Should the Suns keep Ryan McDonough as GM

[Mainstreet]

I wish he hadn't done that but I understood why so it doesn't really bother me. And it's turned out that he was right (arguably) on everything about that move except for his valuation of Knight. Anyway, here's my main list of Ryan issues. I left the hiring of Watson out of this group because we just don't know how that went down. I don't think Sarver is as hands on as some think he it but I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that Sarver influenced that hire.

1. Getting into a very public "I know you are but what am I" fight with Goran. Dragic was completely in the wrong but McD needed to be the adult rather than crawling into the sandbox with Goran.

2. Constantly defining players as trade chips.

3. Paying a premium to draft a high risk prospect. We gave away far too much to get Chriss. He's the type of player that you draft in the mid teens and hope you get lucky. He was not the type of player that you throw away a solid Euro player like Bogdan along with 2 draft picks.

4. Drafting Len. Alex was an unremarkable player in college, his one shining moment coming against a disappointing Nerlens Noel. Add to that his injury problem and it was just a bad gamble.

5. Not trading Bledsoe prior to shutting down veterans last season. I don't blame Ryan for the way it ended but if he had a chance to move Eric for decent value either at the deadline or around the draft, he was foolish for not taking it.

6. Shooting his mouth off about beating Boston out of a Josh Jackson meeting.

7. Spending a top 4 pick on a player for which there was virtually no game footage.

I don't know how they stack up to his successes but I do believe he's learned enough to avoid doing something similar as regards 1,2,6 and hopefully 7.

You touched on it with the Goran trade demand.

McDonough can make decisions out of anger for the lack of a better word. Acquiring Knight was a knee jerk reaction to losing Dragic. I think McDonough wanted Dragic to know he could be easily replaced.

McDonough trades Bledsoe over a tweet which he could have ignored for a better opportunity.

Also I believe McDonough traded Bogdon because he wanted to stay in Europe to get a larger paycheck. IMO, McDonough was miffed by this because he had sent a representative to Europe to convince him to come over a year earlier.

It goes on I'm sure.

I'm not going to criticize McDonough for drafting Len because it was a very weak draft. Bender was selected where many had him projected footage or not. Maybe the Suns scouted him?

However, I think McDonough can rise above mistakes and he is on his way up as a GM.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I know some people don't think it should matter but I can't help but consider who would take over for McD if he's fired. In addition to who would replace him, how long it would take to replace him needs to be considered also. How long is more important than who, at this stage. Could the Suns hire his replacement before the draft? I'm not sure.

The draft is almost three months away. If they couldn't figure out a replacement within a month, they're completely hopeless anyway... and that could have already started.

It took the Cavs over a month last offseason to replace David Griffin. Their new GM was not in place for the beginning of free agency or the draft itself. If the Suns ended up in a similar position that could be disastrous. I think it's somewhat safe to assume that James Jones would take over for McD, at least in the interim, and then the question needs to be asked are you comfortable with James Jones making our draft selection? Jones was hired last offseason as the assistant GM right after he retired as a player. He only has 1 year worth of experience working in an NBA front office and we don't know what he was tasked with throughout the year. I'm not more comfortable with Jones choosing our next head coach and making our draft selection than I am McD doing so.

If you're firing McD, Jones won't matter as I would assume you'd be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

It will take time to replace him and the time to fire him, if the Suns went that route, would have been earlier in the season. Probably after the Bledsoe fiasco. That would have given the Suns plenty of time during the season to bring someone in while the season was playing out. Not having a GM during the season wouldn't have been as bad as not having one to start the offseason, IMO. I'm not for McD being fired in general but I think firing him now would be a big mistake. Perhaps a bigger mistake than he would be capable of making this offseason. Give him the opportunity to cash in the assets he's acquired this offseason and reevaluate his position after the first month or two of the season next year.

