Snap Counts and Thoughts - @CHI

[Phrazbit]

Hopefully Collins is one more in a long line of linebackers that this forum pooped on early in their careers... only to see them light it up down the line.

 

[Chopper0080]

Well Howie Long definitely would disagree with you on that. During halftime he was raving about Simmons being all over the field & playing multiple positions.

He is all over the field because he is an amazing athlete but he is a meh to sub-par LB. He struggles to get lined up, misses shifting with motion, attacks incorrect gaps, and takes poor angles. All thing that should be coached into players and even in year 2 he is struggling with. The difference between him and other plays is that he can take an incorrect angle and still run down Jakeem Grant.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

He is all over the field because he is an amazing athlete but he is a meh to sub-par LB. He struggles to get lined up, misses shifting with motion, attacks incorrect gaps, and takes poor angles. All thing that should be coached into players and even in year 2 he is struggling with. The difference between him and other plays is that he can take an incorrect angle and still run down Jakeem Grant.

You can't coach speed & we haven't had a LB with his speed in my lifetime, not even D. Washington. How many times has he came out of nowhere to make a 1st down saving tackle? Bunches. I'll take it. The VJ system is complicated & whatever gap/assignment mistakes he's making will improve eventually imo. I'd rather have his speed & versatility than everything else.

 

[Chopper0080]

You can't coach speed & we haven't had a LB with his speed in my lifetime, not even D. Washington. How many times has he came out of nowhere to make a 1st down saving tackle? Bunches. I'll take it. The VJ system is complicated & whatever gap/assignment mistakes he's making will improve eventually imo. I'd rather have his speed & versatility than everything else.

My overall point is that the intelligence is there and the athleticism is there but the fundamentals are not which along with Zaven's struggles point more to coaching than the player.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

My overall point is that the intelligence is there and the athleticism is there but the fundamentals are not which along with Zaven's struggles point more to coaching than the player.

Yet we're relatively successful, perhaps even very successful, on defense, despite suffering this starter's pronounced shortcomings. This is true even after we lost JJ Watt.

If Simmons is so terrible, how do you account for our top-five-to-top-ten defensive metrics?

 

[SoonerLou]

Not worried at all. We have all seen him flash.

If we are talking about this next year at this time - then yes.

Would have still preferred Najee.

Would have helped us this year and maybe next year (if we cant resign Conner). However, Collins has a better chance of being a 10+ year player and not a 5 year player like Najee. I didnt think that on draft day, but after time Collins made more sense.

Najee??? Super underwhelming at 3.6 ypc….

Conner who is a stud is at 3.8 with a much better Oline. Harris is doing ok for a below average Oline.

I so wanted that dude.

Would have been a 3 headed monster at RB, but just hard to spend a 1st round pick on a guy who might not reach a 2nd contract.

 

[SoonerLou]

I think Simmons is Murphy status. I wasnt huge on Murphy, but by year 3 everything started to click. He physically got much better as well.

Simmons is still physically and mentally morphing into the LB that Vance wants. Remember some thought he'd be more Derwin James type. Year 3 we'll see if he can really tap into his star potential. The only thing working against Simmons(for a team trying to win the chip) is that Wirfs and Lamb look like flat out stars. Simmons can be one as well, but just gotta hope it comes with more experience.

Devin White seemed to go to another level when the playoffs hit. Maybe the same for Simmons.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I laugh at all the Collins comments week to week. At this point who cares? I mean seriously.

I care. We shouldn't be overlooking the fact that our R1 picks can't see the field in consecutive years. That shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Shane]

I care. We shouldn't be overlooking the fact that our R1 picks can't see the field in consecutive years. That shouldn't be ignored.

Ehhh I get it to an extent… But were already to week 14 in the season we already know that Collins isn’t playing it’s spelled out for us. We also know that we have a top 5 D and are sitting at 10-2 without him playing…. The constant weekly hand wringing over it like it’s some big shocking surprise is a little silly imo. He’s followed a similar path to our last 1st round pick. At this point but it is what it is. If you guys want to panic and keep worrying about it incessantly each week the new snap counts come out have at it I guess.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Ehhh I get it to an extent… But were already to week 14 in the season we already know that Collins isn’t playing it’s spelled out for us. We also know that we have a top 5 D and are sitting at 10-2 without him playing…. The constant weekly hand wringing over it like it’s some big shocking surprise is a little silly imo. He’s followed a similar path to our last 1st round pick. At this point but it is what it is. If you guys want to panic and keep worrying about it incessantly each week the new snap counts come out have at it I guess.

Panic isn't the right word. It is concern.

 

[kerouac9]

Yet we're relatively successful, perhaps even very successful, on defense, despite suffering this starter's pronounced shortcomings. This is true even after we lost JJ Watt.

If Simmons is so terrible, how do you account for our top-five-to-top-ten defensive metrics?

Because it's a passing league and our pass rush and secondary play have been great?

