Should the Suns keep Ryan McDonough as GM

[pokerface]

Then find other ways to do it. Forcing healthy players to sit (especially ones that are in the future plans) is a very poor idea.

Booker isn't all that healthy though. Plus if we got Ayton or Bagley.. wouldn't they be in our future plans? Is Booker enough on his own to take us where we want to go?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Booker isn't all that healthy though. Plus if we got Ayton or Bagley.. wouldn't they be in our future plans? Is Booker enough on his own to take us where we want to go?

Well I edited my post to suggest we could sit out guys like Len and Chandler to take away any sort of interior defense. As for Booker he will be plenty healthy going forward as he was just a little banged up. All I'm saying is that we can find more creative ways to tank than to simply sit out the two best players when they are healthy.

 

[pokerface]

Well I edited my post to suggest we could sit out guys like Len and Chandler to take away any sort of interior defense. As for Booker he will be plenty healthy going forward as he was just a little banged up. All I'm saying is that we can find more creative ways to tank than to simply sit out the two best players when they are healthy.

I know it's distasteful to sit Booker...and Payton too for that matter. But maybe minutes should be limited?

I'd hate for us to blow this draft when we are two thirds into the season and in the final stretch. Bender and Chriss are light years from where we need them to be. This team needs more help.

 

[SirStefan32]

You can't sit young, competitive guys. Let them play. Rest them if they are even slightly hurt, but that's about it. Their remaining schedule is tough. There is no need to blatantly tank.

 

[Hoop Head]

Instead of sitting someone I think the Suns will experiment with their lineup more and give big minutes to Len in an effort to tank. Len and Ulis playing starters minutes would probably work better than sitting Booker and Payton. See a lot of smallball lineups with Ulis & Payton playing together in the backcourt with Booker & Jackson or Warren as their forwards and Len as the Center.

What's sad is I can't think of a lineup of all shooters that the defense would need to guard. They only have Booker, Daniels, and Bender as guys who need to be guarded behind the 3pt line. Maybe Dudley as another shooter but a lineup of Payton, Daniels, Booker, Dudley, and Bender isn't going to scare any team and their opponent would be able to light them up when they get them on defense since Bender is the only average defender of that bunch and Payton is probably the best rebounder of the 5. The Suns shouldn't sign anyone this offseason that shoots below 35% from 3.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That is absolutely true! The longer we build a loser's mentality ... the longer we build a loser's mentality. That seems to be all that Sarver and McDonough know. And posts like the one that Errntkngt voiced.

I understand the "hope" of finally lucking out in the draft. But that is LAZY management. We finally have a Point Guard with the tools to be a true facilitator and help the rest of this "young" team, which will get even younger if we're counting on draft picks.

And finally one who can play defense in the backcourt and is capable of triple-doubles. And stepping up on the scoring side when Booker is out or being smothered. A rookie Point Guard in the draft isn't going to be able to pull that off.

Let's get a quality Center -- a rebounding and defensive specialist -- who will also help this "young" team. Then work on Power Forward.

The answer is proactive management, rather than lazy management. Making things happen vs. hoping that things happen.

And not alienate our existing young stars. We don't need Devin Booker texting from a hairdresser's, or anywhere else, that he wants to leave.

The leadership of this team is inexperienced, untalented, passive and pathetic. Phoenix Suns fans deserve a better approach.

Am I ? As long as the horse is still breathing. C'mon, guys, let's think in terms of getting the horse back on its feet. Let's start with a talented trainer and jockey after the end of the season.

That starts NEXT year. As long as we’ve blown this season and have ZERO expectations of signing impact free agents given our recent track record under current management why blow the one good chance we have at talent . . . the draft?

All this “loser mentality is impossible to unwind” (a) just isn’t true it happens ALL THE TIME with young teams and (b) 24 games isn’t going to make a difference in that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well I edited my post to suggest we could sit out guys like Len and Chandler to take away any sort of interior defense. As for Booker he will be plenty healthy going forward as he was just a little banged up. All I'm saying is that we can find more creative ways to tank than to simply sit out the two best players when they are healthy.

I’d agree with this unless the suns get on a roll. Then cue the back spasms.

 

[Errntknght]

You can't sit young, competitive guys. Let them play. Rest them if they are even slightly hurt, but that's about it. Their remaining schedule is tough. There is no need to blatantly tank.

