So long, Mr. Pace!

[CardLogic]

This is not quantum physics...


Gotta love it.

Loved this post! It made me laugh. It acurately sums up the crazy dynamics of a message board. Everyone has got a rant which they feel is vital; and no one is listening...

We're all bozos on this bus!

 

[WildBB]

Wild, do you work for Parker or the Cardinals? There's no possible way that you can know where the Cards are right now. You've only heard one side of the story, and that is the Arizona Cardinals'. If you want to believe them, that's fine, but it's not a fact that the Cards are offering Larry Fitzgerald market value or anything else, because what you have is a bunch of debateable semi-true numbers that no one wants attributed to them.

I'm not blaming Graves right now; I'm not blaming Fitz. But to state as fact that the Cards are offering a fair deal to Fitz? Unless your Graves, Parker, Fitz, or a Bidwill, you have no idea.

Woahh Nelly, back up the truck up there. First off, I was responding to Rugy's contention that Fitz should take any offer the Cards throw out there , so to satisfy the "keep Pace contingent",

Look , I'm not pretending I know what transpired. But I make my educated guess, as many here have been discussing for days. Here it is.

The Cards, hoping to wrap up a star reciever for 6 yrs. offered him top $$$$ on that contract. From what they're saying "3rd highest salary in the NFL". I don't know if thats average salary or total package. It probobly makes a big difference.

Parker probobly initially indicated that he and Fitz would rather deal with a shorter term contract , to make Fitz a new deal after 3 yrs. That was not acceptable to the Cards.

So this is where we're at right now IMO. Cards offer alot, they want less years. 5 seems to be the compromise. And as Joe pointed out they just need to agree on guaranteed $$$$ and the signing bonus. That's most on here's educated guess as to what's transpired, since that was what was leaked in the Media.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Look , I'm not pretending I know what transpired. But I make my educated guess, as many here have been discussing for days. Here it is.

The Cards, hoping to wrap up a star reciever for 6 yrs. offered him top $$$$ on that contract. From what they're saying "3rd highest salary in the NFL". I don't know if thats average salary or total package. It probobly makes a big difference.

Parker probobly initially indicated that he and Fitz would rather deal with a shorter term contract , to make Fitz a new deal after 3 yrs. That was not acceptable to the Cards.

So this is where we're at right now IMO. Cards offer alot, they want less years. 5 seems to be the compromise. And as Joe pointed out they just need to agree on guaranteed $$$$ and the signing bonus. That's most on here's educated guess as to what's transpired, since that was what was leaked in the Media.

I didn't understand the first part (with the sarcasm). I'll grant that your intentions are true.

The Cards said a Top 5 non-QB package, and the richest contract in the history of the franchise. Well, that statement is so general it could mean anything.

I absolutely believe that both sides are currently working in good faith. I don't think--with the information we have on hand--that anyone can say that one side is "to blame" for not having a resolution to this problem.

My guess is that Fitz and his people want to be able to get another deal done before #11 turns 30. You can't parse the language that's out in the media right now much more than to say that something is being worked on.
I really think that something will get done. The team wasn't going to re-sign Pace. I think that's clear once the season ended and he didn't have a new deal. Faneca was never an option.

I think that the deal they reach will pay Fitz some $45-50 million over 4 years, with some $10 million being paid out in roster bonuses this season, and another $10 million in bonuses next year.

 

[WildBB]

I didn't understand the first part (with the sarcasm). I'll grant that your intentions are true.

The Cards said a Top 5 non-QB package, and the richest contract in the history of the franchise. Well, that statement is so general it could mean anything.

I absolutely believe that both sides are currently working in good faith. I don't think--with the information we have on hand--that anyone can say that one side is "to blame" for not having a resolution to this problem.

My guess is that Fitz and his people want to be able to get another deal done before #11 turns 30. You can't parse the language that's out in the media right now much more than to say that something is being worked on.
I really think that something will get done. The team wasn't going to re-sign Pace. I think that's clear once the season ended and he didn't have a new deal. Faneca was never an option.

I think that the deal they reach will pay Fitz some $45-50 million over 4 years, with some $10 million being paid out in roster bonuses this season, and another $10 million in bonuses next year.

The sarcasm part was Rugby's saying - well forget it. It's not worth gettin into more.

The 4yr. deal is what's holding things up on the Cards side. They want five yrs on the deal fore sure, so they can deal again AFTER 4 yrs. when the largest CAP hit comes. That's JMO.

 

[NightHawk11and81]

Dang shame that Fitz is being such a pain right now. I'd love to get Pace back, and I think we could do it at a reasonable price. We just can't do it with Fitz at an unreasonable one.

 

[HookemCards]

I didn't understand the first part (with the sarcasm). I'll grant that your intentions are true.

The Cards said a Top 5 non-QB package, and the richest contract in the history of the franchise. Well, that statement is so general it could mean anything.