This is part of the argument for why it's completely insane that we invested high 1st round picks in ILBs in consecutive seasons. WHHHHYYYYYY????

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

My overall point is that the intelligence is there and the athleticism is there but the fundamentals are not which along with Zaven's struggles point more to coaching than the player.

Both players are still learning & growing, they will figure out all the things you mentioned they currently lack imo. I'd rather have 2 athletic fast LB's than not.

 

[PACardsFan]

Yes i was banned for a month

That’s what you get for sleeping with my wife LOL

 

[ajcardfan]

My overall point is that the intelligence is there and the athleticism is there but the fundamentals are not which along with Zaven's struggles point more to coaching than the player.

Are you a coach? You should be if you aren't. If you are, maybe you can snag the Cards LB coach job for next season by creating a portfolio of your posts here.

 

[PACardsFan]

The coaching staff and Keim look like doofuses for annointing Collins the starter and trying to trade Hicks. VJ be like, "nah, fam. Hicks is the starter and his peers will vote him captain. Meanwhile, Collins will get three snaps per game to prove himself. "

Keim looks like a genius. It’s no secret that Hicks was God awful last season. By coming out & threatening his starting position, he pushed Hicks to a stronger workout off-season, and Hicks responded. Kudos to BOTH Keim and Hicks. Collins is a fricking rookie. He‘ll be just fine. Stop listening to some on this board. Listen to me instead. I’m right like 99.9875% of the time

 

[BullheadCardFan]

My overall point is that the intelligence is there and the athleticism is there but the fundamentals are not which along with Zaven's struggles point more to coaching than the player.

Bill Davis

That explains it

 

[cardncubfan]

I would rather keep VJ & get rid of Billy Davis. If we get a better LB coach I would think our young ILB's will get immensely better.

 

[PACardsFan]

You can't coach speed & we haven't had a LB with his speed in my lifetime, not even D. Washington. How many times has he came out of nowhere to make a 1st down saving tackle? Bunches. I'll take it. The VJ system is complicated & whatever gap/assignment mistakes he's making will improve eventually imo. I'd rather have his speed & versatility than everything else.

Agree 100%. VJ’s system is holding back athletes like Simmons & Collins. It‘s been a special season, but VJ is WAY, WAY overrated on this board as a DC. I pray that some moron franchise hires him as their HC this off-season & takes him off our hands. Then people on this board will see how special Simmons truly is. I watched that kid throughout his ENTIRE college career. VJ is a criminal for not developing this kid more than he has.

 

[PACardsFan]

I would rather keep VJ & get rid of Billy Davis. If we get a better LB coach I would think our young ILB's will get immensely better.

VJ hired Davis. My preference would be to get rid of BOTH of them.

 

[cardncubfan]

Skip to the 4:40 mark. They talk about VJ & the defense.

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[daves]

Some relevant excerpts from the excellent article in the Athletic, "Red bird redemption: Why time is the secret ingredient to Vance Joseph’s dominant Cardinals defense", which has already been mentioned and excerpted elsewhere:

Hicks is the nerve center of Joseph’s unit. He’s a regular part of game plan meetings with the coaching staff. By the middle of last season, he’d had so thoroughly mastered the defense that he was consistently able to make his own calls in moments when Joseph was late or an opponent pushed the tempo. Now Hicks can deftly flip blitz calls based on certain offensive formations or personnel, getting the Cardinals into the right call on nearly every play. “He would brag about making the right calls versus my call,” Joseph said.

Having Hicks in the middle of their defense has allowed the Cardinals to bring on Collins and 2020 top-10 pick Isaiah Simmons at their own pace. At Clemson, Simmons was a 6-foot-4, 240-pound multifaceted force of destruction, with cornerback speed in a linebacker’s body. He transcended positional designations. But Simmons had spent most of his time in college playing out of the box, away from the fray. As he took on more snaps as a traditional off-ball linebacker, his proximity to all the moving parts of NFL offenses occasionally sent his head spinning. Unlike Hicks, who’d played inside linebacker his entire life, Simmons didn’t have the same instincts for reacting to motion, pullers and shiny distractions.

All that confusion bogged down the start of Simmons’s rookie season. Some outside the organization dismissed him as an elite athlete without a positional home in the NFL, but those in the building saw steady signs of improvement. Hicks points to Simmons’ game-sealing overtime interception against the Seahawks in Week 7 as the moment that the light turned on.

In his second season, Simmons has shown notable strides in the quieter aspects of a player’s development. Hicks said he’s detected a shift in the way Simmons asks questions, watches film and uses his voice both in meetings and in practice. “A lot of that is just maturity, a lot of that is seeing it,” Hicks said. “Like, ‘OK, this is the process,’ and going through the trials and having to figure it out on your own.”

