Since I Promised My Round 1 Preferred Selection

[cardpa]

Trade our first round pick for both of Denver's 2nd round picks. They have the 9th pick in the second and the Rams 2nd round pick. The numbers work as far as trade value is concerned. That would give us three 2nd round picks and you could really start to resolve the problems on defense.

The Jets also may be a trade partner as they have multiple 2nd round picks and our 1st would give them 3 first round picks. The lure of 3 selection in the top 32 may be strong enough for the Jets to talk.

All the other teams who have surplus picks need to improve their team and probably want to keep their picks.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

And in the heavy jumbo goalline formation with Watt at FB!

Right?

 

[DVontel]

Trade our first round pick for both of Denver's 2nd round picks. They have the 9th pick in the second and the Rams 2nd round pick. The numbers work as far as trade value is concerned. That would give us three 2nd round picks and you could really start to resolve the problems on defense.

The Jets also may be a trade partner as they have multiple 2nd round picks and our 1st would give them 3 first round picks. The lure of 3 selection in the top 32 may be strong enough for the Jets to talk.

All the other teams who have surplus picks need to improve their team and probably want to keep their picks.

You gonna give reasons as to why those teams would trade up?

 

[reebokalone2001]

The trait that caught my eyes the most was how he uses his hands and leverage, then sheds the block. I have not seen that on any Carindlas players this season except Watt. Can't really tell the speed, but his agility is unbelievable. Thanks Harry to bring up such a great candidate. I am excited. I think he might need to lose some weight to play OLB.

 

[Stout]

I believe this is such an under appreciated and recognized philosophy in regards to roster management. Spending money and high picks on positions that are expensive and on players who can have high snap rates. I made this same argument regarding Dan Williams when we drafted him. Liked the player, but hated that we used a premium asset on a limited player.

Hey now, Dumpster Dan gave us tremendous value for that pick. He was a beast, did exactly what we needed, and our DL went to pieces when he left.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Hey now, Dumpster Dan gave us tremendous value for that pick. He was a beast, did exactly what we needed, and our DL went to pieces when he left.

That's not the point.

Plenty of comparable players taken on day three.

 

[DVontel]

Hey now, Dumpster Dan gave us tremendous value for that pick. He was a beast, did exactly what we needed, and our DL went to pieces when he left.

No, it was not tremendous value.

Geno Atkins went in that same draft 3 rounds later & did the same thing Dan did, but also had a pass-rushing skill set as well. Also, throw in some All-Pros. Now, THAT’s tremendous value.

Even Corey Peters was in that same draft & did the same thing Dan did, & even offered a little bit of pass-rush, at least at his peak & lasted in the league longer.


You might be a traditionalist & still not think positional value matters, but it absolutely does & it determines how high ceiling of your team really is.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's Dan Williams all over again.

Yes he was a damn good run stopper, but those guys can be found in rounds 3-7 too.

Except not by us. I remember you beating everyone up at the beginning of the year when a bunch of us were complaining about unable to stop the run and you kept saying that’s because all our defensive linemen were injured. Welp, even when we got leki and Lawrence back we couldn’t stop the run. Those guys suck. And I keep hearing this “I like Lawrence” talk on the board. He’s often injured and not a playmaker. So keim sucks at identifying that talent everywhere.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's not the point.

Plenty of comparable players taken on day three.

Other than QB you can say that about virtually every position in the nfl.

 

[Stout]

That's not the point.

Plenty of comparable players taken on day three.

lol Except they aren't by us. Sure, there are A FEW of those every season--not "plenty" but "a few" really good immediate impact NTs--and we don't get them. you make it sound so easy and simple when it's anything but. Taking Dumpster Dan was a good pick and then, when we tried to do EXACTLY what you said to replace him, we failed and our run D sucked.

 

[Stout]

No, it was not tremendous value.

Geno Atkins went in that same draft 3 rounds later & did the same thing Dan did, but also had a pass-rushing skill set as well. Also, throw in some All-Pros. Now, THAT’s tremendous value.

Even Corey Peters was in that same draft & did the same thing Dan did, & even offered a little bit of pass-rush, at least at his peak & lasted in the league longer.


