Should the Suns keep Ryan McDonough as GM

[SirStefan32]

Okay make up stuff when you’re losing an argument. Good stuff!

I was going to respond, but Mainstreet is doing a hell of a job showing us just who is losing this argument. Your dislike of McD is causing you to not think things through. In the exact same scenarios, you claim McD is lucky, and other GMs are good and smart.

 

[Hoop Head]

So Warren would be considered a good pick for McD since all of the mocks out there had him going around #20 and none had him as a lottery pick. If you look at those mocks the majority had the Suns taking a SG with their pick also. They already had Tucker and Marcus Morris as SF's on the roster but McD chose who he felt was the BPA even though there were 2 other SF's on the roster. Say it was groupthink if you want but since no mock's had him going to the Suns, or above them, I'd say he gets full credit for that. In addition to drafting him he deserves credit for resigning him to a very good extension. He signed him for an additional 4 years/$48 million without allowing him to hit restricted free agency where I imagine he would have received a larger offer elsewhere.

Looking at what other SF's have signed in the last year though you can see the value in Warren's contract. He is one of the lowest contracts that's been signed in the last year by around $3-4 million annually. Otto Porter signed for 4 years $104 million, James Johnson resigned in Miami for 4 years $60 million, Iguodala resigned in Golden State for 3 years $48 million, Joe Ingles signed for 4 years $52 million in Utah, PJ Tucker signed for 4 years $32 million in Houston, and Robert Covington signed for 4 years $62 million. Tucker is the only one who is getting less annually.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was going to respond, but Mainstreet is doing a hell of a job showing us just who is losing this argument. Your dislike of McD is causing you to not think things through. In the exact same scenarios, you claim McD is lucky, and other GMs are good and smart.

I'm sure Ouchie will find an example yet!

He is probably searching as we speak.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was going to respond, but Mainstreet is doing a hell of a job showing us just who is losing this argument. Your dislike of McD is causing you to not think things through. In the exact same scenarios, you claim McD is lucky, and other GMs are good and smart.

Twice in the last week two coaches have decided they didn’t even have to do their job and still beat us by 46 and 48. Call me crazy but that says more for the argument against McD than anything Mainstreet is laughably making for him.

Wake up guys. You’re making bigger fools out of yourselves than the Suns are.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm sure Ouchie will find an example yet!

He is probably searching as we speak.

Well, there are examples. Danny Ainge, for example is brilliant. Everyone had Fultz at #1. He traded down to #3 and got an extra future pick for it. Spurs make outstanding pick routinely. There are other examples, I am sure. There is an argument to be made that McD is not among the best, which... neither of us would argue, but he is certainly not terrible.

 

[SirStefan32]

Twice in the last week two coaches have decided they didn’t even have to do their job and still beat us by 46 and 48. Call me crazy but that says more for the argument against McD than anything Mainstreet is laughably making for him.

Wake up guys. You’re making bigger fools out of yourselves than the Suns are.

That's a purely emotional argument. I couldn't possibly care less about someone letting their assistant coach, or empowering their players to draw up some plays. Suns are a young, developing team, missing their best player, along with a few others. Not really upset about getting demolished by some of the best teams in the league. Hell, I could coach the Warriors to victory against the injury-depleted Suns.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was going to respond, but Mainstreet is doing a hell of a job showing us just who is losing this argument. Your dislike of McD is causing you to not think things through. In the exact same scenarios, you claim McD is lucky, and other GMs are good and smart.

A) I actually am ambivalent towards McD. I’ve stated it before. But the more this discussion unwinds the more I’m convinced his drafting success is a product of luck.

B) no not the same. You guys want to take his tenure pick by pick. In doing so you focus on the trees and lose the big picture of the Forrest. I am looking at his picks in relation to one and other. I’m seeking a pattern to discern skill. I see none. And none of you have pointed out one. When I look at the Donovan mitchel example I see that pick in the slot projected, so I don’t automatically give the Utah GM credit I look at the pick the same way I view the Booker pick. It’s only when I apply the lens of the Gobert pick that I begin to believe that the Donovan pick was based more in skill than luck in following groupthink. I don’t have a similar indicator for McD. Why is that so difficult for everyone to understand? Here’s a good example, although selected later reed was a head scratcher for most of us. Certainly not a product of groupthink projections. If he’s a stud then I start buying into mcd’s talent evaluation SKILL. But as yet there’s no indication that his selections are a result of skill.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So Warren would be considered a good pick for McD since all of the mocks out there had him going around #20 and none had him as a lottery pick. If you look at those mocks the majority had the Suns taking a SG with their pick also. They already had Tucker and Marcus Morris as SF's on the roster but McD chose who he felt was the BPA even though there were 2 other SF's on the roster. Say it was groupthink if you want but since no mock's had him going to the Suns, or above them, I'd say he gets full credit for that. In addition to drafting him he deserves credit for resigning him to a very good extension. He signed him for an additional 4 years/$48 million without allowing him to hit restricted free agency where I imagine he would have received a larger offer elsewhere.

