Shaq - Kobe - Phil Jackson reunion in Phoenix?

[Caliballfan]

If Shaq makes the all star team this year, those 3 will be in Phoenix together. What are the chances that Shaq keeps up his recent hot streak so that the coaches will be asked to pick him as a backup? will he be asked to sit it out to get some rest, if he does make it?

 

[Chaplin]

Of course Shaq will be picked, he's #2 in votes, and he is arguably the best center in the Western Conference right now.

 

[Andrew]

He has no beef with Kobe anymore, they are actually friends from my understanding. However, he still dislikes Phil...

 

[cobbler]

Of course Shaq will be picked, he's #2 in votes, and he is arguably the best center in the Western Conference right now.

I would love to see that argument. As of today in the west Shaq is:

5th in points per game
4th in field goal % ( greater than 20 games played)
25th in free throw % (no shock here)
6th in rebounds
6th in assists
5th in turnovers
9th in blocks

for centers in the west.

Shaq is having a much better year than I expected, no doubt. But arguably the best is laughable.

 

[Bufalay]

Of course Shaq will be picked, he's #2 in votes, and he is arguably the best center in the Western Conference right now.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Chaplin]

I would love to see that argument. As of today in the west Shaq is:

5th in points per game
4th in field goal % ( greater than 20 games played)
25th in free throw % (no shock here)
6th in rebounds
6th in assists
5th in turnovers
9th in blocks

for centers in the west.

Shaq is having a much better year than I expected, no doubt. But arguably the best is laughable.

Name one center that is better in everything. He is top 6 in 5 categories and has made the biggest difference of any center on any team, including Yao Ming.

I know as a Laker fan you think it's laughable. Perhaps you think Bynum is playing better. I'm not saying Shaq is better than everyone in the West, I'm saying that overall, he's playing the best of his position right now. If he continues doing the same thing for the next month, there's no doubt he'll be on the all star team. Hell, he'll be on the roster now, no doubt.

 

[cobbler]

Name one center that is better in everything. He is top 6 in 5 categories and has made the biggest difference of any center on any team, including Yao Ming.

I know as a Laker fan you think it's laughable. Perhaps you think Bynum is playing better. I'm not saying Shaq is better than everyone in the West, I'm saying that overall, he's playing the best of his position right now. If he continues doing the same thing for the next month, there's no doubt he'll be on the all star team. Hell, he'll be on the roster now, no doubt.

Zach Randolf, AL Jefferson, Yao, and Biedrens ALL have higher averages in points, rebounds, and assists.

Shaq will get to the all star game for 2 reasons. One, it's a popularity contest and your inclusion is not predicated on actual performance and two, the game is in Phoenix.

Certainly not because he is "arguably the best center in the west".

By the way... the stats in the previous post and players in this one are ALL CENTERS. The laughable comment had nothing to do with me being a Laker fan. It was CLEARLY in reference to your delusions and nothing more.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Zach Randolf, AL Jefferson, Yao, and Biedrens ALL have higher averages in points, rebounds, and assists.

Randolph is a PF, Jefferson plays between the two and plays mostly PF and Biedrens averages 14 ppg to Shaq's 16.

The reason he'll make it to the All-Star teams is because he's pretty much the 2nd best C in the West, he still commands a double team, is still a presence in the lane, is still a gifted a passer and he's a big part of winning team, as opposed to Biedrens who makes no impact whatsoever on an awful
GS team.

By the way... the stats in the previous post and players in this one are ALL CENTERS. The laughable comment had nothing to do with me being a Laker fan. It was CLEARLY in reference to your delusions and nothing more.

you're talking about someone else's delusions while listing a 6'9 Zach Randolph as a C? That's a joke.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Name one center that is better in everything. He is top 6 in 5 categories and has made the biggest difference of any center on any team, including Yao Ming.

I know as a Laker fan you think it's laughable. Perhaps you think Bynum is playing better. I'm not saying Shaq is better than everyone in the West, I'm saying that overall, he's playing the best of his position right now. If he continues doing the same thing for the next month, there's no doubt he'll be on the all star team. Hell, he'll be on the roster now, no doubt.