So, after making the biggest two decisions that will determine the next decade with coach and our first pick, you then give him a month or two and then reevaluate? If you're that skittish and giving him that little leash, the team should just fire him. Otherwise, if you're giving him the opportunity to pick the new direction of the team with a new coach and top draft pick and FA, that new coach, top draft pick and FAs are going to need time to make an impact on this team. Personally, giving McD the chance to decide the next five years of the team making MASSIVE decisions this off-season seems like the definition of insanity.

 

[Mainstreet]

Another thing McDonough should be given credit for is keeping his hands out of the cookie jar building up assets to make a move this summer with the draft, trades and free agency.

I'm thankful Bledsoe's salary is gone and the Suns didn't pay Paul Millsap big dollars.

Also I am thankful the Suns will not offer DeMarcus Cousins a large contract or trade for Jrue Holiday.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Another thing McDonough should be given credit for is keeping his hands out of the cookie jar building up assets to make a move this summer with the draft, trades and free agency.

I'm thankful Bledsoe's salary is gone and the Suns didn't pay Paul Millsap big dollars.

Also I am thankful the Suns will not offer DeMarcus Cousins a large contract or trade for Jrue Holiday.

Not sure I can agree with this. His plan over multiple offseasons have been trying and failing to sign Aldridge or hoping to sign Griffin... both of whom would have lopped cap choking contracts that prob would have pushed us right into neverending mediocrity.

His failure to do so saved the team it’s flexibility now... but that doesn’t take away from the fact that those were his plans and they were awful to begin with. Landing in flexible position this offseason by plan. It actually came from his own previous failure to execute his plans.

 

[Mainstreet]

Not sure I can agree with this. His plan over multiple offseasons have been trying and failing to sign Aldridge or hoping to sign Griffin... both of whom would have lopped cap choking contracts that prob would have pushed us right into neverending mediocrity.

His failure to do so saved the team it’s flexibility now... but that doesn’t take away from the fact that those were his plans and they were awful to begin with. Landing in flexible position this offseason by plan. It actually came from his own previous failure to execute his plans.

It's sort of like a poker game. You can only play the cards dealt you.

I don't think it's fair to critique McDonough on the moves he never made.

 

[Chaplin]

It's sort of like a poker game. You can only play the cards dealt you.

I don't think it's fair to critique McDonough on the moves he never made.

Wait... what? He INTENDED to make those moves, the fact that he didn't is more luck of the draw then him having some sort of epiphany at the last second. He lost the battles for those players, and lucky that he did, because as Cheese said, it would have done nothing but bring us closer to the same mediocrity we've had for the majority of our existence.

Intentions show his frame of mind, whether they come to fruition or not. Why is it not fair to criticize him? He's earned the criticism.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's sort of like a poker game. You can only play the cards dealt you.

I don't think it's fair to critique McDonough on the moves he never made.

But he DID make a move for Aldridge. He just failed... thankfully. He can't get credit for "being smart and keeping flexibility" when the only reason he has that flexibility is he failed when he tried to make a move.

And all reports were that he was going to do the same with Griffin.

How can those things not be factored in? You say he was smart enough to leave us flexible but we are only flexible in spite of what he wanted to do with Aldridge when he failed to sign him there and by all reports wanted to do the same thing with Griffin.

Giving him ANOTHER opportunity to pull one of those moves this coming summer is just a recipe for disaster because at some point one of those players he shouldn't be going after might actually say YES.

 

[Chaplin]

But he DID make a move for Aldridge. He just failed... thankfully. He can't get credit for "being smart and keeping flexibility" when the only reason he has that flexibility is he failed when he tried to make a move.

And all reports were that he was going to do the same with Griffin.

How can those things not be factored in? You say he was smart enough to leave us flexible but we are only flexible in spite of what he wanted to do with Aldridge when he failed to sign him there and by all reports wanted to do the same thing with Griffin.

Giving him ANOTHER opportunity to pull one of those moves this coming summer is just a recipe for disaster because at some point one of those players he shouldn't be going after might actually say YES.

