So, how good is this team going to be?

[BC867]

Why? Morris is never going to be an above-average banger among PFs. If you force him to go head-to-head against a player who is bigger and stronger, he's probably going to struggle. The strategy should be to look where you have an advantage over your opponents, not to go after a particular position or style just because someone says that "that's what PFs are supposed to do."

That might be true if the opposing Power Forward sticks with Frye or Morris all the time.

If a defending Wing with good height switches onto Frye outside (which happens) and their two Power players stay inside, our Center is left as the only "big" man inside.

Y'know, like when Amar'e was our defacto Center. It is what did him in. Fatigue, injuries, foul trouble, riding the bench when we needed him most. It is not the way to compete in the NBA, especially down the stretch and in the post-season.

 

[elindholm]

If a defending Wing with good height switches onto Frye outside (which happens) and their two Power players stay inside, our Center is left as the only "big" man inside.

So what? How many teams use two low-post players simultaneously? It's like complaining that having your SG play off the ball leaves you with only one primary ball-handler. Given the size of today's NBA big men, you don't want two low-post players in the same offensive set; it's going to give you lousy spacing and make it far too easy for the defense to sag into the middle.

Y'know, like when Amar'e was our defacto Center. It is what did him in.

Nonsense.

Fatigue, injuries, foul trouble, riding the bench when we needed him most.

Stoudemire's "fatigue" was from trying to force the issue without ever developing proper footwork, convincing up-fakes, or any other standard low-post skills.

There's no evidence whatsoever that his injuries resulted from having played center instead of power forward; I could just as easily argue that he got injured from not playing center exclusively. In fact he did a lot more jumping, quick cuts, and other taxing things to his legs when he was playing farther from the basket.

His foul trouble was his own doing, from poor lateral quickness, a tendency to play defense with his hands instead of his feet, and his propensity to commit offensive fouls rather than pass out of bad situations.

It is not the way to compete in the NBA, especially down the stretch and in the post-season.

If you think that pigeonholing Markieff Morris into a traditional PF role is the difference between post-season success and failure for these Suns, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[BC867]

If you think that pigeonholing Markieff Morris into a traditional PF role is the difference between post-season success and failure for these Suns, I don't know what to tell you.

By emulating Frye last season, camping out 23 feet from the basket, Morris did himself in. His role this season seems unclear, but it is certainly not as our starting PF. And as many on this board have pointed out, his arms are too short to ever be an NBA finals starting Power Forward.

Your responses of "Nonsense" and "I don't know what to tell you" are classic debate tactics. But they have no connection with the success or failure of our hometown Suns that we want to see grow to be playoff ready.

 

[overseascardfan]

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/335857-surprise-playoff-contender-rising-in-the-west

This year's team getting some love in this Hoopshype article citing the acquisitions of O'Neal, Scola & Dragic as the reason. However, unless PHX signed 2003 Jermaine O'Neal, 2010 Luis Scola and All-Star Goran Dragic I do not see this team winning more than 40 games.

 

[elindholm]

By emulating Frye last season, camping out 23 feet from the basket, Morris did himself in. His role this season seems unclear, but it is certainly not as our starting PF.

No, but that's because of a lack of ability, not because he "did himself in" by playing to his strengths last season.

And as many on this board have pointed out, his arms are too short to ever be an NBA finals starting Power Forward.

All the more reason not to force him into situations where he's unlikely to succeed, wouldn't you agree?

Your responses of "Nonsense" and "I don't know what to tell you" are classic debate tactics. But they have no connection with the success or failure of our hometown Suns that we want to see grow to be playoff ready.

Sorry, I didn't realize you had any interest in a point-on-point debate, but I'd welcome one. So let's start by having you explain how forcing a tweener forward with short arms but a pretty good shooting stroke into a role as Truck Robinson Lite is going to help the Suns down the path to a championship.

What you don't seem to understand is that a player can't change who he is just to fit what his team needs. NBA players, for the most part, have been practicing basketball their whole lives -- asking for someone to evolve into a different player, already 15-20 years into developing his basketball craft, is pretty futile.

