Should Ayton be Traded?

[Mainstreet]

Right, and if Caleb Martin shows up here, he will be a backup, and that is not why he resigned with us.

That's a reach on a trade rumor. Maybe Martin shows up here, maybe not.

Okogie was a rotation player and sometimes starter for the Suns last season. We already know this.

 

[Germz249]

When did that start happening?

There was that video of them leaving UCLA after workouts.

Edit

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/news/phoenix-suns-stars-spotted-working-out-together

 

[BirdGangThing]

There was that video of them leaving UCLA (I think it was UCLA) after workouts.

Edit

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/news/phoenix-suns-stars-spotted-working-out-together

Thx man that's really good to see!

 

[Muggz]

I want Dame, Scoot, 3 first round picks from a poopy team, cash considerations and a promise that DA will not play when Portland plays the Suns. Or Forget it!

 

[Superbone]

I want Dame, Scoot, 3 first round picks from a poopy team, cash considerations and a promise that DA will not play when Portland plays the Suns. Or Forget it!

It's good that you have realistic expectations.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am impressed in how far Caleb Martin's game has improved since his University of Nevada days in Reno. You always need a hustle guy on a Championship squad. He could fill that role nicely.

The podcasts I have been listening to put the Nurkic for Ayton trade this way, either Ayton has been a major distraction behind the scenes, OR they don't want to trust their Championship run on a guy who doesn't always bring it. With Nurkic the Suns know he's not HALF as talented as Ayton, but it is the fit. When Nurkic is playing, his motor is high. You can depend on his effort. It is more consistent than Ayton's. When Ayton brings it, he blows Nurkic out of the water. It's just can you depend on it?

Gambo, and a couple other local sports guys that are around the Suns say it's not really the $30+ million salary. It's the history of Ayton's inconsistency. Ishbia ia willing to pay the salary. Sounds like they just aren't sure on what he will bring, and if he can sustain that effort all season long.

Me, just from a talent standpoint and who is available, I want to roll with Ayton. One of the under rated parts of Ayton's game is he is one of the best screen setters in the league. He really does have excellent form on his screens, imho. That could work with the other four guys on the court. His shot blocking and rim protection has seemingly slipped from his rookie rookie year to now. That and solid rebounding effort is where I worry about him.

However, looking around the league at Centers available, and Ayton is better than what we may be able to trade for. Plus I see he has lately been rolling with Book and KD in off season training. Is he turning the corner on preparation and bonding with teammates?

I’m. Not surprised. Ishbia learned basketball from Izzo. Ever remember any players on Izzo’s teams not giving consistent effort? Me neither.

 

[Phrazbit]

I’m. Not surprised. Ishbia learned basketball from Izzo. Ever remember any players on Izzo’s teams not giving consistent effort? Me neither.

I agree, his teams have almost always punched above their weight, but... there are exceptions to every rule.

Zach Randolph was famously mercurial, insubordinate and... maybe crazy.

He also was teammates with Ishbia for a season.

Randolph was like "bizarro Ayton". They put up extremely similar stats, but Randolph was physical, almost recklessly so, his high school coach famously said that every day he woke up and Randolph hadn't been arrested was a good day. Randolph was also pretty dang selfish and was, despite his physicality, even in his best years, a really bad defender, he just didn't seem to care on that end.

 

[Proximo]

So now it is sounding like Toronto might be the frontrunner for Dame

Maybe that means we would get Nurkic and Anunoby - that fits salary wise.

I know Jones liked him quite a bit as well.

I would still rather not do that deal.

 

[Yuma]

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[Hoop Head]

So now it is sounding like Toronto might be the frontrunner for Dame

Maybe that means we would get Nurkic and Anunoby - that fits salary wise.

I know Jones liked him quite a bit as well.

I would still rather not do that deal.

That's a steal for the Suns. Nurkic is filler, OG is the prize and we'd have one of the most formidable 4 man squads ever in Booker, Beal, Anunoby, and KD.

I don't know why Toronto does that Dame deal though. Replacing VanVleet and Anunoby with Dame doesn't make them contenders. That's Portland East, basically.