Our schedule is not tough - we have 12 games remaining against >=500 teans and 11 against <500 teams.
Among the teams that are competing with us for the best draft slots, we have the best record against <500 teams except for Chicago (Who my stats indicate is not tanking.) Among that same group we have the best record in close games at 5-2. Those two stats along with one I'll describe below tell me that the Suns are not tanking, we're just bad. Many of those 11 are tanking hard so we have to tank just as hard the rest of the way.
I don't like the idea of sitting Book and Payton either but if we have to resort to it then I
believe we should. For most of the year Len was actually a positive factor though of late he's more his usual self - still I'd be careful. Playing Chriss and Bender more would help the tank as would playing Peters and Reed as neither had looked at all good. Ulis has been consistenty bad, too. House helps the tank and Daniel is neutral.


Tanking stat is computed as follows. I compute a stat called offensive efficiency which is the ratio of all the good results on offense to the all the bad results. Team defense is just the same stat computed for all your opponents. A teams overall rating is the difference between offense and defense - good teams are plus and bad teams are minus, of course. I add the overall rating to 41, which gives a projection of how many games the team 'should' win for the season. I also project the teams current record out to 82 games and look at the difference between the two projections. If teams actual record is worse than my stat projects that team is tanking. Of course, if they are only a few games below projection, then I would say its just due to random variation.
Historically, this has worked pretty well. Examples: Philly was the only team strongly tanking in their bad years. Minnesota was tanking every year until last year - in fact they probably weren't tanking they just couldn't win close games, if you recall. Cleveland with Lebron has consistenly won considerably more games than my projection and is doing it again this year. Generally, the Spurs have consistently been better that my projection though not so much this year. This year Boston is running well ahead. Year in and year out Phoenix has stayed within two games, ahead or behind, of my projection.
Right now Phoenix is 1 game ahead.
Tanking scores for our competition:
Dallas -11
Memphis -8
Sacramento -1
Charlotte -5
Knicks -4
Orlando -8
Atlanta -8
Brooklyn -5
Chicago 0

Far and away the strongest tanking signals across the league for a season.

 

[pokerface]

People need to get off of "What is Booker going to think" and start thinking about what WE are going to think if we play ourselves out of the top seven in the draft. If that were to happen it would be a major bummer on this board. Catastrophic even. I don't like peoples complacent attitudes towards the draft like somehow things will just work out. The suns need to make it happen not just sit back like bystanders.

 

[pokerface]

I’d agree with this unless the suns get on a roll. Then cue the back spasms.

If the suns get on a roll it could be too late by then...it could be game over.

 

[Raindog]

People need to get off of "What is Booker going to think" and start thinking about what WE are going to think if we play ourselves out of the top seven in the draft. If that were to happen it would be a major bummer on this board. Catastrophic even. I don't like peoples complacent attitudes towards the draft like somehow things will just work out. The suns need to make it happen not just sit back like bystanders.

Totally agree... no ifs, ands or buts, the Suns NEED another impact player badly if we want to start heading towards the "light" any time soon. And the only way that is happening is by maximizing our draft position, particularly in this loaded draft.

People who are worrying over "creating a losing culture" are being very shortsighted, in my opinion. The vast majority of teams in the history of pro sports that were REALLY good were most likely REALLY bad until they had a few great drafts that brought in top notch talent... and the vast majority of those draft picks were the result of being lousy in the right year with the right talent available in the draft.

 

[Hoop Head]

People need to get off of "What is Booker going to think" and start thinking about what WE are going to think if we play ourselves out of the top seven in the draft. If that were to happen it would be a major bummer on this board. Catastrophic even. I don't like peoples complacent attitudes towards the draft like somehow things will just work out. The suns need to make it happen not just sit back like bystanders.

It doesn't matter how people on this board react though. The Suns aren't taking cues from us. They should pay mind to what Booker has to say. They can't force him to sit out. They can put themselves in position to lose games even when he plays though. They can do that by giving big minutes to Ulis and Len. We'll see what happens because that's all we can do.

 

[pokerface]

It doesn't matter how people on this board react though. The Suns aren't taking cues from us. They should pay mind to what Booker has to say. They can't force him to sit out. They can put themselves in position to lose games even when he plays though. They can do that by giving big minutes to Ulis and Len. We'll see what happens because that's all we can do.

I said the suns need to make it happen. If that means sitting Booker I have no problem with that. He's not bigger than the team. The suns need another cornerstone piece...no matter what.

And yes they can force him to sit out. They sat Bledsoe...more than once. Now it's Bookers turn.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Our schedule is not tough - we have 12 games remaining against >=500 teans and 11 against <500 teams.
Among the teams that are competing with us for the best draft slots, we have the best record against <500 teams except for Chicago (Who my stats indicate is not tanking.) Among that same group we have the best record in close games at 5-2. Those two stats along with one I'll describe below tell me that the Suns are not tanking, we're just bad. Many of those 11 are tanking hard so we have to tank just as hard the rest of the way.
I don't like the idea of sitting Book and Payton either but if we have to resort to it then I
believe we should. For most of the year Len was actually a positive factor though of late he's more his usual self - still I'd be careful. Playing Chriss and Bender more would help the tank as would playing Peters and Reed as neither had looked at all good. Ulis has been consistenty bad, too. House helps the tank and Daniel is neutral.


