So how bad are we honestly?

[D-Dogg]

Sorry dude... no way can I get on that bullet-train you're riding... We not only need to fix the o-line, but, our QBOF isn't on our team right now!

I don't see a QBOF in the first round, either. I see a reach and a stretch and a prayer in the second round, and I'm ok with that. But the reality of the situation is we suck on the OL and at QB, and this draft is full of OL and no good QB. Take what is presented to you. We'd all love the Ruth's Chris steak for dinner tonight (QBOF), but the only thing on the menu is some amazing pot roast and mashed potatoes (OL). Don't order the strip club steak just because you haven't had steak in a long time.

As for your analogy of what the 9ers did with Smith at the helm, Smith is > any QB on our roster at present, including Kolb.

He was crap for several years, until coaching got there and the OL improved. Kolb isn't that far behind what Smith was, though he's a fragile little butterfly.

So, we have to not only revamp our o-line, but we also have to somehow address the QB position as well. Oh, and our RB situation is horrid as well. The 9ers have Gore who is 1,000,000,000x better than any RB we have on our roster.

Gore was a third round draft pick. Ballard was a 5th round draft pick. Good RBs are a dime a dozen IF you know how to draft them. We haven't...but that's such a low hanging fruit fix it's not worth worrying about. Fix the OL, the run game improves. Draft some dude in the 4th, behind a strong OL, and see what happens.

The rebuilding process for the Cards will not be quick. My prediction is we will not see the playoffs for at least the next 4 years... probably longer. In part, because we suck so badly... and in part, because the Hawks and the 9ers have become beasts who will literally kick our asses 4 times a year. And of course, the Rams are coming now too...we'd be lucky to split with them each season.

Of course it won't. Which is why it's completely nuts to reach at 7 for a QB that won't ever live up to that draft status, in a draft class full of powerful OT and OG. Get a blue chip OL in the first round, take a QB in the 2nd and hope he doesn't suck, and go back to OL in the 3rd. Grab a RB somewhere in 4-5.

You absolutely have to take advantage of this draft for OL, because good OL don't hit FA very often. Scrubs do. If this were a QB draft, by all means take one or two, but this ain't QB city. This is the meat and potatoes, lunch pail late-shift draft. Build the effing trench, and start the turnaround.

 

[Catfish]

Chopper and D-Dogg you both make some great points. Both the QB and the O-line need to be fixed. I like that BA has said that, 1. he is not sure just what we have on the roster at the QB position, and 2. he will look elsewhere for help if we don't have what is needed. He has brought in the guru's who can make that determination though, and I have confidence in them to find any talent that is there, and make it productive. (Let's face it, Whiz did not develop any QB prospects while he was here, he simply discarded those he could not plug in and be successful with). Maybe BA sees in Kolb, a person who worked very hard to play Whiz' scheme, and was moderately successful once he learned the playbook, until he got hurt again.

I also like that BA seems to see a real upside to the O-line roster that we have on board, (at least the ones we drafted). That is pretty much an untapped well, as Whiz and Grimm did nothing to teach technique to these guys, and proper technique can go far to doing what BA knows will make a successful O-line.

If you consider that we may bring in an additional FA QB, a FA O-linemen; and that we might also might draft one of each, to work with, aside from our current roster, we may not be nearly as bad off as it might seem. I am not saying that we will overthrow the NFC West this year, but the progress might be sufficient to make us all feel good about our chances to be competitive in the division next year. I am willing to wait and see what transpires with this new FO and Coaching Staff this year. Things will be interesting to say the least.

 

[THESMEL]

I like our Olines future- We have Levi under contract and 3 rookies with a year of playing experience- I'm sorry Bridges left after the injury- He deserves alot of praise for filling alot of positions alot of times on our oline. We need more olineman but who doesn't? the trick is to have young expierenced back ups competing to be starters-

I really think we have a competitive starting starter grade- it is competitive depth we lack- On offense I think Mike Miller was the worse OC in the NFL- and We can not evaluate current players by his actions. I may be wrong- but a clean slate and a lil encouragement might sharpen up some dull knives.