Looking at what other SF's have signed in the last year though you can see the value in Warren's contract. He is one of the lowest contracts that's been signed in the last year by around $3-4 million annually. Otto Porter signed for 4 years $104 million, James Johnson resigned in Miami for 4 years $60 million, Iguodala resigned in Golden State for 3 years $48 million, Joe Ingles signed for 4 years $52 million in Utah, PJ Tucker signed for 4 years $32 million in Houston, and Robert Covington signed for 4 years $62 million. Tucker is the only one who is getting less annually.

Yes i believe you’re getting it. I think warren, at present, is his sole indicator of skill. But even that’s tempered by picked within range of his projections and he’s an average to above average player (won’t know until the suns are competitive imo).

As for the contract, by and large I think McD is a good negotiator. Here I’m solely focusing on talent evaluation. He’s done a good job of getting reasonable contracts ahead of the Pack.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm sure Ouchie will find an example yet!

He is probably searching as we speak.

Searching for what? I think the Utah scenario actually helps to cement my argument n

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well, there are examples. Danny Ainge, for example is brilliant. Everyone had Fultz at #1. He traded down to #3 and got an extra future pick for it. Spurs make outstanding pick routinely. There are other examples, I am sure. There is an argument to be made that McD is not among the best, which... neither of us would argue, but he is certainly not terrible.

I’m not even arguing he’s “terrible” - find one post where I’ve said, or even intimated, that. I’m saying I’m not certain he’s making picks based on skill or based on groupthink. I think the evidence points to the latter and that’s a ***** in his armor as a good GM.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's a purely emotional argument. I couldn't possibly care less about someone letting their assistant coach, or empowering their players to draw up some plays. Suns are a young, developing team, missing their best player, along with a few others. Not really upset about getting demolished by some of the best teams in the league. Hell, I could coach the Warriors to victory against the injury-depleted Suns.

Dude we have lost more games by 40pts THIS YEAR than we have in the ENTIRE 50+ years of the franchise existence. And I never remember any team being so comfortable that the head coach just decides to turn over coaching to his assistant or his players against any team. Any reaction to this team, front office and coaching staff is acceptable. They ARE the laughingstock of the league and I’ve been loathe to admit that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's a purely emotional argument. I couldn't possibly care less about someone letting their assistant coach, or empowering their players to draw up some plays. Suns are a young, developing team, missing their best player, along with a few others. Not really upset about getting demolished by some of the best teams in the league. Hell, I could coach the Warriors to victory against the injury-depleted Suns.

you're right. That wasn't embarrassing at all... and none of the Suns thought so either. Oh wait... numerous Suns actually bitched and complained about it.

 

[pokerface]

What about getting Payton for the mere price of a second rounder? Decent move and no groupthink!

 

[SirStefan32]

A) I actually am ambivalent towards McD. I’ve stated it before. But the more this discussion unwinds the more I’m convinced his drafting success is a product of luck.

B) no not the same. You guys want to take his tenure pick by pick. In doing so you focus on the trees and lose the big picture of the Forrest. I am looking at his picks in relation to one and other. I’m seeking a pattern to discern skill. I see none. And none of you have pointed out one. When I look at the Donovan mitchel example I see that pick in the slot projected, so I don’t automatically give the Utah GM credit I look at the pick the same way I view the Booker pick. It’s only when I apply the lens of the Gobert pick that I begin to believe that the Donovan pick was based more in skill than luck in following groupthink. I don’t have a similar indicator for McD. Why is that so difficult for everyone to understand? Here’s a good example, although selected later reed was a head scratcher for most of us. Certainly not a product of groupthink projections. If he’s a stud then I start buying into mcd’s talent evaluation SKILL. But as yet there’s no indication that his selections are a result of skill.