I absolutely believe that both sides are currently working in good faith. I don't think--with the information we have on hand--that anyone can say that one side is "to blame" for not having a resolution to this problem.

My guess is that Fitz and his people want to be able to get another deal done before #11 turns 30. You can't parse the language that's out in the media right now much more than to say that something is being worked on.
I really think that something will get done. The team wasn't going to re-sign Pace. I think that's clear once the season ended and he didn't have a new deal. Faneca was never an option.

I think that the deal they reach will pay Fitz some $45-50 million over 4 years, with some $10 million being paid out in roster bonuses this season, and another $10 million in bonuses next year.

There is no doubt that Parker wants to get another huge payday before Fitz turns 30. There is no other reason to want a 4 year deal. If they sign the six year deal, the guaranteed money would be more.

I also don't agree that the Cards don't want to, or won't resign Pace. I think if we can get Fitz's deal done soon, Pace will resign here all things being equal, its just right now we can't offer him much.

Not sure why the Cards would do roster bonuses this year and next year on the new contract, unless they feel like we can't win for 2 years and are going to make a huge splash in 2010. But after last years roster bonus fiasco does anyone really trust Graves to use the saved money wisely in 2 years?

 

[ajcardfan]

Dang shame that Fitz is being such a pain right now. I'd love to get Pace back, and I think we could do it at a reasonable price. We just can't do it with Fitz at an unreasonable one.

If you think about 20 mil guaranteed is reasonable, then yeah, we could get Pace back at a "reasonable" price. Just don't be surprised when training camp rolls around and both Wilson and Dockett are wanting new deals.

 

[DaisyCutter]

There is no doubt that Parker wants to get another huge payday before Fitz turns 30. There is no other reason to want a 4 year deal. If they sign the six year deal, the guaranteed money would be more.

I also don't agree that the Cards don't want to, or won't resign Pace. I think if we can get Fitz's deal done soon, Pace will resign here all things being equal, its just right now we can't offer him much.

Not sure why the Cards would do roster bonuses this year and next year on the new contract, unless they feel like we can't win for 2 years and are going to make a huge splash in 2010. But after last years roster bonus fiasco does anyone really trust Graves to use the saved money wisely in 2 years?

I think the Cards will do roster bonuses on Fitz's deal because that will lower his cap number this season (where he already counts $16 million or whatever) and next season (when his cost goes up even more) without extending the "spent costs" even longer. A lot of teams are using roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses (the 49ers did it last year with Clements' contract; the Vikings did it with Winfield's a few years ago). The roster bonuses are a good idea when so many teams are going into free agency with a lot of money, but not many players to spend it on. Roster bonuses are not a bad idea in and of themselves.

The Cards were never going to be big players on the FA market. That's not the way the market shapes up anymore, especially if you are not a team that is trying to become competitive. The Cards obviously feel that they're already a competitive franchise--no matter what we think. They're going to look to add pieces on the margins, and you don't need $20 million in salary cap space to do that with.

It's not that they don't feel they can't win for two years. It's that they already feel that they can win, and that the free agency market is so insane that they're not going to overpay.

If you think about 20 mil guaranteed is reasonable, then yeah, we could get Pace back at a "reasonable" price. Just don't be surprised when training camp rolls around and both Wilson and Dockett are wanting new deals.

That's the thing. Without worrying about Dockett/Boldin/Dansby/Wilson, when Pace's price started to look like $20 million guaranteed, they decided that they'd let Pace find out if he could get that deal. If it turns out that he can only get $15 million guaranteed, I think the Cards will find a way to get back into the deal.

Being on the hook for Fitz has nothing to do with it.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Agreed.

So Pace has been here at AZ for 5 years.

1 out of the five years he played solid (not great, not all pro, solid)

So we have a 20% chance the guy is going to play solid next year based on what has happened during the season when Calvin Pace has been a Cardinal.

I guess 20% is enough to prove that huge 14 million contract.

It is not enough proof for me but what do I know.

Ahh, for a while, I thought I was the only one here who doesn't think Pace showed enough to warrant the ridiculous salary, he will get from whoever.

The light went on for this guy, in a contract year.. nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Ahh, for a while, I thought I was the only one here who doesn't think Pace showed enough to warrant the ridiculous salary, he will get from whoever.

The light went on for this guy, in a contract year.. nothing more, nothing less.

The light went on when coaches finally found a way to use his talents in a 3-4 D... nothing more, nothing less.

 

[gohard83]

hahaha great post

 

[HookemCards]

I think the Cards will do roster bonuses on Fitz's deal because that will lower his cap number this season (where he already counts $16 million or whatever) and next season (when his cost goes up even more) without extending the "spent costs" even longer. A lot of teams are using roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses (the 49ers did it last year with Clements' contract; the Vikings did it with Winfield's a few years ago). The roster bonuses are a good idea when so many teams are going into free agency with a lot of money, but not many players to spend it on. Roster bonuses are not a bad idea in and of themselves.