I think Shaq's the 2nd best C in the West, but there's no question that Yao and his 20 and 10, while playing every game and being able to play more minutes while being the centerpiece of a 20-10 injury ravaged Houston club is better at this point.

 

[Sunburn]

Zach Randolf, AL Jefferson, Yao, and Biedrens ALL have higher averages in points, rebounds, and assists.

Shaq will get to the all star game for 2 reasons. One, it's a popularity contest and your inclusion is not predicated on actual performance and two, the game is in Phoenix.

Certainly not because he is "arguably the best center in the west".

By the way... the stats in the previous post and players in this one are ALL CENTERS. The laughable comment had nothing to do with me being a Laker fan. It was CLEARLY in reference to your delusions and nothing more.

It's not laughable. You looking at only their stat line and not understanding what it means is laughable. Shaq's player efficiency rating is actually 3rd among centers for the entire league, and second in the west just behind ming. Player efficiency rating is the best formula we have for determining a player's productivity while on the court. He's having an outstanding, all star caliber year. Actually, you could make an argument for him being the best player on the suns so far this year. Anyone who's watched a suns game this year knows how important O'neal has been for Phoenix. Not just that, but all season he's outplayed the opposing 5 in games. By the way, Zach Randolph is a power forward and doesn't do anything but score and rebound. Anyone who knows anything about basketball will tell you he is less than his stat line would make him seem. Also, Andris Biedrins does not average more points than Shaq. He is a rebounder. Minute for minute, Shaq has been better than most everybody.

 

[Sunburn]

Zach Randolf, AL Jefferson, Yao, and Biedrens ALL have higher averages in points, rebounds, and assists.

Shaq will get to the all star game for 2 reasons. One, it's a popularity contest and your inclusion is not predicated on actual performance and two, the game is in Phoenix.

Certainly not because he is "arguably the best center in the west".

By the way... the stats in the previous post and players in this one are ALL CENTERS. The laughable comment had nothing to do with me being a Laker fan. It was CLEARLY in reference to your delusions and nothing more.

Wrong. You can ask any analyst and they will tell you Shaq has played at an all-star level this year

 

[Sunburn]

Randolph is a PF, Jefferson plays between the two and plays mostly PF and Biedrens averages 14 ppg to Shaq's 16.

The reason he'll make it to the All-Star teams is because he's pretty much the 2nd best C in the West, he still commands a double team, is still a presence in the lane, is still a gifted a passer and he's a big part of winning team, as opposed to Biedrens who makes no impact whatsoever on an awful
GS team.



you're talking about someone else's delusions while listing a 6'9 Zach Randolph as a C? That's a joke.

Thank you. Exactly my point. Well spoken sir

 

[Covert Rain]

Zach Randolf, AL Jefferson, Yao, and Biedrens ALL have higher averages in points, rebounds, and assists.

Shaq will get to the all star game for 2 reasons. One, it's a popularity contest and your inclusion is not predicated on actual performance and two, the game is in Phoenix.

Certainly not because he is "arguably the best center in the west".

By the way... the stats in the previous post and players in this one are ALL CENTERS. The laughable comment had nothing to do with me being a Laker fan. It was CLEARLY in reference to your delusions and nothing more.

Cobbler are you for real? Look at the stats PER center and how each ranks in multiple categories. There are centers who obviously rank higher then Shaq in individual categories. However, Shaq ranks statistically in the top 10 in more categories then most centers in the NBA. Not just the West either. 6 of the categories you mentioned he is top 10. Look at those same centers that are ahead of Shaq and you wills see many of them fall out of the top 10 in other categories. Obviously Shaq is not the player of old or the best center. However, he is still one of the best and deserves to be there. Shaq has been recognized as playing great this year and not just here in Phoenix by local media.

Shaq is consistently in the top 10 across several categories which most of the centers in this league cannot say. Shaq is one of the best centers in the NBA this year according to the overall stats. So I have no clue what your looking at. Now factor in that some of the "Centers" listed in the Stats are really C/PF and playing both positions...it's pretty skewed. Clearly..Shaq is still one of the best Centers in this league.