 

[D-Dogg]

I don't care how much you sharpen the dull knives. Buy some new shiny ones to use until the old ones get sharp.

LEMSEHT

 

[Duckjake]

Pass protection is mostly on the QB not the offensive line. Good QBs make their pass protection look better than it actually is.

Not in Arizona. When you have defenders constantly coming in unblocked from the outside and the middle is collapsing because the Guards and C can't figure out who they are supposed to block so there is no pocket to step into it most certainly is not on the QBs.

 

[Jetstream Green]

It is the Cardinal's past which it hard to overcome when giving an accurate judgement of this team. Defense has very good talent, the depth is not that bad. There is no team in the NFL that is rounded out with pro bowlers at every position, and starters all along the depth side. The defense is solid. The OL is lacking in the interior after how well I viewed Potter and Massie coming along even with no help from the guard position. The runningback position does not worry me because runningback can be found late in the draft. It is the QB position which will decide this and the reality is that this is what a good team has and bad team lacks. Find a QB, and the view of this team changes from night to day in my opinion. We are not far off in my mind unless this organization continues to struggle finding the QB grail.

 

[Chopper0080]

Not in Arizona. When you have defenders constantly coming in unblocked from the outside and the middle is collapsing because the Guards and C can't figure out who they are supposed to block so there is no pocket to step into it most certainly is not on the QBs.

Kurt Warner would disagree with you. He was able to manage an equally talented offensive line and he had a ton of success. He got hit a lot, but he was still able to work with it. Aaron Rodgers, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck and Tony Romo all are successful with very offensive lines that have very little talent.

QBs in the NFL use mostly 3 to 5 step drops which should cause the ball to come out within 2.5 seconds of the snap. It's the QBs determination to hold onto the ball longer to make a bigger play if they feel the protection allows it. There will always be plays which are the exceptions, but even this year, the Cardinals offensive line gave it's QBs 2.5 seconds at least half the time.

 

[Sam Wise]

Kurt Warner would disagree with you. He was able to manage an equally talented offensive line and he had a ton of success. He got hit a lot, but he was still able to work with it.

Ok one big difference, he had Wayne Gandy on his blind side. Gandy while not a pro bowler was a good left tackle and new how to adjust to different rush styles and Warner knew Gandy's capabilities.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Ok one big difference, he had Wayne Gandy on his blind side. Gandy while not a pro bowler was a good left tackle and new how to adjust to different rush styles and Warner knew Gandy's capabilities.

Mike Gandy

 

[crisper57]

We are so bad, that when I was in St. Thomas in December, I wore a Cardinals T-shirt one day and a homeless man came up to me to make fun of my team.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kurt Warner would disagree with you. He was able to manage an equally talented offensive line and he had a ton of success. He got hit a lot, but he was still able to work with it.

Ok one big difference, he had Wayne Gandy on his blind side. Gandy while not a pro bowler was a good left tackle and new how to adjust to different rush styles and Warner knew Gandy's capabilities.

Mike Gandy was a street free agent who was made better by Kurt Warner, and would not have been a free agent.

Here was his breakdown at the time (which K9 was happy to provide)

"Gandy has above-average size for the offensive line position and is an average athlete. He started as an offensive tackle but was moved inside to offensive guard mid way through the season. Mike is somewhat of a 'tweener in that he does not have great power and punch as a run blocker and does not have great foot quickness and agility to be effective on a consistent basis on the edge. He is a tough and competitive player and his best asset may be his versatility and experience. Gandy was not effective as a left tackle as he could not anchor versus power rushers and could not recover to speed and counters on the edge. He does use his hands well and has a good feel for leverage and body positioning. Gandy tends to play high and his stiffness is glaring when attempting blocks on the second level. Mike does have value as a swing player but may be best suited as an offensive guard. His intelligence and toughness can get you through a game in a pinch but the Bills front office may consider him as versatile backup if they can acquire a solid starter."