Seems to me that a majority of the Suns fans on this board are willing to give McD a pass this summer. I don't know if it's because they don't care about his mistakes or that he deserves another chance. I don't believe either one of those things, but there's almost no chance he's leaving this summer, so...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Seems to me that a majority of the Suns fans on this board are willing to give McD a pass this summer. I don't know if it's because they don't care about his mistakes or that he deserves another chance. I don't believe either one of those things, but there's almost no chance he's leaving this summer, so...

agree. and it's why I went days without bringing all these points up again.

But man, when I see a GM who's lead us from 48 wins... to 39 wins... to 24 wins... to 26 wins... to 20 wins... get labeled an "above average" GM, for some stupid reason I am compelled to respond.

Even more so when some say it was his plan to be as awful as we were the last two years and he's "accumulated all these assets and should get to spend them!" Going into this summer, the only asset he will have accumulated will be Miami's mid-1st-rounder. Yay.

Some will give credit for "accumulating" the worst record in basketball, but when you thought you were going to have a team fighting for the playoffs, which is what McD unbelievably thought going into the season, you don't get a pat on the back when that plan completely blows up in your face, forcing you to fire your coach (your 2nd!) and trade Bledsoe. This atrocity this season wasn't part of a plan... it was a plan that blew up in his face.

 

[AzStevenCal]

But he DID make a move for Aldridge. He just failed... thankfully. He can't get credit for "being smart and keeping flexibility" when the only reason he has that flexibility is he failed when he tried to make a move.

And all reports were that he was going to do the same with Griffin.

How can those things not be factored in? You say he was smart enough to leave us flexible but we are only flexible in spite of what he wanted to do with Aldridge when he failed to sign him there and by all reports wanted to do the same thing with Griffin.

Giving him ANOTHER opportunity to pull one of those moves this coming summer is just a recipe for disaster because at some point one of those players he shouldn't be going after might actually say YES.

Really? Do you have a source for this. I ask because it's the opposite of what I thought went on. We definitely made a big play for Aldridge and tried to even make a play for Lebron but Griffin was more of a courtesy call on our part. He expressed interest in us even though both Sarver and McDonough had each publicly confirmed our goal to compete by around 2020. When the agent calls for a meeting, it's usually not a good idea to just ignore it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Really? Do you have a source for this. I ask because it's the opposite of what I thought went on. We definitely made a big play for Aldridge and tried to even make a play for Lebron but Griffin was more of a courtesy call on our part. He expressed interest in us even though both Sarver and McDonough had each publicly confirmed our goal to compete by around 2020. When the agent calls for a meeting, it's usually not a good idea to just ignore it.

Why not? If they were going to wait for 2020, you think they just thought “Hey... sure, we’ll completely waste your time even though we’re not going to make an offer.”

That’s not good business, especially when dealing with agents... who you already prob have a bad name with in general after all the dirty laundry aired/acrimonious contract negotiations for players crap McD’s been through.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Really? Do you have a source for this. I ask because it's the opposite of what I thought went on. We definitely made a big play for Aldridge and tried to even make a play for Lebron but Griffin was more of a courtesy call on our part. He expressed interest in us even though both Sarver and McDonough had each publicly confirmed our goal to compete by around 2020. When the agent calls for a meeting, it's usually not a good idea to just ignore it.

https://www.clipsnation.com/2017/6/...iffin-scheduled-to-meet-with-suns-on-july-1st

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...ppers-star-blake-griffin-meet-suns/441212001/

Nowhere do I see that the Suns were making a courtesy call to Griffin before he resigned with the Clippers.

By the way... here was another great plan that didn't come to fruition... a proclamation McD made at the end of 2016 off-season that 2017 off-season was going to be a big one for FA!

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/08/25...plan-to-be-major-players-in-2017-free-agency/

I'm only posting that to show there has seemingly NEVER been a long-term plan... or even short term plan... just plans made that God laughs at repeatedly, which finds the team with worse and worse records every year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

https://www.clipsnation.com/2017/6/...iffin-scheduled-to-meet-with-suns-on-july-1st

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...ppers-star-blake-griffin-meet-suns/441212001/

Nowhere do I see that the Suns were making a courtesy call to Griffin before he resigned with the Clippers.