Honestly....your Lakers stripes consistently show through here. You have made several Suns related comments here that show you have no knowledge of this team whatsoever. Shaq is the 3rd in efficiency at center in the entire NBA right now. Not only is that dominant but is better then 93% of the centers in the NBA.

Your right. Shaq doesn't deserve to be there.

 

[cobbler]

I posted an argument that Shaq is NOT "arguably the best center in the west". I posted statistics from NBA.com for the top 7 catagories. I showed 4 players listed and playing as centers (regardless of their height) that lead Shaq in points/assists/rebounds when asked to show 1. You guys argue that stats don't show everything and then use a stat (PER) to prove your point? You use the argument that hes the best player on your team as well? What does that have to do with other centers on other teams? I never once said he wasn't having a good year. In fact I said just the opposite. You contend the analysts say he's playing at all star caliber so it must be true. hahahaha If that's the case, they all said the Lakers were going to run away with the title this year, so lets just call it a season and hand them the trophy. My argument was never that hes not in the top 10.

My argument was that he's not "arguably the best center in the west". In fact, HE IS ARGUABLY NOT the best center in the west and my Laker stripes have nothing to do with it. The very PER stats that you are using as your reference ARGUABLY have Shaq at #2 in the west and just very slightly above Jefferson. SO THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT.

Let's also not forget that Jefferson has played in all his teams games and Shaq has sat out back to backs. Do you think if Shaq played in those (not to mention the 7 mins more per game) it maybe might dip his number a tad as his vaunted PER is just 22.76 to Jeffersons 22.68? Hmmmmm

I believe that Jefferson and even Biedrins could be in any argument for 2nd best in west. Maybe its your Suns stripes that are showing? Just because a player is playing on a losing team has nothing to do with whether they are playing at all star level or not.

 

[Covert Rain]

I posted an argument that Shaq is NOT "arguably the best center in the west". I posted statistics from NBA.com for the top 7 categories. I showed 4 players listed and playing as centers (regardless of their height) that lead Shaq in points/assists/rebounds when asked to show 1. You guys argue that stats don't show everything and then use a stat (PER) to prove your point? You use the argument that hes the best player on your team as well? What does that have to do with other centers on other teams?

Let's clear this up for you. Some of those players are also playing PF on their teams. Skewing their stats at Center. So "regardless of height" is not the argument. Your missing the point. The positions they play does matter considering Shaq is a pure Center only playing the Center position. Again, compare how many pure centers in the league have top 10 statistics in multiple categories. If anything your proving our point. So..thank you.

SO THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT.

Oh no. We got your point. I believe your point was this:

"Shaq will get to the all star game for 2 reasons. One, it's a popularity contest and the game is in Phoenix

And.....

your inclusion is not predicated on actual performance."

You don't believe his inclusion is predicated on performance regardless of his performance this year and admitting he is one of the best? Really?? One of the best is the very definition of All Star. Really cobbler?? Really?

Two you said if he's on the team it's because the game is in Phoenix and a popularity contest. How popular do you think a guy would be if he stunk it up or wasn't one of the best on the court?

Shaq is one of the best Centers in the NBA. Therefore, if he makes it, it's because of his performance on the court.

Maybe its your Suns stripes that are showing?

No we think your Lakers stripes are showing because this is not the first time you have taken a negative slant towards things with the Suns. We would expect no less from a Lakers fan. Look we have a little built in bias because we are Suns fans. However, your statement above is ridiculous and you know it.

Just because a player is playing on a losing team has nothing to do with whether they are playing at all star level or not.

Who said it does? Just because your a player playing on a winning team has nothing to do with playing at an all star level either. There are plenty of role players on winning teams who are not all stars.

Honestly...I bet if any of these guys you are "arguing are better then Shaq", have shown the ability to win head to heads with Shaq can you please point them out? Show me head to heads this year that show they are better.... please. Can you please point out who these Centers are that could shut down Shaq? You honestly don't think that should be a factor?

