Should Mark Grace retire?

[unc84steve]

I'm puzzled why on this board Matt Williams gets called a "lineup cancer," and an "oxymoron" as a cleanup hitter, when he leaves 4 men on base, and even has his fielding criticized. Yet on Sunday when we score only once, when Mark Grace leaves 6 men on base in 3 plate appearances (twice: 2-on 2 out, once 2nd & 3rd one out) the announcers say Gracie's "having a tough afternoon" & nothing is said on this board.

If you want to debate why I mistrust Mark Grace or whether I should be allowed to criticize such a fine fan-favorite because of my "irrational bias" against him, I'll be happy to start a separate "(OT)" (off topic) thread.

Meanwhile, it's obvious to me that Williams is the more useful player because he can play 3rd & 1st while Grace can't play 3rd.

Chad Tracy is hitting .416 & Alex Cintron is hitting .414 at Tucson. In March, (on the MLB board), I said it was unfair that Alex was sent down because Grace had a guarenteed spot, even though Cintron had a great spring. Alex is still playing hard.

This isn't an unexpected "slump" from an established star. This is how players reach the end of their careers. Here are facts (batting averages):

2001 .298
2002 .252
2003 .174

The question is what's more important, Mark Grace's ego & feelings (and his fans' ) or what's going to help the 2003 D'backs win games? It's a tough, but instructive decision about Mark Grace & the D'backs.

 

[Dback Jon]

Great post, unc84steve - I would give Grace a bit more time to pull himself right/retire with dignity, but bringing Tracy up and using Matt in the 1B rotation is brilliant.


BTW - I take from your name that you are a Tar Heel?

 

[AZCB34]

You answered your own question. It is because Grace IS a fan favorite due to his dealings with fans and Williams isn't. This is as much a popularity contest as it is a baseball contest when it comes to discussing players.

I am a BIG Grace fan going back to that fact that I am a big Cubs fan and it is disappointing to me to see him hanging on and not being as productive. I wanted him to walk away after the Dbacks won the Series (knew he wouldn't)...but then again we always want our players to walk away on top.

Great post though.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by unc84steve
I'm puzzled why on this board Matt Williams gets called a "lineup cancer," and an "oxymoron" as a cleanup hitter.

One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.

Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!

Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)

Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?

 

[DWKB]

Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by BC867
One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.

Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!

Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)

Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?

Ha! Classic....

BC867, you're satire is incredible. This is the funniest post I have seen in months!!

Bravo, bravo!!

 

[Dback Jon]

Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by BC867
One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.

Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!

Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)

Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?

Matt does great if Brenly would use him properly......

 

[az240zz]

What does " Matt would do great if Brenly used him properly" mean?

It is obvious that Williams and Grace no longer have the offfensive skills that they had in their prime. Should they have retired, probably. Would the team be bettar off the guys down in Tucson? Maybe there is no telling if they would have hit MLB pitching as well as they are Triple A pitching.

Since no one except Gonzalez is pencilled in everyday it is hard to tell if anyone can contribute day in day out.

Az240z

 

[unc84steve]

Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by BC867
One of the two stood in the way of a trade to bring a legitimate cleanup hitter to the D'backs . . . then stunk up the cleanup spot himself.

Matty made his bed and now must sleep in it!

Grace, on the other hand, stepped aside as a regular, and is mentoring his replacement and doing it well. (Lyle Overbay is batting .340, and is leading the team in doubles, tied for 2nd in HR, 4th in RBI's, etc.)

Williams is hurting us; Grace is helping. Don't you see the difference?

I think I see.

Mark Grace volunteered to be a "mentor" because he felt pressure as a Cubs rookie without such guidance. Since Grace knew there'd even be more pressure on the rookie Overbay if the "fan favorite" got off to a good start, Mark is "helping" by leaving runners on base, fielding poorly & even going 0-for-5 in LA so Lyle won that game with a HR. And now Mark is preparing us for vacating a valuable roster spot that will go to a better player.

Box Score of Ariz 6-4 win at LA

Meanwhile "old selfish Matt Williams" plays defense beautifully, and takes sure outs with cutoff plays. He alertly takes extra bases when throws miss cut-off men so other hitters aren't blamed for double plays. He hits LH-pitchers well. Because he contributes in non-flashy ways, he's hogging a roster spot because some think winning games with "little things" do matter. But that's really "hurting us"--because it's not really about winning games (see the last question of my original post).

Do I see the difference clearly?

 

[AZ Shocker]

The real difference is that Matt has sucked for 4-5 years while playing virtually everyday, and Grace, whom does NOT play every day this year is struggling only this year?