But both of them were drafted where they were projected to be drafted! By your own definition, Booker and Warren picks combined are less "groupthink" than Mitchell and Gobert. Your argument is beyond absurd. If you want to say that you feel like picks at 5, 4, 8, 13, 14, and 4 should have been better than Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker, Warren, and Jackson, that's fine. I don't know if I agree or disagree, BUT that's an honest argument. This twisting of "This is luck, this is groupthink, this is some other damn thing" is just illogical. It makes zero sense.

 

[SirStefan32]

What about getting Payton for the mere price of a second rounder? Decent move and no groupthink!

Oh that's just luck. It just fell into his lap. McD had nothing to do with that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What about getting Payton for the mere price of a second rounder? Decent move and no groupthink!

I hope it will prove to be a decent move. Jury’s our right now. He’s talented but I question why a terrible team lets him go for peanuts. His numbers overall look okay. His numbers with us have been great, but in two losses, one of which was an embarrassment.

I need to see more before I say this is a good call or not.

That said his non-draft talent acquisition is also a bit of a rollercoaster.

Bledsoe good
Knight Bad
Thomas good
Chandler middle of the road

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But both of them were drafted where they were projected to be drafted! By your own definition, Booker and Warren picks combined are less "groupthink" than Mitchell and Gobert. Your argument is beyond absurd. If you want to say that you feel like picks at 5, 4, 8, 13, 14, and 4 should have been better than Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker, Warren, and Jackson, that's fine. I don't know if I agree or disagree, BUT that's an honest argument. This twisting of "This is luck, this is groupthink, this is some other damn thing" is just illogical. It makes zero sense.

Okay I get it. You’re incapable of understanding the argument. You’re not even trying. And you’re not trying to pick it apart using examples. You’re not even addressing what I’m saying. So I’ll leave you to your ignorance. Go on believing that McD is a good GM. We are at where we are at due to him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh that's just luck. It just fell into his lap. McD had nothing to do with that.

See putting inaccurate words into my mouth. Lame.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I hope it will prove to be a decent move. Jury’s our right now. He’s talented but I question why a terrible team lets him go for peanuts. His numbers overall look okay. His numbers with us have been great, but in two losses, one of which was an embarrassment.

I need to see more before I say this is a good call or not.

This. Holding up Payton, who was given away for a second round pick, as a great move feels premature.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Because they couldn't pay him. Much like the Jazz "gave away" Rodney Hood. Good player (at least Cavs think so) but they didn't want to pay him. A two-three month rental for a 2nd round is not that out of the ordinary, is it? So McD says "He is the kind of guard we are looking for - let's see if this could work out". Smart or not, savvy or not, he is just doing his job with this and if it turns out Payton is great with this team, then he wins credit for getting a solid tryout for a 2nd rounder. If it misses - not a huge penalty.

 

[SirStefan32]

Okay I get it. You’re incapable of understanding the argument. You’re not even trying. And you’re not trying to pick it apart using examples. You’re not even addressing what I’m saying. So I’ll leave you to your ignorance. Go on believing that McD is a good GM. We are at where we are at due to him.

There is no argument! You literally claim that Utah's GM is good because he picked two player where they were projected. Yet McD is bad because he picked players where they were projected. That's your argument. Nobody can understand that nonsense.

 

[SirStefan32]

I hope it will prove to be a decent move. Jury’s our right now. He’s talented but I question why a terrible team lets him go for peanuts. His numbers overall look okay. His numbers with us have been great, but in two losses, one of which was an embarrassment.

I need to see more before I say this is a good call or not.

That said his non-draft talent acquisition is also a bit of a rollercoaster.

Bledsoe good
Knight Bad
Thomas good
Chandler middle of the road

I'd change that do something worse than just "bad." Terrible, God-awful, insane?

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I will say that picking Len at #5 was fairly bad, and many thought so at the time. And certainly so in hindsight. I still think Bender will be a good player, although #4 is pretty high for that potential.

 

[pokerface]

Oh that's just luck. It just fell into his lap. McD had nothing to do with that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Because they couldn't pay him. Much like the Jazz "gave away" Rodney Hood. Good player (at least Cavs think so) but they didn't want to pay him. A two-three month rental for a 2nd round is not that out of the ordinary, is it? So McD says "He is the kind of guard we are looking for - let's see if this could work out". Smart or not, savvy or not, he is just doing his job with this and if it turns out Payton is great with this team, then he wins credit for getting a solid tryout for a 2nd rounder. If it misses - not a huge penalty.

Agree 200%. That said if he was great, or the magic thought he’d be great, they’d make other moves to be able to afford him. However the magic aren’t exactly a franchise that instills confidence in their talent skills so hopefully they blew this assessment and we win.