate.

But---at least Bowles had some credentials and experience coming in. The hire wasn't just on blind faith.

Bowles played 8 years in the NFL and he had 14 years of coaching experience in the NFL when BA hired him---plus some experience as an interim HC and as a DC.

Betther---no NFL experience as a player, and 3 years as an NFL assistant (one as Chuck Pagano's "personal assistant" and two as Cardinals' OLB coach).

Yes, BA's arrogance and lack of responsibility piss me off. Sorry if that makes you nauseous.

 

[BigRedRage]

IIRC, they tried to bring in Dick LeBeau to run the defense at the time, but he didn't want to go to the West coast?

that's not "he had no ability to recruit anyone so just gave it to bettcher instead"

 

[Cheesebeef]

Scenario: Card kick can down the road another year with the oldest team in the league and pass again on trying to get a Franchise QB.

No thanks.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

BA's philosophy is too rigid and is losing out to today's game. It's passing him by and it's time to move on. It sucks, but it has changed quickly and he refuses to adjust.

Thank you for your service; here is a watch and a coupon for a free visit to Golden Corral.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

This may be the root of Arians blind loyalty to his coaches. I daresay after his experience in Pittsburgh where Tomlin went in to get him a raise and left with Arian's walking papers are the source of his "I will never fire a coach" statement.

What's my name?

 

[TJ]

IIRC, they tried to bring in Dick LeBeau to run the defense at the time, but he didn't want to go to the West coast?

I think Bettcher was always the choice, but they tried to bring LeBeau in as a consultant, or something along those lines.

 

[oaken1]

Scenario: Card kick can down the road another year with the oldest team in the league and pass again on trying to get a Franchise QB.

No thanks.

yeah... that might cause me to take up fishing again. which means I would never be home to catch a football game... my little brother would love it

 

[oaken1]

What's my name?

Serial KILLA!!

 

[Solar7]

I don't want Bruce to come back, sadly. I think he's just running on empty because of age.

As far as his assistant choices go, I don't think you can just run after whatever big name coordinator comes available each year. You have to develop talent.

 

[oaken1]

I don't want Bruce to come back, sadly. I think he's just running on empty because of age.

As far as his assistant choices go, I don't think you can just run after whatever big name coordinator comes available each year. You have to develop talent.

I agree with that. sooner or later, your young assistants have to pay off.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't want Bruce to come back, sadly. I think he's just running on empty because of age.

As far as his assistant choices go, I don't think you can just run after whatever big name coordinator comes available each year. You have to develop talent.

I agree with that. sooner or later, your young assistants have to pay off.

Why? It's not like coaches are players who get retired every year. A coach's career can span decades, and most don't move around. Wade Phillips would still be in Denver if Elway hadn't decided he was getting too much credit.

 

[Solar7]

Why? It's not like coaches are players who get retired every year. A coach's career can span decades, and most don't move around. Wade Phillips would still be in Denver if Elway hadn't decided he was getting too much credit.

Consistency helps your players. It took the Cardinals half of Bowles' first season to learn his defense, and then they were very productive in a way that continued into Bettcher's first year. That consistency also applies to position coaches and defensive philosophies. Wade Phillips would have wanted to bring in some of his own guys, teach new verbiage, all of that kind of stuff.

I may be very solid at what I do for a living, but if I came into a different organization under the same role, it would still be months before my entire team was buying what I was selling.

 

[oaken1]

Why? It's not like coaches are players who get retired every year. A coach's career can span decades, and most don't move around. Wade Phillips would still be in Denver if Elway hadn't decided he was getting too much credit.

because young guys developing would indicate they are learning... learning may indicate they are at least of average intelligence... lack of learning might indicate they aint very good at what they do.
not always true...(the Peter principal)... but if a guy rocks at coaching DB's.. then try him ay coaching LB's...once he gets rockin at that try him at dline, etc....once he rocks at every position you try him at play calling.
as a coach I would want guys who work hard to learn more than just their function and have the ability to do so. guys with that kind of drive and ability will usually be more successful than a guy who is complacent in his job..
like our antiques collection in the coaches room

 

[kerouac9]

Consistency helps your players. It took the Cardinals half of Bowles' first season to learn his defense, and then they were very productive in a way that continued into Bettcher's first year. That consistency also applies to position coaches and defensive philosophies. Wade Phillips would have wanted to bring in some of his own guys, teach new verbiage, all of that kind of stuff.

I may be very solid at what I do for a living, but if I came into a different organization under the same role, it would still be months before my entire team was buying what I was selling.

Okay, but I don't know how that justifies the assertion that "you have to develop talent." Bettcher worked with Bowles for two seasons.

How's Wade Phillips doing integrating his defense in LA? If you're going to keep a coach for 8-10 years, I don't mind giving him four or five games to integrate his system. The Cards held the Bucs to 10 points and turned them over three times in the third game with Bowles.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Okay, but I don't know how that justifies the assertion that "you have to develop talent." Bettcher worked with Bowles for two seasons.

How's Wade Phillips doing integrating his defense in LA? If you're going to keep a coach for 8-10 years, I don't mind giving him four or five games to integrate his system. The Cards held the Bucs to 10 points and turned them over three times in the third game with Bowles.

Well Rams are 6th in terms of points allowed per game, and 4th in takeaways, so I'd say Wade isn't doing a very bad job.

 

[oaken1]

Well Rams are 6th in terms of points allowed per game, and 4th in takeaways, so I'd say Wade isn't doing a very bad job.

I think that was his point.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

I think that was his point.

I wasn't quite sure lol

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don’t get the Drake focus, every one of our WRs is home grown and out performing their abilities if we go by our criticisms of them. John Brown is sick, Nelson had the drops in college but catches bombs from Palmer, Jaron is a success for an UDFA, Floyd did well for Floyd given he is an alcoholic. THIS year we have problems, but we also have 3 QBs throwing the ball and issues team wide.

I would think you would want to fire the DB coaches since they haven’t turned anyone we have in-house into a competent CB.
.

The DB coach also coaches the safeties. Marcus Cooper was brought in late last year and earned a big free agent contract this past off season. Jefferson was an UDFA and blossomed. The safety from Alabama that preceded Jefferson improved. Swearinger was even grabbed from the scrap heap and became a sought after free agent. I don't think anyone can complain about the DB's the Cards have put out there.

Other than Jaron Brown becoming serviceable, I don't see any WR's outperforming their abilities. Agree, John Brown has been hurt but he and JJ have regressed. Chad Williams is a wait and see. How many times do we hear of the WR's running the wrong route? These aren't rookies out there. If you're going to hold other coaches accountable for missed assignments, Drake is too.

 

[Solar7]

Okay, but I don't know how that justifies the assertion that "you have to develop talent." Bettcher worked with Bowles for two seasons.

How's Wade Phillips doing integrating his defense in LA? If you're going to keep a coach for 8-10 years, I don't mind giving him four or five games to integrate his system. The Cards held the Bucs to 10 points and turned them over three times in the third game with Bowles.

It's basically like any business. You can't just recycle leadership with random people every year without losing track of your long term goals. And that's assuming you agree with the philosophy of an incoming candidate. I'm not going to hire someone to manage part of my team that is a strict authoritarian and micromanager - they and I wouldn't work together, and they wouldn't work well with my team that has come to expect a certain work environment. The candidate may have had success elsewhere, but does that work translate? Do I need to cut a bunch of people and pay unemployment (cap hit)?

It just has to work out right.