By the way... here was another great plan that didn't come to fruition... a proclamation McD made at the end of 2016 off-season that 2017 off-season was going to be a big one for FA!

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/08/25...plan-to-be-major-players-in-2017-free-agency/

I'm only posting that to show there has seemingly NEVER been a long-term plan... or even short term plan... just plans made that God laughs at repeatedly, which finds the team with worse and worse records every year.

They had a plan, they changed it. Once the TV contract money came into play, Ryan convinced Sarver to try a different approach. If you search you will also find quotes from Sarver and Ryan about not chasing free agents. Those quotes come from just before and just after the scheduled meeting with Blake.

As for the Griffin meeting, what purpose would it serve to announce it as a courtesy call? It defeats the purpose of having the meeting in the first place. Everything that came out of the organization at that time was that we had a timeline in place and we were sticking with it. There was never any suggestion from the Suns side that we were actually in pursuit of Griffin. There was a rumor just prior to Griffin that we were in on Millsap. I do think we came close to abandoning our timeline but it was for Millsap rather than Griffin. The agent arranged Griffin meeting was the same thing we saw for years with the Cards, just another leverage call.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't think there was ever a serious plan to acquire Griffin. There are a few rumors out there but they're just that, rumors, with no ties to the Suns organization. McD has kept a lid on all of his deals, I highly doubt he let info slip about signing Griffin when that was the exact opposite of what he and Sarver were saying to the media, fans, and season ticket holders. I know I posted a link before about a meeting that Sarver and McD had with season ticket holders last March telling them they weren't going after any big name free agents and they were looking to build through the draft and they'd like patience from folks. Griffin's party was the side that put info out about possibly signing with Phoenix but then he agreed to a huge deal with the Clippers before he even met with any other teams. I think that was purely posturing on his team's end to get the max from LA and they got it. They never intended on signing with Phoenix.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wow. You are a tough bunch. To hold deals against him that you think he would have made but didn’t and afterward turned out badly for other teams. It’s a lot of presuming.

1. Presumes he actually tried to make the deal.
2. Presumes he would have made the exact same offer.
3. Presumes that player would have worked out the same way here that he did elsewhere.

 

[Hoop Head]

So in the case of Aldridge and Griffin, is it a negative mark against every team that was rumored to sign them and couldn't or is it just a negative for McD and the Suns?

He met with the Rockets, Mavericks, Suns, Raptors, Heat, and Lakers in addition to Portland and San Antonio. I highly doubt those teams fans bash their GM for failing to sign him.

The only team that should be graded negatively for failing to sign Aldridge is Portland since they could offer him the most money and that was his team but he didn't want to stick around any longer. The Blazers have actually been just as good, if not a little better, without him though. So they gambled some trying to keep him when they really didn't need to do so to be a playoff team.

Signing Aldridge or Griffin might not have helped the Suns all that much but we don't know how much it would have for sure, that's impossible to predict. If the Suns wouldn't have improved with them why bash McD for not signing them?

 

[Chaplin]

You guys enjoy your boy Ryan McDonough, while the rest of us will be upset with simply settling, because that's what you're doing. And that's what the Suns are doing. And honestly? I'm not sure McD has the cajones to force Sarver to pony up big money for a coach, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Mainstreet]

So in the case of Aldridge and Griffin, is it a negative mark against every team that was rumored to sign them and couldn't or is it just a negative for McD and the Suns?

He met with the Rockets, Mavericks, Suns, Raptors, Heat, and Lakers in addition to Portland and San Antonio. I highly doubt those teams fans bash their GM for failing to sign him.