-from ESPN Scouts Inc.

here is the ASFN thread about the signing...http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...agent-offensive-lineman-mike-gandy-88428.html


Fun reading some old Skorp posts. Joe posted more at that time, and K9 was even more fired up. Good times.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You absolutely have to take advantage of this draft for OL, because good OL don't hit FA very often. Scrubs do. If this were a QB draft, by all means take one or two, but this ain't QB city. This is the meat and potatoes, lunch pail late-shift draft. Build the effing trench, and start the turnaround.

I agree... we HAVE to capitalize on this draft and improve our o-line. I honestly can't imagine we won't. I just don't believe that this draft and any o-linemen we grab will be the panacea...

4 years... Hope I'm wrong...

 

[TigToad]

We are in better shape than the Suns.

 

[D-Dogg]

I agree... we HAVE to capitalize on this draft and improve our o-line. I honestly can't imagine we won't. I just don't believe that this draft and any o-linemen we grab will be the panacea...

4 years... Hope I'm wrong...

3 years. That's my guess. But only if we build the OL. We'll be slightly competitive in year 2 but no threat in the division. Along a 3 year process, we'll have the opportunity to get a QB, but need to nail it when we do.

 

[Dr. Jones]

We are better off then the Suns. That all I got.

Sent from my 4G/LTE Galaxy Tab using Tapatalk HD.

 

[kerouac9]

Mike Gandy was a street free agent who was made better by Kurt Warner, and would not have been a free agent.

Here was his breakdown at the time (which K9 was happy to provide)

"Gandy has above-average size for the offensive line position and is an average athlete. He started as an offensive tackle but was moved inside to offensive guard mid way through the season. Mike is somewhat of a 'tweener in that he does not have great power and punch as a run blocker and does not have great foot quickness and agility to be effective on a consistent basis on the edge. He is a tough and competitive player and his best asset may be his versatility and experience. Gandy was not effective as a left tackle as he could not anchor versus power rushers and could not recover to speed and counters on the edge. He does use his hands well and has a good feel for leverage and body positioning. Gandy tends to play high and his stiffness is glaring when attempting blocks on the second level. Mike does have value as a swing player but may be best suited as an offensive guard. His intelligence and toughness can get you through a game in a pinch but the Bills front office may consider him as versatile backup if they can acquire a solid starter."

-from ESPN Scouts Inc.

here is the ASFN thread about the signing...http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...agent-offensive-lineman-mike-gandy-88428.html


Fun reading some old Skorp posts. Joe posted more at that time, and K9 was even more fired up. Good times.

Sounds like the scouting report on Levi Brown. Seriously, guys--the clowns we've been starting at QB since he moved over to the left side made him look way, way worse than he actually is. He's a perfectly serviceable left tackle.

I'm going to force myself to read these posts from when I was 27, but I don't expect that I'm going to like it.

EDIT: Also, when did RyanWB get perma-banned (I assume) and why? I thought he was a pretty solid Cardinals poster.

RE-EDIT: I'd like to nominate that thread for the Hall of Fame. Just pages and pages of really, really great football content, with no name-calling, no asides, no juvenile posturing. That thread was ASFN at it's absolute finest.

 

[82CardsGrad]

3 years. That's my guess. But only if we build the OL. We'll be slightly competitive in year 2 but no threat in the division. Along a 3 year process, we'll have the opportunity to get a QB, but need to nail it when we do.

Luv the optimism Donald... And again - hope I'm wrong... The reality is that the Cards have a horrendous record when it comes to 1st round QB and O-Line picks... Horrendous... Equally, their record of free agent o-line and QB acquisitions is equally horrendous (sans Warner of course).

I dunno... I say 4 years at best...

 

[Duckjake]

Kurt Warner would disagree with you. He was able to manage an equally talented offensive line and he had a ton of success. He got hit a lot, but he was still able to work with it. Aaron Rodgers, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck and Tony Romo all are successful with very offensive lines that have very little talent.

QBs in the NFL use mostly 3 to 5 step drops which should cause the ball to come out within 2.5 seconds of the snap. It's the QBs determination to hold onto the ball longer to make a bigger play if they feel the protection allows it. There will always be plays which are the exceptions, but even this year, the Cardinals offensive line gave it's QBs 2.5 seconds at least half the time.