If you want a starting-caliber, classic-inside PF on the Suns, you'll have to wait for them to go out and get one. Looking at the guys on the roster and saying, "Maybe Frye or Morris can do it" is just going to lead to frustration. If those guys had to make it in the league based on their traditional PF skills, they never would have been drafted in the first place. It's not what they do, and no matter how hard they work at it, they'll never be above average among NBA power forwards.

 

[Superbone]

...his arms are too short to ever be an NBA finals starting Power Forward.

Nonsense!

And I suppose Charles Barkley was too short to ever be an NBA Finals starting power forward.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Nonsense!

And I suppose Charles Barkley was too short to ever be an NBA Finals starting power forward.

No, but clearly he was too short to ever be an NBA Championship power forward. I'm sorry, all you have to do is look at the list of players on championship or finals teams through the years to realize that winning teams are comprised of players with long arms, players with short arms and players in between. And, it's not like Morris has dinosaur arms. They look to be about average for his height.

Steve

 

[BC867]

So let's start by having you explain how forcing a tweener forward with short arms but a pretty good shooting stroke into a role as Truck Robinson Lite is going to help the Suns down the path to a championship.

What you don't seem to understand is that a player can't change who he is just to fit what his team needs. NBA players, for the most part, have been practicing basketball their whole lives -- asking for someone to evolve into a different player, already 15-20 years into developing his basketball craft, is pretty futile.

Of course I understand and agree with that. That is why I said about Morris, "His role this season seems unclear, but it is certainly not as our starting PF."

 

[JCSunsfan]

So. After stepping away for a couple of weeks, and then looking at our present roster, my mind has changed somewhat. Let's look at comparisons to last year.

Interior offense. The addition of Scola and that maturity of Morris has to make this team better in this area. The only loss is Robin Lopez and Scola more than makes up for that.

Outside offense: The loss of Nash's shooting is a big loss, but Dragic isn't bad. Scola is also a consistent midrange shooter. There is a small drop off here, but not much.

Defense: This has to be a huge improvement. Scola is better, Jermaine ONeal, if healthy is a better shotblocker than Lopez. Dragic is a much better wing defender than Nash. The only thing that hurts our defense is if Beasley gets lots of minutes.

Speed: Wash.

Ball movement: Again, the loss of Nash is huge, but the ball can move better elsewhere. Scola, Morris, etc are good passers. Again, as long as the ball doesn't die in Beasley's hands, we are OK.

Athleticism: We did not lose much, and we gained some, with younger players.

Depth. This team is deeper than last year.

So, the big difference is the "star factor." Last year it was Nash, this year its an ensemble. Expectations are low. I think this team will be an upside surprise. It has a combo of vet leadership and youth. It is still significantly younger than last year. HMMM.

This will be a more conventional team than the Suns have had in, well, ever. Its not built for small ball or for speed ball. Its built for conventional basketball.

 

[BC867]

This will be a more conventional team than the Suns have had in, well, ever. Its not built for small ball or for speed ball. Its built for conventional basketball.

There is a Santa Claus!!

 

[Phrazbit]

So. After stepping away for a couple of weeks, and then looking at our present roster, my mind has changed somewhat. Let's look at comparisons to last year.

Interior offense. The addition of Scola and that maturity of Morris has to make this team better in this area. The only loss is Robin Lopez and Scola more than makes up for that.

Outside offense: The loss of Nash's shooting is a big loss, but Dragic isn't bad. Scola is also a consistent midrange shooter. There is a small drop off here, but not much.

Defense: This has to be a huge improvement. Scola is better, Jermaine ONeal, if healthy is a better shotblocker than Lopez. Dragic is a much better wing defender than Nash. The only thing that hurts our defense is if Beasley gets lots of minutes.

Speed: Wash.

Ball movement: Again, the loss of Nash is huge, but the ball can move better elsewhere. Scola, Morris, etc are good passers. Again, as long as the ball doesn't die in Beasley's hands, we are OK.

Athleticism: We did not lose much, and we gained some, with younger players.

Depth. This team is deeper than last year.

So, the big difference is the "star factor." Last year it was Nash, this year its an ensemble. Expectations are low. I think this team will be an upside surprise. It has a combo of vet leadership and youth. It is still significantly younger than last year. HMMM.

This will be a more conventional team than the Suns have had in, well, ever. Its not built for small ball or for speed ball. Its built for conventional basketball.