Matt only wants to hit a homerun. He will not put his bat on the ball for a single. He's the most stubborn player I've seen play in over 25 years. How many RBI's does he have?

Rank GP R 1 2 3 HR RBI SH SF SB BB K
Williams: 568 16 7 7 1 0 1 3 0 1 0 4 11
Grace: 639 12 2 2 2 0 0 2 0 1 0 1 0

Matt's played in more games, but only has 1 more RBI than Grace while striking out 11 times. This is NOT an endorsment for Grace, he is struggling...but more why Williams should be on the bench permenently!

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by az240zz
What does " Matt would do great if Brenly used him properly" mean?

It is obvious that Williams and Grace no longer have the offfensive skills that they had in their prime. Should they have retired, probably. Would the team be bettar off the guys down in Tucson? Maybe there is no telling if they would have hit MLB pitching as well as they are Triple A pitching.

Since no one except Gonzalez is pencilled in everyday it is hard to tell if anyone can contribute day in day out.

Az240z

Borrowing from DWKB:

Against Lefties, Williams stats:
AVG * AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K HBP SB CS GDP OBP SLG OPS
.350 9 20 5 7 1 0 1 3 2 1 0 0 0 1 .391 .550 .941

Against Righties:
.077 15 26 2 2 0 0 0 0 2 10 1 0 0 0 .172 .077 .249

Clear now?

 

[Cland]

Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Great post unc84steve. Even though I am a huge Grace fan I do agree with you here. Because he's a fan favorite everyone seems to overlook his struggles yet Matty gets crucified every time he flies out. However, I do disagree with saying that Grace felt pressured as a rookie without guidance. He had plenty of guidance when Durham who took him in. To me itt seems like he's returning the favor to Overbay.

No matter how they're perceived by the media both guys are struggling mightily.

BC867, why are you so obsessed with trying to rip Matty?

 

[RLakin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by Cland
He had plenty of guidance when Durham who took him in.

There's any important distinction between guidance and impeding a young players progress.

Grace is definitely playing the mentor role for 26 year old Overbay this year, like Durham did for him in 88' and unlike what Grace did for a 26 year old Durazo in 01'.

And before you start pulling out the injury card on me, Durazo spent a whopping 16 games on the DL in 01' all while Grace enjoyed the majority of unwarranted playing time.

This year Grace has stepped aside for Overbay and Lyle's at bat projections are very similar to Grace's in 1988.

And while I wasn't in favor of re-signing the man, I can swallow his limited pinch hitting role a little easier the salary of a right handed platoon third baseman who makes 10 times as much.

 

[Dback Jon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by RLakin

And while I wasn't in favor of re-signing the man, I can swallow his limited pinch hitting role a little easier the salary of a right handed platoon third baseman who makes 10 times as much.

What difference does Matty's salary have to do with anything?
The contract was signed 5 years ago - get over it.

 

[RLakin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by Dback Jon
What difference does Matty's salary have to do with anything?
The contract was signed 5 years ago - get over it.

Oh, only about a 10 million dollar difference.

Baseball's best team, the Yankees, outspent the D-Backs by $29 million or roughly 30% of their payroll last season. That gap has widened even further this year. With that being said, how does it not matter that D-Backs are using 1/3 of the salary gap between baseball's best team and themselves on a player who some believe could make a valuable platoon player?

And you say that it was signed 5 years ago. So what? Does that make it any better than if were signed last year, this year, or 5 minutes ago. Of course not. Your argument is that we should be perfectly content with an overzealous contract because it was signed 5 years ago seems to imply that mediocrity at an excessive price is acceptable for the length of that deal. And to pretend that salaries don’t matter in baseball is ridiculous considering the current economical climate and it also implies that there is no distinction between someone like Curt Schilling and Mike Myers. Like Myers, Mark Grace is a role player that makes $1.75 million this year while Schilling and Williams both pull in $10 mill. Now tell me, do you really view Williams on an equal playing field w/ Schilling? If not, how can you not be outraged by his being paid the exact same. Oh, I already know. Because the contract was signed 5 years ago.

 

[Dback Jon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by RLakin
Oh, only about a 10 million dollar difference.

Baseball's best team, the Yankees, outspent the D-Backs by $29 million or roughly 30% of their payroll last season. That gap has widened even further this year. With that being said, how does it not matter that D-Backs are using 1/3 of the salary gap between baseball's best team and themselves on a player who some believe could make a valuable platoon player?