 

[cobbler]

Now let me clear some things up for you. The original poster asked if Shaq would be chosen to the all star game as a backup. The 2nd poster said of course, he’s arguably the best center in the west.

Are you clear on that? Let’s hope so.

My reply was to show stats showing players listed as centers regardless if they play some power forward or pure center. Your argument to that was that the stats I used include players that also play PF so they are skewed. You then argue that those stats aren’t even true indicators and reference Hollinger’s PER as a clearer picture. True or not? I show you that even in the PER, Shaq is not the top “true” center (Yao is and by a considerable 2 points) and that there is an argument that Jefferson (another pure center) could be considered #2 since he trails Shaq by a mere 8 one hundredths of a point and has played all games and more minutes. I used your own reference as proof. Enough said there.

Now, do you honestly believe that the all stars that get chosen to play in the game are done so on actual performance for a given year? Really Steel? Really? You don’t think popularity and history play a role? How do you justify Iverson being chosen to start? The starters are chosen by fans and there have been many injustices over the years. Many deserving players haven’t made the teams in lieu of “popular” players. The coaches pick the backups and I believe there are valid arguments for the guys I previous mentioned. I also believe that in any situation where it is close, Shaq would get the nod because he is the more popular player. It’s not so far reaching as you make it sound. Also, many times where there is a close decision to be made, if one of the players happens to play for the hosting site, they get the nod. Again, this is not a revelation or something I just pulled out of a hat. It’s happened many times over the years and I imagine it will continue.

As for my winning team comment, it was a direct reply to whoever posted that Biedrens makes no impact on an awful team.

So let’s see where we stand. I argued against the comment that Shaq was arguably the best center. You used PER as a reference to refute my claim. I showed, using your own reference that he isn’t. I even showed there is such a small gap between #2 and #3 that an argument could be made wither way. I happen to think popularity and the hosting site would be a significant factor in that decision. You don’t. So be it.

So now that the PER stats fail you, were turning to head to head play? Is this “pure” center head to head? Maybe we should add defensive and offensive switches into the mix and compare when they are head to head with forwards and/or guards as well? Come on. How far do we go?

Ok…. I will humor you.

Head to head: ( suns haven’t played GS yet )
Shaq 18pts, 10 reb, 1 asst, 1 stl, 3 blks --- Jefferson 28 pts, 17 reb, 3 asst, 1 stl, 0 blks
Shaq 18pts,,13 reb, 3 asst, 0 stl, 4 blks --- Yao 17 pts, 15 reb, 1 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk,

So…. By the PER stats you introduced Yao is clearly the best center in the west by 2 points and head to haed they pretty much split. Separating Shaq and Jefferson was .08 in PER so I say there could be an argument there as to who is #2 in the west. Using head to head as YOU suggest it’s a slam dunk for Jefferson. Go figure.

Look, Shaq has had a great year. I for one am totally surprised by it and admit it. My points in the posts were simply to say that he’s not the best and arguments can be made that he’s not even the 2nd best in the west this year. Also that all star selections are not always fair in choosing the best players for any given position for that particular year. If you cannot see my points… so be it. I can’t make them any clearer for you. Enough said.

Well, until you choose another indicator...

note: Let's hope if he does get chosen ole Benedict Arnold plays him!

 

[Covert Rain]

Now let me clear some things up for you. The original poster asked if Shaq would be chosen to the all star game as a backup. The 2nd poster said of course, he’s arguably the best center in the west.

Are you clear on that? Let’s hope so.

My reply was to show stats showing players listed as centers regardless if they play some power forward or pure center. Your argument to that was that the stats I used include players that also play PF so they are skewed. You then argue that those stats aren’t even true indicators and reference Hollinger’s PER as a clearer picture. True or not? I show you that even in the PER, Shaq is not the top “true” center (Yao is and by a considerable 2 points) and that there is an argument that Jefferson (another pure center) could be considered #2 since he trails Shaq by a mere 8 one hundredths of a point and has played all games and more minutes. I used your own reference as proof. Enough said there.