I dont think it breaks down so simply. Basketball isnt a collection of individual parts like say... baseball is. The stuff has to fit together. Ball movement for example. I like Dragic but he is a score first PG, and Beasley is one of the biggest ball-stoppers in the entire league. That is an area where the Suns have probably gone from an A+ to a D.

Defensively Scola and Beasley are both pretty inept, we lost, by far, our best perimeter defender in Hill. Our interior defense and rebounding both look to be highly suspect. The only decent rebounder on the entire roster is Gortat.

What will this team be good at? Its one of the least athletic rosters in the league, they are sub par defensively at virtually ever position, they will probably be one of the worst rebounding teams in the league.

The only strength I can think of is mid-range shooting. At every other aspect this team looks to be sub-par.

 

[Errntknght]

If everyone plays the way their prior history in the league indicates this is a 30 win team - and it could get really ugly if most of the guys decide its in their best interest to showcase their individual skills to improve their chances of getting PT with a better team. I think its a bad avenue to take but it might not seem that way to them. It might start with Beasley getting PT despite being a ball stopper at one end and useless at the other. Say Gentry rewards him for what he believes are tiny improvements.

 

[Mainstreet]

So. After stepping away for a couple of weeks, and then looking at our present roster, my mind has changed somewhat. Let's look at comparisons to last year.

Interior offense. The addition of Scola and that maturity of Morris has to make this team better in this area. The only loss is Robin Lopez and Scola more than makes up for that.

Outside offense: The loss of Nash's shooting is a big loss, but Dragic isn't bad. Scola is also a consistent midrange shooter. There is a small drop off here, but not much.

Defense: This has to be a huge improvement. Scola is better, Jermaine ONeal, if healthy is a better shotblocker than Lopez. Dragic is a much better wing defender than Nash. The only thing that hurts our defense is if Beasley gets lots of minutes.

Speed: Wash.

Ball movement: Again, the loss of Nash is huge, but the ball can move better elsewhere. Scola, Morris, etc are good passers. Again, as long as the ball doesn't die in Beasley's hands, we are OK.

Athleticism: We did not lose much, and we gained some, with younger players.

Depth. This team is deeper than last year.

So, the big difference is the "star factor." Last year it was Nash, this year its an ensemble. Expectations are low. I think this team will be an upside surprise. It has a combo of vet leadership and youth. It is still significantly younger than last year. HMMM.

This will be a more conventional team than the Suns have had in, well, ever. Its not built for small ball or for speed ball. Its built for conventional basketball.

I think your analysis is very similar to my analysis as noted on the first page of this thread.

The way I see it, the Suns are immediately improved at the PF and Center position with the addition of Scola. IMO, SF is no worse than a wash as Hill finished the season injured. I really do not see much change at SG except Michael Redd will likely not return. So that leaves the PG position. The Suns should have better depth there, but how much do the Suns lose with Dragic starting instead of Nash? This is an unknown. The Suns could crash and burn if Dragic does not perform well or overachieve if he plays well. I guess 35 wins sounds about right not knowing how Dragic will perform. It could be better or much, much worse.

The Suns season will rise or fall much on how Dragic performs. He was brought in originally to be Nash's eventual replacement. Now we will find out if he can do the job with a modicum of success.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If everyone plays the way their prior history in the league indicates this is a 30 win team - and it could get really ugly if most of the guys decide its in their best interest to showcase their individual skills to improve their chances of getting PT with a better team. I think its a bad avenue to take but it might not seem that way to them. It might start with Beasley getting PT despite being a ball stopper at one end and useless at the other. Say Gentry rewards him for what he believes are tiny improvements.

I agree with the reasoning but if you're correct, I doubt we'll win anywhere near 30 wins. Our one-two punch of Dragic and Gortat would be among the weakest in the league and if the rest of the roster looks out for number one, I could see this team finishing with 20 wins or fewer. The good news is that I think it's also possible that the players will respond to Gentry and if one or two of them play up to their "draft pedigree", this team could be in a playoff race for much of the season.