And you say that it was signed 5 years ago. So what? Does that make it any better than if were signed last year, this year, or 5 minutes ago. Of course not. Your argument is that we should be perfectly content with an overzealous contract because it was signed 5 years ago seems to imply that mediocrity at an excessive price is acceptable for the length of that deal. And to pretend that salaries don’t matter in baseball is ridiculous considering the current economical climate and it also implies that there is no distinction between someone like Curt Schilling and Mike Myers. Like Myers, Mark Grace is a role player that makes $1.75 million this year while Schilling and Williams both pull in $10 mill. Now tell me, do you really view Williams on an equal playing field w/ Schilling? If not, how can you not be outraged by his being paid the exact same. Oh, I already know. Because the contract was signed 5 years ago.

No - the point is the contract is 5 years old, and Matt makes what the team signed him too. End of story. No point in bitching about it. All I care about is on field performance. Is Matt worth $10 million this year? No, but so what? He is hitting better than Grace, so play him when appropriate.

Why do you get your panties in such a bunch over what happened years ago??

Please, relax, and let go of your anger/jealousy.

 

[RLakin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by Dback Jon
No - the point is the contract is 5 years old, and Matt makes what the team signed him too. End of story. No point in bitching about it. All I care about is on field performance. Is Matt worth $10 million this year? No, but so what? He is hitting better than Grace, so play him when appropriate.

Why do you get your panties in such a bunch over what happened years ago??

Please, relax, and let go of your anger/jealousy.

Nice post. Like many, my anger exists only because we believe that in an already lopsided market, money is a performance based asset rather than a hindrance towards making a better baseball team. And while you may think that giving a financial leg up to the already advantaged competition is merely a side effect of poor contractual dealings in the past, at least those that care enough to speak out against this concept of "expensive mediocrity" have their hearts set upon having a better baseball team in the future, rather than those who are content with players that they willingly admit aren’t worth the price that they’re paying for.

So how can you say that all you care about is on-the-field performance when you implicitly admitted that the team would have better things to do w/ 1/10th of an already disadvantaged payroll?

 

[unc84steve]

I understand why people may be angry at Matt Williams for a foolish $50 million contract Jerry Colangelo agreed to 5 years ago including the no-trade clause which was an extra perk (as we saw last year). IMO, Matty is a great target because he focuses on doing his baseball job and isn't that great at PR. Some fans have had 5 years to build & keep their grudge. But nothing can be done about the $10M that was agreed to 5 years ago.

Similarly nothing can be done about the $1.75 M agreed to less than 5 months ago given to Mark Grace ("terms not disclosed" are on ESPN. com).

Link to Diamondback Salaries

IMO, it's ludicrous to say that Grace is off to a bad start just this year. His batting average dropped 46 points between 2001 & 2002--that's his main job. His power & fielder were down, the only bright spot was his pitching--but I think we're covered there.

Mark Grace year-by-year batting stats

Matt Williams year-by-year batting stats

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by unc84steve
I understand why people may be angry at Matt Williams for a foolish $50 million contract Jerry Colangelo agreed to 5 years ago including the no-trade clause which was an extra perk (as we saw last year). IMO, Matty is a great target because he focuses on doing his baseball job and isn't that great at PR. Some fans have had 5 years to build & keep their grudge. But nothing can be done about the $10M that was agreed to 5 years ago.

Similarly nothing can be done about the $1.75 M agreed to less than 5 months ago given to Mark Grace ("terms not disclosed" are on ESPN. com).

Not true. Retirement (the subject of the very thread you started) would clear both, which is at the heart of your question "what's going to help the 2003 D'backs win games?"
I would add salary to the list of sacrifices that you already said included ego and feelings, and the first (salary) of those factors is probably the most pertinent when attempting to answer your (above) question.
So with that being said, it is very ridiculous to put Matt Williams and Mark Grace on an equal statistical playing field when one is costing 1/10th that the other is making. Just as it would be for Myers (1.75 mill) and Schilling (10 mill). And just so I can avoid the childish "bias" tag, I don’t believe either Grace or Williams should be on this team.

 

[green machine]

I think what it comes down to is neither are really helpful to the team on the field. Grace is good for the team off the field, brings in some Cubs fans I'm sure. Williams makes a ton of money. It sucks, but not much we can do. I do wish players like him, Stottlemyre last year, and so on would just take pay cuts to help the team. These supposed "great competitors, team leaders" are actually hindering the team. Is it possible that Matty's presense cost us Colbrunn?

adam

 

[schillingfan]

While Durazo was not on the DL much in 1981, he wasn't available to play a good chunk of that time because of the shot to the jaw that Terry Schumpert gave him. He was pretty ineffective for most of the summer.