You might be a traditionalist & still not think positional value matters, but it absolutely does & it determines how high ceiling of your team really is.

lol This is just your RB broken record all over again, like it's just an absolute guarantee you'll get what you need at the position in later rounds. How's that been working out for us and our run D recently? I'll wait while you point out the great late round run stuffers we've been drafting.

Note that this isn't me advocating for taking a run stuffer early this year. It's just a commentary on the insanity of the utter certainty that you don't take XYZ early. Other than positions like P, K, and LS, that's folly. You'd pass on an eventual HOF player in the 1st round solely due to position.

 

[DVontel]

like it's just an absolute guarantee you'll get what you need at the position in later rounds

You can say this about the first round. With how this team has been drafting in the first round, it has been far from guaranteed.

How's that been working out for us and our run D recently?

Just as bad as when Dan was here. I don’t think you remember our run defense being from sub-par to being bad most of the time Dan was here. It wasn’t until 2013 that he actually he made a solid impact.

It's just a commentary on the insanity of the utter certainty that you don't take XYZ early

You can take XYZ seriously if you’re not serious about building a legitimate team with a high ceiling. Stout, there’s a reason why non-QB spots like EDGE, CB, & LT get the paid the most compared to other positions. You better be transcendent otherwise.




You might hate Keim, but it does appear you two share the same traditionalist mindset.

 

[Stout]

You can say this about the first round. With how this team has been drafting in the first round, it has been far from guaranteed.


Just as bad as when Dan was here. I don’t think you remember our run defense being from sub-par to being bad most of the time Dan was here. It wasn’t until 2013 that he actually he made a solid impact.


You can take XYZ seriously if you’re not serious about building a legitimate team with a high ceiling. Stout, there’s a reason why non-QB spots like EDGE, CB, & LT get the paid the most compared to other positions. You better be transcendent otherwise.




You might hate Keim, but it does appear you two share the same traditionalist mindset.

I can certainly agree with that. I wouldn't say I'm a traditionalist, but, were I a GM (go ahead and run screaming for the hills lol) I would consider a lot of different positions but give a premium to the premium positions. If I see a Ray Lewis (sans the, you know, murder) I'm not going to pass him up for a DJ Humphries. That would be madness. Of course, this hinges on great scouting and talent evaluation, which Keim doesn't have.

 

[Russ Smith]

You can say this about the first round. With how this team has been drafting in the first round, it has been far from guaranteed.


Just as bad as when Dan was here. I don’t think you remember our run defense being from sub-par to being bad most of the time Dan was here. It wasn’t until 2013 that he actually he made a solid impact.


You can take XYZ seriously if you’re not serious about building a legitimate team with a high ceiling. Stout, there’s a reason why non-QB spots like EDGE, CB, & LT get the paid the most compared to other positions. You better be transcendent otherwise.




You might hate Keim, but it does appear you two share the same traditionalist mindset.

I guess you need to define traditionalist because to me Keim is the opposite. Taking players to convert them to positions they didn't play in college is not traditional to me? Taking smaller school guys is not traditional. And as others have said Keim has already taken a few later round interior DL's, not one of them has been good enough. I like Fotu as a run stopper but he's not good enough nor is Lawrence etc.

If there's a CB, or an OL, or a WR(can't believe we need 1 or even 2 Wr's already) yeah you take them but this is a very weak draft in certain areas. There's actual debate there might not be a Qb taken in the top 15 picks or more. the early runs on QB's etc won't happen so the guys who get picked are goign to be pass rushers, CB's etc. The 2 CB's you named yesterday I see as rated as 5 and 6 in this draft at that position. In a normal year one or both of them are sitting there when we pick, this year neither one of them is a lock to get to our spot because of the lack of QB. Same with edge rusher.

My guess is we might get the guy Harry is touting based on where he's projected, or we might be able to get a Guard. I'd be pretty surprised if wind up getting a 1st round CB though,. I'd be thrilled if it happened, I just don't see it happening.