Now, do you honestly believe that the all stars that get chosen to play in the game are done so on actual performance for a given year? Really Steel? Really? You don’t think popularity and history play a role? How do you justify Iverson being chosen to start? The starters are chosen by fans and there have been many injustices over the years. Many deserving players haven’t made the teams in lieu of “popular” players. The coaches pick the backups and I believe there are valid arguments for the guys I previous mentioned. I also believe that in any situation where it is close, Shaq would get the nod because he is the more popular player. It’s not so far reaching as you make it sound. Also, many times where there is a close decision to be made, if one of the players happens to play for the hosting site, they get the nod. Again, this is not a revelation or something I just pulled out of a hat. It’s happened many times over the years and I imagine it will continue.

As for my winning team comment, it was a direct reply to whoever posted that Biedrens makes no impact on an awful team.

So let’s see where we stand. I argued against the comment that Shaq was arguably the best center. You used PER as a reference to refute my claim. I showed, using your own reference that he isn’t. I even showed there is such a small gap between #2 and #3 that an argument could be made wither way. I happen to think popularity and the hosting site would be a significant factor in that decision. You don’t. So be it.

So now that the PER stats fail you, were turning to head to head play? Is this “pure” center head to head? Maybe we should add defensive and offensive switches into the mix and compare when they are head to head with forwards and/or guards as well? Come on. How far do we go?

Ok…. I will humor you.

Head to head: ( suns haven’t played GS yet )
Shaq 18pts, 10 reb, 1 asst, 1 stl, 3 blks --- Jefferson 28 pts, 17 reb, 3 asst, 1 stl, 0 blks
Shaq 18pts,,13 reb, 3 asst, 0 stl, 4 blks --- Yao 17 pts, 15 reb, 1 asst, 1 stl, 1 blk,

So…. By the PER stats you introduced Yao is clearly the best center in the west by 2 points and head to haed they pretty much split. Separating Shaq and Jefferson was .08 in PER so I say there could be an argument there as to who is #2 in the west. Using head to head as YOU suggest it’s a slam dunk for Jefferson. Go figure.

Look, Shaq has had a great year. I for one am totally surprised by it and admit it. My points in the posts were simply to say that he’s not the best and arguments can be made that he’s not even the 2nd best in the west this year. Also that all star selections are not always fair in choosing the best players for any given position for that particular year. If you cannot see my points… so be it. I can’t make them any clearer for you. Enough said.

Well, until you choose another indicator...

note: Let's hope if he does get chosen ole Benedict Arnold plays him!

You just keep digging yourself deeper. I already quoted your exact words and you are being totally ridiculous and you know it. Your words are clear. You feel Shaq shouldn't be there and doesn't deserve to be there. My argument went way beyond the PER as you so state and was not the entire basis. I used effeciency rating, how many statisical categories he is ranked in the top 10 amung pure centers. I never said Shaq was the best. I was only arguing that your comments later were "Lakerish".

You often try and play nice cobbler but your stripes and bias show every once in a while. Regardless of your diatribe...... you still said if he makes it, it's not based on his performance. Argue all you want. If Shaq makes it he deserves it BASED ON HIS PERFORMANCE. The formula is quite simple. He still dominates, still is one of the best Centers and in 99% of his matchups against other centers still can't be stopped. There are centers who do things better for sure but when you look at the overall picture it's clear....except to you Laker fans he deserves to be there.

He deserves to be there and you know it. Period.

 

[cobbler]

Too funny! I keep digging myself deeper and am completely ridiculous... I have never hidden my dislike of Shaq. Everyone knows that. My point was never that he wasnt in the top 10 and you know it. My point was that there are a couple players in the west playing better than him and since they usually take two at a position it can be argued that others are more deserving than him. The original crux of the thread was if he would make it and that he is arguably the best in the west. I proved otherwise. You used your PER as an example... i showed you using it that you are wrong. You then tried to use head to head... I again proved you wrong. Now it's he's in the top 10. Well duh, of course he is.