Grace is in the way of Alex Cintron. Matty is in the way of numerable very good players the D-Backs could have signed if they didn't have to pay him $10 mil - Edgardo Alfonso would have looked lovely in a D-Backs uniform instead of the Gnats this year.

The fact that Williams is being paid $10 mil kept the D-Backs from signing anyone else to the team. Cintron appears to be at best a utility player. Matty is the every day 3B, Grace is the last option on the best.

The difference between Cintron and Grace is probably marginal.

Play Matty at 3B against lefties, play Counsell at SS against lefties in place of Womack.

 

[Rudy P]

For years, people have been saying the Diamondbacks age and salaries would eventually catch up to them. It appears to be doing so now. It is called "paying the piper", you got the goods, now you gotta pay the price. And every one seems upset at the players about this? What about ownership? Or, how about the fact that the reckless spending that is hindering the team now led to the World Championship?

BC867 -- you're hatred of Matt Williams is ludicrous. You are upset at him for not accepting a trade that could have helped the Diamondbacks. Why should Matt Williams put your needs above his own? If you were working for a company and they tried to transfer you, but you had the option of staying in the city you love, where your kids live, would you pass up on that opportunity to please a bunch of people you never met?

 

[BC867]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Mark Grace retire?

Originally posted by Cland
BC867, why are you so obsessed with trying to rip Matty?

That's a valid question, Cland.

I don't like hypocrites, and Matt Williams is a hypocrite.

Hiding behind his kids when it suits him. Sure, it's embarassing to be traded with 3 other players for a productive cleanup hitter, but that's what he's worth on the market.

But previously, announcing that he'd like to finish his career with the Giants.
The thought of leaving Arizona didn't bother him then.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1990, when my company transferred me to Albuquerque for a year, after I was divorced, I paid to fly my two sons over every other weekend. And I was earning $51,000 per year . . . not $10 million. I know the importance of staying close with your kids.

Matt seems to know it when it's convenient to him!

Yes, I resent him killing the trade. This would have been a different team with Gonzo and Walker 3-4 in the batting order!

 

[unc84steve]

Based on this clubs past generosity, I'm assuming that any "retirement plan" for Mark Grace would include his $1.75 M (which is less than one-sixth of $10 mill--Grace's contract also was negotiated in this year's depressed market BTW).

Again, the past is irrelevant. Nobody would give back money they are entitled to. But nobody is entitled to a roster spot.

Let's agree it was "selfish" for Matt Williams to refuse to "help the Diamondbacks" get a legit cleanup hitter (Larry Walker) by invoking the no-trade clause the club agreed to. (Let's assume the "Larry Walker also vetoed the trade" is polite PR.

Would it not be equally "selfish" for Mark Grace not to "trade" his roster spot for a coaching spot? This would allow a much more productive player like Chad Tracy or Alex Cintron step up. Grace could still help Lyle Overbay, as Matty "mentored" Chad.

If things didn't work out, Mark could "un-retire" like fellow Cubs teammate Ryne Sandberg or fellow Chicago sports legend Michael Jordan.

 

[Forrestham]

Wow some fan passion toinght. Wish the players showed this much when they hit. Maybe the Dbacks should dump Murphy and make Grace the full time hitting coach. Neither Grace or Williams have been productive. I have been very critical of Williams on this board. While I realize the hitting woes are not just Williams, it is safe to say having to pay $10 mil for an unproductive player cost them Colbrunn, Alfonso or Rolen or other productive hitters. We have had this argument before. I am a dbacks fan 1st. I am not really concerened what was best for Matt but with his salary it can ease a lot of problems

 

[DWKB]

I think this line of discussion is just of the path in the main issue. uncsteve's questions shouldn't have been "Should Grace retire?", it should have been "Should the DBacks waive Grace?"

IMO, yes. Grace's $1.75M and < .500 OPS (with no obvious split) are much easier to drop right now than Matty's $10M.


We are not gonna waive Matty. We can't afford to waive Matty. So we might as well use him when he can help the team, and this has been pointed out obviously several times on this board when Matty is a useful player. Waiving Grace has more upside than downside and compared to waiving Matty it looks like genius.

SF, I don't know how you have knowledge of Durazo's little league stats when he was 7 years old (1981?!?) but I'm sure you're right that he wasn't on the DL much that year