Tanking stat is computed as follows. I compute a stat called offensive efficiency which is the ratio of all the good results on offense to the all the bad results. Team defense is just the same stat computed for all your opponents. A teams overall rating is the difference between offense and defense - good teams are plus and bad teams are minus, of course. I add the overall rating to 41, which gives a projection of how many games the team 'should' win for the season. I also project the teams current record out to 82 games and look at the difference between the two projections. If teams actual record is worse than my stat projects that team is tanking. Of course, if they are only a few games below projection, then I would say its just due to random variation.
Historically, this has worked pretty well. Examples: Philly was the only team strongly tanking in their bad years. Minnesota was tanking every year until last year - in fact they probably weren't tanking they just couldn't win close games, if you recall. Cleveland with Lebron has consistenly won considerably more games than my projection and is doing it again this year. Generally, the Spurs have consistently been better that my projection though not so much this year. This year Boston is running well ahead. Year in and year out Phoenix has stayed within two games, ahead or behind, of my projection.
Right now Phoenix is 1 game ahead.
Tanking scores for our competition:
Dallas -11
Memphis -8
Sacramento -1
Charlotte -5
Knicks -4
Orlando -8
Atlanta -8
Brooklyn -5
Chicago 0

Far and away the strongest tanking signals across the league for a season.

We actually have 17 games remaining against teams with a winning record and 6 games against teams with a losing record. Not sure where you found anything that suggests otherwise. Only teams we play with a losing record (as of right now) are Sac, Cha, Dal, Memphis, Atl and Orlando.

 

[SirStefan32]

I said the suns need to make it happen. If that means sitting Booker I have no problem with that. He's not bigger than the team. The suns need another cornerstone piece...no matter what.

And yes they can force him to sit out. They sat Bledsoe...more than once. Now it's Bookers turn.

At this point, yes, yes he is. Also, sitting Bledsoe worked out really well.

 

[BC867]

I find it depressing reading this thread about planned losing in hopes of lucking out in the draft. I have a suggestion for the tank crew. How about abandoning the word "tank" and replace it with "lose" and see how that feels to write and to read.

I still feel that tanking, I mean planned losing, is not proactive. Losing in the first degree. Premeditated. It is, as I've said once before, lazy management. Untalented management.

And, yes, I feel that any thought of benching Booker, will eventually have the same emotional reaction as it did with Bledsoe, and Bledsoe is nowhere near the talent that Booker is.

What we will gain in a higher draft pick we will lose in the attitude in our top players. Will we have really gained or will it be a wash? And, all the while, turning the Suns into a team that the league, opposing coaches and fans keep losing respect for.

Evidently Server and McDonough are perfect for this losing mentality.

 

[pokerface]

The suns are sitting pretty for the draft and you guys want to see that jeopardized??

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I find it depressing reading this thread about planned losing in hopes of lucking out in the draft. I have a suggestion for the tank crew. How about abandoning the word "tank" and replace it with "lose" and see how that feels to write and to read.

I still feel that tanking, I mean planned losing, is not proactive. Losing in the first degree. Premeditated. It is, as I've said once before, lazy management. Untalented management.

And, yes, I feel that any thought of benching Booker, will eventually have the same emotional reaction as it did with Bledsoe, and Bledsoe is nowhere near the talent that Booker is.

What we will gain in a higher draft pick we will lose in the attitude in our top players. Will we have really gained or will it be a wash? And, all the while, turning the Suns into a team that the league, opposing coaches and fans keep losing respect for.

Evidently Server and McDonough are perfect for this losing mentality.

You can replace tanking with losing and I have ZERO problem with it. You act like we don’t know they are one and the same. We do.

And the tank isn’t what makes a teammate te laughing stock. It did during “the process” until it became te norm. There’s an article on ESPN talking about the 8 team tank race this season. This is the new norm bud. Just like the super teams. It is what it is. To harp on it relentlessly is futile. I’m done harping in te super teams because until rules change they are here to stay. Maybe it’s time for you to to give up what have become antiquated views on tanking. Because your views end up being shortsighted. Hurray the suns go .500 in their last 24 games. Is that going to have a bigger impact on their long-term prospects than sitting Booker and getting a chance at a top 6 player? No. No way. And what’s going to drive Booker away more quickly, sitting him for some games in a lost season when he’s 21 or failing to get elite talent alongside him that goes to other teams who quickly surpass the suns win total for seasonS to come? Time to change, man. Time to change.