The Cards were never going to be big players on the FA market. That's not the way the market shapes up anymore, especially if you are not a team that is trying to become competitive. The Cards obviously feel that they're already a competitive franchise--no matter what we think. They're going to look to add pieces on the margins, and you don't need $20 million in salary cap space to do that with.

It's not that they don't feel they can't win for two years. It's that they already feel that they can win, and that the free agency market is so insane that they're not going to overpay.

Fitz is due 30 mil in salary the next two years, so the only way he would do the deal with two 10 million roster bonuses is if his salary is astronomical, so you wouldn't be lowering his cap number either year. Not to mention the fact that the 10 mil next year wouldn't be guaranteed. If he got hurt this year, all he would get is this years roster bonus and salary. No way Fitz would sign that deal.

How does an 8-8 team with easiest schedule in the league, that can't even manage to resign two of the better players on that team feel it can win now? Not only are we not going to be big players in FA, but we aren't going to resign BJ or Pace. I'm tired of drafting players and developing them for other teams.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Ahh, for a while, I thought I was the only one here who doesn't think Pace showed enough to warrant the ridiculous salary, he will get from whoever.

The light went on for this guy, in a contract year.. nothing more, nothing less.

apparently you didn't do a very good job of it

 

[NightHawk11and81]

If you think about 20 mil guaranteed is reasonable, then yeah, we could get Pace back at a "reasonable" price. Just don't be surprised when training camp rolls around and both Wilson and Dockett are wanting new deals.

To be fair, I made that post before I saw what Miami offered him. So much for that.

 

[Chopper0080]

Pace is the very reason that free agency can cripple an organization. I will preface this by saying that I think we saw this year what Pace will do the remainder of his career or at least close to it. I think that his ceiling has been reached and at 27 he isn't going to have another jump in production that most younger players have.

The problem with Pace is that you are paying for his production in 1 year of his career and ignoring the other years that he wasn't nearly as productive. This is why a 15 to 20 million dollar bonus is overwhelming even if it might be the market value now days. There are so many variables with him that you have to think twice before investing money in him that might hinder your organization down the road. You can make the arguement that he wasn't used correctly in the previous years that he was with the Cardinals but that can be a very dangerous assumption to make financially. Pace reminds me of Carlos Emmons a few years back where he has limited production over his career but has the potential to be a solid linebacker. The only caveat with him is that I don't believe that he will ever be an impact defensive player and I am not sure that I am eager to shell out 15-20 mil guaranteed on an average defensive player.

 

[Stout]

Agreed.

So Pace has been here at AZ for 5 years.

1 out of the five years he played solid (not great, not all pro, solid)

So we have a 20% chance the guy is going to play solid next year based on what has happened during the season when Calvin Pace has been a Cardinal.

I guess 20% is enough to prove that huge 14 million contract.

It is not enough proof for me but what do I know.

Wow...this logic is so faulty I shouldn't even have explain, but I guess I have to. So, if a player doesn't play well in a season, that has a direct percentile impact on the chances of him playing well in another season? Gosh, if we knew that earlier, we could know exactly what the chances each and every player in the league had of being good. Man, if we had known of this formula before, we could've had the best roster in the league by now. Unless, of course, such a formula is in every way illogical, irrational, and downright wrong. Which it is.

You can't reduce it to some kind of percentage formula, Rugby. He played in the 4-3, he couldn't play. He played in the 3-4, he showed the ability to be a great player. Will he become great? Solid? Average? No way of knowing, but placing a 20 percent chance on each year to figure it out is simply not smart.

 

[SECTION 11]

Wow...this logic is so faulty I shouldn't even have explain, but I guess I have to. So, if a player doesn't play well in a season, that has a direct percentile impact on the chances of him playing well in another season? Gosh, if we knew that earlier, we could know exactly what the chances each and every player in the league had of being good. Man, if we had known of this formula before, we could've had the best roster in the league by now. Unless, of course, such a formula is in every way illogical, irrational, and downright wrong. Which it is.

You can't reduce it to some kind of percentage formula, Rugby. He played in the 4-3, he couldn't play. He played in the 3-4, he showed the ability to be a great player. Will he become great? Solid? Average? No way of knowing, but placing a 20 percent chance on each year to figure it out is simply not smart.

Pace played DE in a 3-4 at Wake Forest, he hasn't been in his position since. It's a damn shame.

 

[Stout]

Pace played DE in a 3-4 at Wake Forest, he hasn't been in his position since. It's a damn shame.

Yeah, but it was pretty obvious that though he was that in college, he was not suited to 3-4 end or 4-3 end in the pros. Suddenly he switches position and, voila! He blossoms. Strange, that, him not being a flower and all.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

apparently you didn't do a very good job of it

 

[40yearfan]

Beer goggles.