That's ridiculous. Only Lyle Sendlein was playing the same position on the offensive line the last 2 seasons. Warner was the only Cardinal QB to play with the same 5 guys on the oline for two years in a row since the 1970's. He is a terrible example.

Gandy was gone, Brown moved to LT, Lutui was run off, Wells was run off. Faneca played a year and retired.

Try again.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Kurt Warner would disagree with you. He was able to manage an equally talented offensive line and he had a ton of success. He got hit a lot, but he was still able to work with it. Aaron Rodgers, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck and Tony Romo all are successful with very offensive lines that have very little talent.

QBs in the NFL use mostly 3 to 5 step drops which should cause the ball to come out within 2.5 seconds of the snap. It's the QBs determination to hold onto the ball longer to make a bigger play if they feel the protection allows it. There will always be plays which are the exceptions, but even this year, the Cardinals offensive line gave it's QBs 2.5 seconds at least half the time.

I would question your definition of "success" with regard to some of those QB's. The ones that have been successful (success = post season), benefited from an o-line that was able to produce a solid/effect ruchign attack.
Stafford, Cutler, Brees, Manning, Big Ben and Romo all failed to reach the post season this year. While there always more than one singular reason for a teams' failures, many would argue that ineffective run games were a big contributor to the problems these QB's faced this past season.

 

[daves]

Wow, as bad as things are, i have a hard time believing that it will take four years for the Cardinals to be able to compete for the playoffs.

How does the Cardinals' current talent compare to that of the 2011 & 2012 Colts? (Granted the Cardinals won't likely be able to add someone like Luck but if they can add a top-20 QB i think they'll have much more talent on the rest of the team than the 2012 Colts).

If the Cardinals can add a QB like Alex Smith and solidify the O-line in the draft, then ride Smith for a couple of years while drafting a promising QB this year or next, they may be able to follow in the steps of the 49ers, who went from bad to very good with Smith, then even better when they replaced Smith with the promising young QB they had drafted. Granted, it won't be easy to find another QB nearly as good as Kaepernick.

Making significant improvements to the O while maintaining a pretty good D shouldn't be too difficult. The biggest challenge, i think, will be the strength of the division opponents.

...dave

 

[Jetstream Green]

Remember, we are so bad that we beat the Patriots in Foxboro and then would have beat the Falcons in Atlanta if we only would have had a decent QB. We need a QB. The problem as mentioned is not whether or not we are bad, we have the Niners who are now elite and the Seahawks who are chumpin' at their heels

 

[Duckjake]

Remember, we are so bad that we beat the Patriots in Foxboro and then would have beat the Falcons in Atlanta if we only would have had a decent QB. We need a QB. The problem as mentioned is not whether or not we are bad, we have the Niners who are now elite and the Seahawks who are chumpin' at their heels

And the Cards beat both those teams within the last 13 months. So they aren't so tough we can't beat them again. The Cards were 10-2 in the division 2008-2009 then were 1-5 in 2010. Things change fast in the NFL.

 

[Jetstream Green]

And the Cards beat both those teams within the last 13 months. So they aren't so tough we can't beat them again. The Cards were 10-2 in the division 2008-2009 then were 1-5 in 2010. Things change fast in the NFL.

One thing is readily apparent Duck, that this front office better start acting aggressive in the future due to the rate this league changes so fast. It all goes hand in hand, from the field to the desks....one must crack the whip

 

[Duckjake]

One think is apparent Duck, this front office better start acting aggressive in the future due to the rate this league changes so fast. It all goes hand in hand, from the field to the desks....one must crack the whip

And the human snail is no longer in the front office

 

[Superfuzz]

We're not that bad. I would not be at all surprised to break even next year. Most of our issues were with coaching, gameplanning and talent evaluation. Now, I'm not expecting us to go 8-8 if Lindley is starting opening day, but I think it's a given we'll have some fresh faces in here. The worst is already over. Some people are being just a tad melodramatic, methinks.