I'm looking forward to seeing what this group can do but I have no expectations. If they come out and play smart team basketball but lose more often than not because we lack that true star, I'll consider it a great first year in the rebuild process. If they come out and do what you suggested they might, I'll begin my annual "wait until next year" routine a lot earlier than desired.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Barbosa reports he is being recruited by the Suns, Nets and Lakers among others per HoopsHype link.

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

It will be great to have LB back with the Suns from a fans perspective. Obviously if LB is looking for a ring, the other teams have more allure.

 

[elindholm]

Barbosa is probably better than any SG currently on the Suns' roster, so sure, bring him in.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Barbosa reports he is being recruited by the Suns, Nets and Lakers among others per HoopsHype link.

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

It will be great to have LB back with the Suns from a fans perspective. Obviously if LB is looking for a ring, the other teams have more allure.

LB is not of that class of players that has the luxury of shopping for a team that gives him a shot at a ring. LB is just looking for a job--a place where he will fit in and get minutes.

He ought to be thrilled if the Suns are considering him. I am not sure the Suns should sign him. Its one of those, mediocre quantity is a negative, things.

An LB signing would pretty ho, hum.

 

[Mainstreet]

LB is not of that class of players that has the luxury of shopping for a team that gives him a shot at a ring. LB is just looking for a job--a place where he will fit in and get minutes.

He ought to be thrilled if the Suns are considering him. I am not sure the Suns should sign him. Its one of those, mediocre quantity is a negative, things.

An LB signing would pretty ho, hum.

I agree more with elindholm. Barbosa is about as good as any SG the Suns have on their roster. IMO, he could get minutes and help the Suns in a 82 game schedule. It's not like the Suns are golden at SG. Besides, the Suns almost raised this young man. I'm shocked an NBA team has not already snatched him up. The Suns would be lucky to get him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't know. I would see it kind of like the Redd signing last year.

But I could be wrong. I usually am.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't know. I would see it kind of like the Redd signing last year.

But I could be wrong. I usually am.

The only similarity with Redd is that they play the same position. That's it.

 

[Superbone]

The only similarity with Redd is that they play the same position. That's it.

Lack of defense?

 

[Chaplin]

Lack of defense?

Surprised you don't know what I meant, but ok. Lack of defense too.

(This is more about the signings of the players, not the players themselves. But even so, LB still is better than Redd across the board)

 

[JCSunsfan]

Just talking about overall impact, not specifics. I wasn't even thinking about the fact that they play the same position.

The similarity to me would be that they are both vet players who have seen better days but might have a chance at improving some. They will sit at the end of the bench, or in the best situation work into the rotation and take away minutes from other players. They are not part of the future. They would both be depth signings that tend to complicate rotations rather than help.

Obviously some have a higher view of LB than I do, and I could be wrong. Its not that I think that Shannon Brown is that much better than Barbosa. I don't. Flip a coin with those two. Its just that Brown is already signed. If he wasn't here, then a Barbosa signing would make much more sense. You can't make up for signing a mediocre player by signing another one. You are better off just sticking with the one you chose.

 

[Errntknght]

I'll take Shannon Brown over Leandro. Barbs has been a trifle better at shooting but he's on the decline and Shannon is on the rise. The latter has gotten his TO's and PF's down to a nice low level, too, while Leo is the same foul machine he's always been. I haven't watched him lately but while he was here he was a very poor defender. Brown is not great but he's nothing like Barbs. He has the edge in rebounding and blocks with Leandro topping him in assists.

 

[Chaplin]

Just talking about overall impact, not specifics. I wasn't even thinking about the fact that they play the same position.

The similarity to me would be that they are both vet players who have seen better days but might have a chance at improving some. They will sit at the end of the bench, or in the best situation work into the rotation and take away minutes from other players. They are not part of the future. They would both be depth signings that tend to complicate rotations rather than help.

Obviously some have a higher view of LB than I do, and I could be wrong. Its not that I think that Shannon Brown is that much better than Barbosa. I don't. Flip a coin with those two. Its just that Brown is already signed. If he wasn't here, then a Barbosa signing would make much more sense. You can't make up for signing a mediocre player by signing another one. You are better off just sticking with the one you chose.

Michael Redd was damaged goods. I mean, REALLY damaged goods and our training staff worked a miracle and made him a serviceable player. LB statistically might not be better, but the circumstances are completely different.