 

[Krangodnzr]

lol Except they aren't by us. Sure, there are A FEW of those every season--not "plenty" but "a few" really good immediate impact NTs--and we don't get them. you make it sound so easy and simple when it's anything but. Taking Dumpster Dan was a good pick and then, when we tried to do EXACTLY what you said to replace him, we failed and our run D sucked.

So you admit those players are out there...which invalidates your argument essentially. Smart teams find guys like Williams in round 4 and draft a good CB too.

 

[DVontel]

I guess you need to define traditionalist because to me Keim is the opposite. Taking players to convert them to positions they didn't play in college is not traditional to me? Taking smaller school guys is not traditional. And as others have said Keim has already taken a few later round interior DL's, not one of them has been good enough. I like Fotu as a run stopper but he's not good enough nor is Lawrence etc.

If there's a CB, or an OL, or a WR(can't believe we need 1 or even 2 Wr's already) yeah you take them but this is a very weak draft in certain areas. There's actual debate there might not be a Qb taken in the top 15 picks or more. the early runs on QB's etc won't happen so the guys who get picked are goign to be pass rushers, CB's etc. The 2 CB's you named yesterday I see as rated as 5 and 6 in this draft at that position. In a normal year one or both of them are sitting there when we pick, this year neither one of them is a lock to get to our spot because of the lack of QB. Same with edge rusher.

My guess is we might get the guy Harry is touting based on where he's projected, or we might be able to get a Guard. I'd be pretty surprised if wind up getting a 1st round CB though,. I'd be thrilled if it happened, I just don't see it happening.

Traditionalist = Advocate of drafting a player regardless of what position he plays. Thinking the value of a ILB or RB or NT is anywhere in the ballpark of a EDGE, OT, or EDGE. Keim has continued to focus on the low impact position, aka, ILB while seemingly ignoring CB & OT over the years. Hence why he has drafted 5(!!!!!) of them within the first two rounds while he has drafted only 1 CB & 1 OT in that same time frame.

Just because it hasn’t worked out drafting run stuffers in later rounds means we should draft them in round 1, that just means Keim isn’t good at his job & should be fired.

 

[ajcardfan]

Traditionalist = Advocate of drafting a player regardless of what position he plays. Thinking the value of a ILB or RB or NT is anywhere in the ballpark of a EDGE, OT, or EDGE. Keim has continued to focus on the low impact position, aka, ILB while seemingly ignoring CB & OT over the years. Hence why he has drafted 5(!!!!!) of them within the first two rounds while he has drafted only 1 CB & 1 OT in that same time frame.

Just because it hasn’t worked out drafting run stuffers in later rounds means we should draft them in round 1, that just means Keim isn’t good at his job & should be fired.

But context does matter. If it comes to the #6 Edge and #5 CB or the #1 NT the value calculation has changed. A guy who starts for 5 years or more on the defensive line is worth more than an Edge or CB you reached for and didn't pan out after 2 to 4 years.

I am not locked in on Davis. There are several terrific picks we can make at 23 if the cards fall our way. Context matters.

 

[Russ Smith]

Traditionalist = Advocate of drafting a player regardless of what position he plays. Thinking the value of a ILB or RB or NT is anywhere in the ballpark of a EDGE, OT, or EDGE. Keim has continued to focus on the low impact position, aka, ILB while seemingly ignoring CB & OT over the years. Hence why he has drafted 5(!!!!!) of them within the first two rounds while he has drafted only 1 CB & 1 OT in that same time frame.

Just because it hasn’t worked out drafting run stuffers in later rounds means we should draft them in round 1, that just means Keim isn’t good at his job & should be fired.

OK thanks for the definition and I do agree the reason we have CB issues is basically other than Murphy he didn't draft any. For years we had PP on one side and he thought he could easily find guys to cover the other. The problem was when PP started to slip he didn't realize that meant he needed 2 or 3 CB's now because he no longer could rely on teams only throwing away from PP they were now completely unafraid of PP.

I guess our fundamental disagreement is I think the run stopping issue is not just scheme, I think that's part of it but I think the main issue we have is our DL's don't get off blocks, the only guy who consistently gets off blocks in the run defense is Watt and he played 7 games. A kid like Davis will wind up either driving his man into the backfield, or drawing 2 blockers and that will help the guys behind him.