The only team that should be graded negatively for failing to sign Aldridge is Portland since they could offer him the most money and that was his team but he didn't want to stick around any longer. The Blazers have actually been just as good, if not a little better, without him though. So they gambled some trying to keep him when they really didn't need to do so to be a playoff team.

Signing Aldridge or Griffin might not have helped the Suns all that much but we don't know how much it would have for sure, that's impossible to predict. If the Suns wouldn't have improved with them why bash McD for not signing them?

McDonough would have drawn criticism if he had not tried to sign Aldridge and shown interest in Griffin.

It's so easy for others to throw rocks.

 

[Chaplin]

McDonough would have drawn criticism if he not tried to sign Aldridge and shown interest in Griffin.

It's so easy for others to throw rocks.

I hope he enjoys the free pass you're giving him, because he sure isn't taking advantage of it yet. Question is, when does it expire? It started after the IT and Dragic trades, but it appears it has an open-ended expiration.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hope he enjoys the free pass you're giving him, because he sure isn't taking advantage of it yet. Question is, when does it expire? It started after the IT and Dragic trades, but it appears it has an open-ended expiration.

McDonough does not have a free pass as far as I am concerned.

If he muffs the coaching hire and makes the wrong moves this summer, I will not refrain from criticizing him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You guys enjoy your boy Ryan McDonough, while the rest of us will be upset with simply settling, because that's what you're doing. And that's what the Suns are doing. And honestly? I'm not sure McD has the cajones to force Sarver to pony up big money for a coach, but I hope I'm wrong.

I don't mean to sound aggressive here but you don't really have a clue what I'm doing. Or the Suns. I think Ryan has made some mistakes but he's a smart guy with family connections that has spent most of his life around sports. Assuming he's learning from his mistakes, I'd prefer he stayed and I don't care for your assumption that any of us that disagree with you must be doing it because we're just settling.

All in all though, I don't really care if we fire Ryan. I'm just not convinced it's the right thing. But he's made enough mistakes to justify his exit (probably true of most GMs early on) so I won't be upset if we decide to move on.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't mean to sound aggressive here but you don't really have a clue what I'm doing. Or the Suns. I think Ryan has made some mistakes but he's a smart guy with family connections that has spent most of his life around sports. Assuming he's learning from his mistakes, I'd prefer he stayed and I don't care for your assumption that any of us that disagree with you must be doing it because we're just settling.

Tell me how it's NOT settling? The guy has proven that he can't build a winning team. I myself gave him the benefit of the doubt, and I was happy with the Payton trade that looked good for about a week, but since then has been terrible. I don't know if he just has a blind spot for point guards or not.

Now, I'm definitely more upset with the coaching situation, and that is my biggest worry. He need to prove that he's worthy of being the GM of the Phoenix Suns, not just a GM in the NBA. I could care less if he was GM of the Charlotte Hornets, but I hold our front office to a higher standard -- Sarver has failed that spectacularly, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect greatness from a GM. We've been without a title for 50 years. Enough is enough.

All in all though, I don't really care if we fire Ryan. I'm just not convinced it's the right thing. But he's made enough mistakes to justify his exit (probably true of most GMs early on) so I won't be upset if we decide to move on.

I'm convinced that moving on from Ryan would be a good thing, however, there is still that sliver of hope that he can climb out of this hole he's dug for himself and and show some competence. Only problem is, that isn't going to be enough IMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Tell me how it's NOT settling? The guy has proven that he can't build a winning team.

Tell me how it is settling? If I held the same opinion of him that you and Cheese do and was still in favor of just keeping him, THEN, I'd be settling. But we have a difference of opinion. We do not have one side analyzing the situation and making a reasoned plea for his termination while the other side just sits there and says "oh well, let's just settle for what we have".

 

[Cheesebeef]

McDonough would have drawn criticism if he not tried to sign Aldridge and shown interest in Griffin.

It's so easy for others to throw rocks.

It’s much easier when someone deserves to get stoned.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just as easy as it is burying your head in the sand.

If it will help me get over this flu, I'll try most anything once.