 

[BC867]

The suns are sitting pretty for the draft and you guys want to see that jeopardized??

We, myself included, can vent all we want. Since the same time last year, it is what it is.

How about this, pokerface? We make this our last hurrah.

If we wind up drafting high and get a player who will make this team better, without alienating any of our existing players, I'll say you were right and enjoy our climbing up the ranks starting next season.

But if next season plays the same as this season, and the latter part of last season, you'll abandon being the champion of planned losing.

'Deal?

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is arguing over nothing. This team does not have to try to lose and it is not necessary to sit anyone.

We are going to have a good pick regardless. We are going to get a top 7 player—-maybe top 4

 

[Cheesebeef]

You guys really think Booker doesn’t realize this team still needs a MASSIVE infusion of BIG-TIME talent... and that the BEST way to give him another star is in a loaded draft to rise with? He’s not an idiot.

He’s been here for years. He’s seen our FO try and fail miserably to bring in a star. Dude’s gotta know the best way to do that is hit paydirt in the lotto. Sitting might burn him up, but if this team somehow positions itself OUT of position to grab a true mega stud difference maker, not much is going to change in the future for wins and losses and THAT will be what drives him away.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is arguing over nothing. This team does not have to try to lose and it is not necessary to sit anyone.

We are going to have a good pick regardless. We are going to get a top 7 player—-maybe top 4

There’s a difference between getting a good player and a generational player.

 

[BC867]

You guys really think Booker doesn’t realize this team still needs a MASSIVE infusion of BIG-TIME talent... and that the BEST way to give him another star is in a loaded draft to rise with? He’s not an idiot.

He’s been here for years. He’s seen our FO try and fail miserably to bring in a star. Dude’s gotta know the best way to do that is hit paydirt in the lotto. Sitting might burn him up, but if this team somehow positions itself OUT of position to grab a true mega stud difference maker, not much is going to change in the future for wins and losses and THAT will be what drives him away.

Or working for a couple of dunderheads who have no skill in setting a plan to lead a team successfully. If we know it, I'm sure he knows it better.

 

[Raindog]

You can replace tanking with losing and I have ZERO problem with it. You act like we don’t know they are one and the same. We do.

And the tank isn’t what makes a teammate te laughing stock. It did during “the process” until it became te norm. There’s an article on ESPN talking about the 8 team tank race this season. This is the new norm bud. Just like the super teams. It is what it is. To harp on it relentlessly is futile. I’m done harping in te super teams because until rules change they are here to stay. Maybe it’s time for you to to give up what have become antiquated views on tanking. Because your views end up being shortsighted. Hurray the suns go .500 in their last 24 games. Is that going to have a bigger impact on their long-term prospects than sitting Booker and getting a chance at a top 6 player? No. No way. And what’s going to drive Booker away more quickly, sitting him for some games in a lost season when he’s 21 or failing to get elite talent alongside him that goes to other teams who quickly surpass the suns win total for seasonS to come? Time to change, man. Time to change.

All good points... if anyone thinks that Booker will be happy to stay with a team that in two more years is just floating along in mediocrity, you are likely to be surprised.

Again, those who refuse to accept the necessity of losing to get cornerstone franchise players are living in the past and ignorance of the present. I keep seeing people proposing the delusion that we can trade our "assets" (such as they are) for some up and coming superstar like Davis or Towns, or sign some elite FA who is desperate to play with Booker. Guess what? It's NOT happening... not ever. The only chance we will ever have again to be players on that elite level of franchise- ship is if we somehow can build the structure of an elite team BEFORE we can be considered as relevant enough .

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but those are the plain facts. And our only route to building that kind of franchise is to get lucky in the draft or be crappy enough to somewhat tilt the odds in our favor.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Or working for a couple of dunderheads who are not NBA calibre to lead a team successfully. If we know it, I'm sure he knows it better.

That’s my point, BC. He has to be smart enough to know the ONLY way REAL TALENT is coming here is in the draft... because whoever that is will have no choice! So, if he wants to make it work here, seems like he would understand that losing is the only way to give these idiots the best possible chance to NOT screw up this draft. And the only way to do that is by giving them the best possible chance to get the first pick.

I think he’s smart enough to get that this year. But we couldn’t get away with it again. This is the last stand, IMO. We either get Book some major talent this off-season, or I think we’re gonna be looking at dicey time’s sooner than later.