But again I do agree we need CB"s, I'm just looking at a ton of mock drafts right now and virtually all of them have at least 6 CB's off the board before we pick. We may have to move up to get one.

 

[AustrianCardFan]

Thanks a lot @Harry! As it's really hard to follow College FB over here these kind of write-ups help me a lot. As I would really prefer to draft OL, would you have any realistic prospects there as well? Bernhard Raimann is a big story in Austria right now, but all I have seen are some youtube higlights...do you maybe have an opinion on him?

 

[Stout]

So you admit those players are out there...which invalidates your argument essentially. Smart teams find guys like Williams in round 4 and draft a good CB too.

Haha, no. Not even a nice try. There are a few of them--never a ton--at each position. The hidden gems, the late-round steals. You don't completely ignore positions in the first round on a wing and a prayer and hope you're the one who finds them. Not 100 percent. You take everything, the whole draft pool, into consideration, then come up with the best plan. If you go into the draft shackled to a "you NEVER EVER do XYZ," well, you're already limiting your options needlessly. Kind of like saying "the system works!" when we kept disproving that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

lol Except they aren't by us. Sure, there are A FEW of those every season--not "plenty" but "a few" really good immediate impact NTs--and we don't get them. you make it sound so easy and simple when it's anything but. Taking Dumpster Dan was a good pick and then, when we tried to do EXACTLY what you said to replace him, we failed and our run D sucked.

I’ll never understand the mindset that there are plenty of good “X” out there. When you don’t have one and you consistently can’t identify them, no there are not. Who here recalls hiw many season the cardinals tried to find a good rb? Seemed like the entire first decade they were in AZ. But they grew on trees, right?

 

[Harry]

I guess you need to define traditionalist because to me Keim is the opposite. Taking players to convert them to positions they didn't play in college is not traditional to me? Taking smaller school guys is not traditional. And as others have said Keim has already taken a few later round interior DL's, not one of them has been good enough. I like Fotu as a run stopper but he's not good enough nor is Lawrence etc.

If there's a CB, or an OL, or a WR(can't believe we need 1 or even 2 Wr's already) yeah you take them but this is a very weak draft in certain areas. There's actual debate there might not be a Qb taken in the top 15 picks or more. the early runs on QB's etc won't happen so the guys who get picked are goign to be pass rushers, CB's etc. The 2 CB's you named yesterday I see as rated as 5 and 6 in this draft at that position. In a normal year one or both of them are sitting there when we pick, this year neither one of them is a lock to get to our spot because of the lack of QB. Same with edge rusher.

My guess is we might get the guy Harry is touting based on where he's projected, or we might be able to get a Guard. I'd be pretty surprised if wind up getting a 1st round CB though,. I'd be thrilled if it happened, I just don't see it happening.

This draft is deep on CBs. I’d think they might target a CB in round 2. I haven’t posted this before but when the Bucs won the Super Bowl many touted their versatile LBs. I think the Cards admired and tried to emulate that success, yielding Simmons & Collins. That strategy seems to be a failure. I‘m releasing Pugh. I see a couple of reasonably priced FA guards the Cards could target. They should re-sign Ertz & Conner. They should extend Humphries.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So you admit those players are out there...which invalidates your argument essentially. Smart teams find guys like Williams in round 4 and draft a good CB too.

When did the cardinals become a smart team?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Except not by us. I remember you beating everyone up at the beginning of the year when a bunch of us were complaining about unable to stop the run and you kept saying that’s because all our defensive linemen were injured. Welp, even when we got leki and Lawrence back we couldn’t stop the run. Those guys suck. And I keep hearing this “I like Lawrence” talk on the board. He’s often injured and not a playmaker. So keim sucks at identifying that talent everywhere.

I'm just going to have to assume that you haven't read what I've been saying all season. My belief is it's more scheme than anything else. You'll see the Cardinals getting gashed by the run, but little old Vance doesn't change his scheme to fit what the offense is doing.

 

[Krangodnzr]

When did the cardinals become a smart team?

Not saying they are . I'm just saying that it's still stupid to draft a defensive tackle run stopper in round one. That's how you build a horrible team..