 

[Proximo]

That's a steal for the Suns. Nurkic is filler, OG is the prize and we'd have one of the most formidable 4 man squads ever in Booker, Beal, Anunoby, and KD.

I don't know why Toronto does that Dame deal though. Replacing VanVleet and Anunoby with Dame doesn't make them contenders. That's Portland East, basically.

You obviously think much more highly of OG than I do.

His stats don't show him to be much more than an average player. He is better than Caleb Martin, but not much better and he is making more than twice as much. Also - and this is a big also - he is pretty injury prone.

It's a better deal I guess, but I still think it makes our team worse overall.

 

[Chaplin]

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What does that even mean?

 

[Proximo]

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What does a formality mean? It's all but a done deal?

 

[Proximo]

That's a steal for the Suns. Nurkic is filler, OG is the prize and we'd have one of the most formidable 4 man squads ever in Booker, Beal, Anunoby, and KD.

I don't know why Toronto does that Dame deal though. Replacing VanVleet and Anunoby with Dame doesn't make them contenders. That's Portland East, basically.

You know they have to be shipping out siakam in that deal too.

I kind of agree, I don't see how that makes them better.

 

[Chaplin]

You know they have to be shipping out siakam in that deal too.

I kind of agree, I don't see how that makes them better.

So Portland would get Ayton and Siakam? Is that legal money-wise? Where would Siakam go if it's not us?

 

[Proximo]

So Portland would get Ayton and Siakam? Is that legal money-wise? Where would Siakam go if it's not us?

Well they would have to - no way Portland is going to just take Ayton for Dame. Yes it should be legal, Dame makes like 50 Million a year.

 

[Chaplin]

Well they would have to - no way Portland is going to just take Ayton for Dame. Yes it should be legal, Dame makes like 50 Million a year.

I see you didn't check. No this wouldn't work. Siakam and Ayton together make 70 million dollars. Dame makes 45 and OG and Nurkic combined make 35.

EDIT: I'm wrong, I guess it could work, according to the trade machine. It would work for us trading Ayton for Nurkic and OG, I just don't have the brainpower this morning to figure out how it works for Toronto / Portland.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's a steal for the Suns. Nurkic is filler, OG is the prize and we'd have one of the most formidable 4 man squads ever in Booker, Beal, Anunoby, and KD.

I don't know why Toronto does that Dame deal though. Replacing VanVleet and Anunoby with Dame doesn't make them contenders. That's Portland East, basically.

I agree, getting OG Anunoby in the trade would be a coup, but he has a nearly $20 million player option next season.

I'd be concerned if the Suns could keep him long term.

 

[Chaplin]

You obviously think much more highly of OG than I do.

His stats don't show him to be much more than an average player. He is better than Caleb Martin, but not much better and he is making more than twice as much. Also - and this is a big also - he is pretty injury prone.

It's a better deal I guess, but I still think it makes our team worse overall.

Just curious, do you have numbers to back that up? He was easily a top 3 player on the Raptors last season, and without Van Vleet, is probably their 2nd best now. Plus he's an all-NBA defender, which we know Vogel loves.

EDIT: I just realized, if we get Nurkic, wasn't Eubanks Nurkic's backup last year too?

 

[Proximo]

Just curious, do you have numbers to back that up? He was easily a top 3 player on the Raptors last season, and without Van Vleet, is probably their 2nd best now. Plus he's an all-NBA defender, which we know Vogel loves.

EDIT: I just realized, if we get Nurkic, wasn't Eubanks Nurkic's backup last year too?

I measure all players by the stats on basketball reference - Basically what I look at is

Vorp, Offensive rating, defensive rating - and I do this because I have obviously watched a ton of Suns games and when I look at those number's comparatively to my own opinions of the Sun's players those numbers have seemed very accurate to me.

In OG's case - he has a 1.5 Vorp - which is better than average - 0 is average for all nba players. To put that in some perspective last year Okogie had a .6 Vorp, Nurkic a .7, Ayton a 1.5, Durant a 3.9, Booker a 2.9

Yes he is better than average - but when you take into account his injury history I have to lower it.