“Everybody wants an instant superstar, especially when you draft them in the first round,” said linebackers coach Bill Davis. “The NFL game is hard, and it’s a grind. You’ve got to learn how to take care of your body, how to study, how to take notes, how to prepare each day. And that’s why you put somebody with a mentor and say, ‘Okay, just do what he does,’ and he’ll slowly figure it out. You’ve got to grow the confidence and the skill set.”

After the film review of Arizona’s surprising loss to the Panthers last month, Simmons approached Davis about a misstep the rookie, Collins, had made in coverage. Carolina had used a particular route concept to twist one of the Cardinals’ rules for base coverage, creating an exception that would be easy to miss for a young player. “Isaiah came and said, ‘Man, I thought I had it down, but now I look back, boy, I didn’t have it,” Davis said. “‘Not nearly as clear as I do now.'”

It’s tempting to look at a prospect like Collins — with a 6-foot-5 frame and endless range — and expect him to be a plug-and-play contributor to any NFL defense, especially when the Cardinals selected him out of Tulsa with the No. 16 pick in the first round. But that’s rarely how it happens with rookie linebackers. Similar to the growing pains Simmons experienced last year, Collins ran into issues with how to direct his eyes against NFL offenses shrouded in deception.

There are multiple schools of thought about how to expose young players to failure in the NFL, to navigate the inevitable dips in their production and the up-and-down nature of their development. Davis isn’t a believer in the sink-or-swim method, not when the ultimate goal is years in the making. In recent weeks, Collins has ceded a portion of his snaps to veteran Tanner Vallejo. Davis sees scaling back the work as a normal part of the development cycle rather than a setback in how Collins has progressed.

“A lot of people say, ‘Just put him in and let him make the mistake,'” Davis said. “You make mistakes and lose games for us, you’re not liked in the locker room. You’re not. You don’t like yourself, and you’re not liked. It’s a society of productivity.”

The way that Arizona has handled its linebackers has been an exercise in patience. By using Hicks as the model and bringing along Simmons and Collins slowly, Arizona has been able to maximize its present while preserving its future.

These long excerpts are probably pushing the limits of "fair use", but there's a LOT more to the article. I highly recommend a subscription to the Athletic. Aside from ASFN, it's my only sports-related subscription and has been 100% worth the moderate cost!

...dave

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Because it's a passing league and our pass rush and secondary play have been great?

This is part of the argument for why it's completely insane that we invested high 1st round picks in ILBs in consecutive seasons. WHHHHYYYYYY????

Easy big fella. haha.

That's a fair answer; I agree with you about our pass rush and secondary (did I use the semicolon correctly?).

But my rebuttal would be, isn't Isiah Simmons a component of our pass defense? Specifically, isn't his primary role in pass coverage to cover TEs?

Because it seems to me K9, that, this year especially, TEs no longer terrorize us like they used to. The days of Vernon Davis (type TEs) going for 9-for-143 and two TDs appear to be over (mercifully).

You and Chopper are better students of the game than I, and so if you tell me that IS has limited or no value in coverage then fine, perhaps we'll agree he's a wasted pick.

But to my untrained eye, as I'm watching the games, it appears that Simmons is usually in pretty tight coverage against the likes of Kittle or Tyler Higbee, and that he deserves some credit for our defensive improvement this year. But, I could be wrong.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Agree 100%. VJ’s system is holding back athletes like Simmons & Collins. It‘s been a special season, but VJ is WAY, WAY overrated on this board as a DC. I pray that some moron franchise hires him as their HC this off-season & takes him off our hands. Then people on this board will see how special Simmons truly is. I watched that kid throughout his ENTIRE college career. VJ is a criminal for not developing this kid more than he has.

I watched him also because living here in Louisville & them being in the ACC along with Clemson, the games are watched closely. I'm a Kentucky fan though so I rooted for Clemson lol. Simmons is special & the few that don't see that now will eventually. Hell, if they can't see it now they must be blind lol?

 

[Stout]

Ehhh I get it to an extent… But were already to week 14 in the season we already know that Collins isn’t playing it’s spelled out for us. We also know that we have a top 5 D and are sitting at 10-2 without him playing…. The constant weekly hand wringing over it like it’s some big shocking surprise is a little silly imo. He’s followed a similar path to our last 1st round pick. At this point but it is what it is. If you guys want to panic and keep worrying about it incessantly each week the new snap counts come out have at it I guess.

No, he really hasn't. Some poster pointed out the difference in this past week alone, where Simmons last year in that week got something like 30 % of the snaps and Collins got 3. Not 3 %. 3 snaps only.

 

[daves]

But to my untrained eye, as I'm watching the games, it appears that Simmons is usually in pretty tight coverage against the likes of Kittle or Tyler Higbee, and that he deserves some credit for our defensive improvement this year. But, I could be wrong.

The Cardinals have been at or near the best team in the league vs. TEs all season. They're allowing 3.7 catches on 5.7 targets for 35.8 yards per game to TEs, with 2 TDs on the whole season. Jimmy Graham had 1 catch for 1 yard and a TD vs. the Bears.

...dave