So ok Steel, Shaq is a top 10 center so regardless of other guys having better years (ie. their performances are better this year) by all the indicators YOU provided, Shaq deserves to be an all star before them. Happy now? hahahahaha

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Too funny! I keep digging myself deeper and am completely ridiculous... I have never hidden my dislike of Shaq. Everyone knows that. My point was never that he wasnt in the top 10 and you know it. My point was that there are a couple players in the west playing better than him and since they usually take two at a position it can be argued that others are more deserving than him. The original crux of the thread was if he would make it and that he is arguably the best in the west. I proved otherwise. You used your PER as an example... i showed you using it that you are wrong. You then tried to use head to head... I again proved you wrong. Now it's he's in the top 10. Well duh, of course he is.

So ok Steel, Shaq is a top 10 center so regardless of other guys having better years (ie. their performances are better this year) by all the indicators YOU provided, Shaq deserves to be an all star before them. Happy now? hahahahaha

such bitterness from a Laker fan. I don't get it. Shaq was the main reason you guys won 3 titles and you're better than us now so why continue to be so bitter?

I still love the fact that you added in Zach Randolph as a C and never bothered to mention that or the fact that Beidren's scoring average isn't as good as Shaq's, two "facts" that you completely made up. And yes, Randolph is a C, unless you somehow consider Camby or Kaman manning the PF slot and if you try to make that argument, you'll look just as ******** as you have in the rest of this thread.

get over your bitterness. [this was posted by cheese using my login]

 

[cobbler]

such bitterness from a Laker fan. I don't get it. Shaq was the main reason you guys won 3 titles and you're better than us now so why continue to be so bitter?

I still love the fact that you added in Zach Randolph as a C and never bothered to mention that or the fact that Beidren's scoring average isn't as good as Shaq's, two "facts" that you completely made up. And yes, Randolph is a C, unless you somehow consider Camby or Kaman manning the PF slot and if you try to make that argument, you'll look just as ******** as you have in the rest of this thread.

get over your bitterness. [this was posted by cheese using my login]

I dont like Shaq. Simple as that. Has nothing to do with titles or the fact that we are better than you now. I didn't like him even as a Laker and said so even as we were winning the titles. Not really sure why that's relevent to this thread.

As i stated above, and you apparently didn't grasp, I took the stats straight off of NBA.com. They are listed as centers. Haven't both Camby and Kaman been hurt this year? I really don't know. I dont follow the clippers so i cannot tell you how much center Randolf has played. Was Stat not considered your center last year even though he's not a "true" center? Same with gasol for the Lakers? I just spitted out the stats as they were displayed and said so. I made NOTHING up. Get over it.

Beidrins strength is rebounding where he leads shaq 11.8 to 8.6. Shaq leads in scoring avg 16.4 to 14.1. Happy now? Not really sure what that proves though. Again, I simply took the stats off the site as they are posted to point out that Shaq is not arguably the best center in the west and several players have had better years. How ******** of me. Hehehehehe

 

[S_Nash]

I didn't like him even as a Laker and said so even as we were winning the titles.

Could you imagine cobbler and BIM sitting together at a Lakers game circa 03-04??

No one would've cheered.

 

[Covert Rain]

My point was never that he wasnt in the top 10 and you know it.

Now he is not top 10.



cobbler. Your rich. Trust me if nobody knows you don't like Shaq we all know now. Your objectivity cleared that up.

 

[cobbler]

Now he is not top 10.



cobbler. Your rich. Trust me if nobody knows you don't like Shaq we all know now. Your objectivity cleared that up.

Hmmmmmm... Where in there do you get that I say he's not top 10? Just the opposite is the truth. Maybe it's your lack of objectivity that makes you think he's one of the top 2 in the west. I have provided valid arguments that he isn't. Using your data I might add. What a ****.

 

[Covert Rain]

Hmmmmmm... Where in there do you get that I say he's not top 10? Just the opposite is the truth. Maybe it's your lack of objectivity that makes you think he's one of the top 2 in the west. I have provided valid arguments that he isn't. Using your data I might add. What a ****.

Nuff said.

 

[cobbler]

Nuff said.

Finally we agree on something.