To me you need to look at the overall package

I mean technically Ayton 1.5 - Nurkic .7 is .8 worse
and OG 1.5 - Okogie .6 is .9 better

So according to that it makes us .1 better - but Ayton and Okogie are durable, Nurkic and OG are not.

Also, I feel like with Ayton we can be a running team, with Nurkic not so much, so I think the fit is just better.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I measure all players by the stats on basketball reference - Basically what I look at is

Vorp, Offensive rating, defensive rating - and I do this because I have obviously watched a ton of Suns games and when I look at those number's comparatively to my own opinions of the Sun's players those numbers have seemed very accurate to me.

In OG's case - he has a 1.5 Vorp - which is better than average - 0 is average for all nba players. To put that in some perspective last year Okogie had a .6 Vorp, Nurkic a .7, Ayton a 1.5, Durant a 3.9, Booker a 2.9

Yes he is better than average - but when you take into account his injury history I have to lower it.

To me you need to look at the overall package

I mean technically Ayton 1.5 - Nurkic .7 is .8 worse
and OG 1.5 - Okogie .6 is .9 better

So according to that it makes us .1 better - but Ayton and Okogie are durable, Nurkic and OG are not.

Also, I feel like with Ayton we can be a running team, with Nurkic not so much, so I think the fit is just better.

If your argument depends so much on availability, I'm not sure I can buy in. Both players have averaged roughly 60 games a season (OG leads by a hair). Ayton may be less injury prone, I wouldn't know, but availability is availability no matter what keeps them off the court AFAIC.

 

[Hoop Head]

ESPN+ has a potential Lillard to Toronto deal as...

Lillard as Kawhi 2.0?​

Toronto Raptors get: Damian Lillard

Portland Trail Blazers get: O.G. Anunoby, Chris Boucher, Thad Young, Gradey Dick and two first-round picks

I think Toronto needs to part with 3 picks at a minimum but provided that can easily include the Suns to send OG here, with Nurkic, and Ayton to Portland.

 

[Mainstreet]

I measure all players by the stats on basketball reference - Basically what I look at is

Vorp, Offensive rating, defensive rating - and I do this because I have obviously watched a ton of Suns games and when I look at those number's comparatively to my own opinions of the Sun's players those numbers have seemed very accurate to me.

In OG's case - he has a 1.5 Vorp - which is better than average - 0 is average for all nba players. To put that in some perspective last year Okogie had a .6 Vorp, Nurkic a .7, Ayton a 1.5, Durant a 3.9, Booker a 2.9

Yes he is better than average - but when you take into account his injury history I have to lower it.

To me you need to look at the overall package

I mean technically Ayton 1.5 - Nurkic .7 is .8 worse
and OG 1.5 - Okogie .6 is .9 better

So according to that it makes us .1 better - but Ayton and Okogie are durable, Nurkic and OG are not.

Also, I feel like with Ayton we can be a running team, with Nurkic not so much, so I think the fit is just better.

I look at it as getting the best trade return possible if the Suns decide to move on from Ayton. It appears they have. Without chemistry, stats can be meaningless.

Anunoby and Nukic is one of the better returns I have seen for Ayton. Also, I think Anunoby can play both forward positions, which provides some versatility.

 

[elindholm]

In OG's case - he has a 1.5 Vorp - which is better than average - 0 is average for all nba players.

Just a minor correction: VORP stands for Value Over Replacement Player, which means, how many wins did this player contribute compared to someone who is on the bubble of being in the league at all. Every NBA rotation player should have a positive VORP. A VORP of zero means that a G-league call-up is going to be just as effective.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Anunoby and Nukic is one of the better returns I have seen for Ayton. Also, I think Anunoby can play both forward positions, which provides some versatility.

It's far and away the best package we've heard of for Ayton, which makes me immediately suspicious. So far we've heard of joke packages from teams like Dallas, daring for us to give him away.

If the return is Anouby/Nurkic, it's probably as good as it's going to get. We'd have an incredible set of wings and some terrifying options for bigs.