So, why the kid gloves with McCown?

[CardLogic]

I also feel a sense of dread if McCown stays healthy. I think it is very likely going to be a very ugly year for him. He is very inexperienced and it is a very steep learning curve. The starting QB has to have talent and judgement and McCown may have that. We will see. Another important and irreplaceable quality that he does not have is experience. If he plays like most rookie QBs I forsee a lot of interceptions and sacks. I hope the pain of this learning season will payoff with the Cardinals and McCown in '05.

Your statements make it appear that McCown is a rookie. He's not; as you know, this will be his third year in the NFL. Josh played in two games his rookie year; let's face it - he sucked! Last year Josh played in 8 games; started 3. The five games he sub into he looked confused to say the least, and was ineffective. But when McCown got an opportunity to run with the first team, he showed maturity and improvement with each successive start. He has now been given the reins and all indications that we are aware of indicate that he has taken the challenge head on!

Personally, and I said it before, I think McCown will surprise many people this year. I think the kid is the "real deal" and by the end of the season many Cardinals fans will be saying 'Jake who?'.

 

[ajcardfan]

by the end of the season many Cardinals fans will be saying 'Jake who?'.

I think, other than Lex and Tango, most Cards fans are saying that already.

 

[BigRedMO]

I hope you are right Card Logic. I hope at midseason there wont be gnashing of teeth and people in here saying what were we thinking when we had no real alternative plan if McCown did not work out.

 

[vikesfan]

I hope you are right Card Logic. I hope at midseason there wont be gnashing of teeth and people in here saying what were we thinking when we had no real alternative plan if McCown did not work out.

No one has more then DG to lose. He bet a million dollars on Josh and King.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

I hope you are right Card Logic. I hope at midseason there wont be gnashing of teeth and people in here saying what were we thinking when we had no real alternative plan if McCown did not work out.

Why is Shawn King not a viable option?
He's thrown more TDs than INTs and has thrown for more than 4,000 yards in 6 years and he only started one of those years. In the one year he started, he had 18 tds and 13 picks, as well as 2769 yards in the air and 353 on the ground. The last few years he has been thrown into games and hasn't had time to prepare. Remember how much better Josh looked after have time to prepare during games?

I really want to know why nobody has faith in Shaun King. Concrete answers please.

 

[This_Guy]

I really want to know why nobody has faith in Shaun King. Concrete answers please.

Bingo.

It's just perception. King is a good QB, and there's not one fact that says otherwise.

 

[BigRedMO]

Oran you gave the fact that says he is not a good QB in your post. He played for a franchise that was desperate for a guy to play QB for a team with a killer defense. They did not need an offense to produce 30 points a game with their defense. They need a a servicable QB. In that situation he started one year out of six. In their opinion he was not even servicable. When you ride the bench five out of six years that makes you a career second stringer.

Also you cant have any negative stats if you dont play. Other than the Cardinals starting Smith over Shipp I can think of no other team that started the inferior player and had the better one ride the bench.

 

[kerouac9]

Also you cant have any negative stats if you dont play. Other than the Cardinals starting Smith over Shipp I can think of no other team that started the inferior player and had the better one ride the bench.

You could argue that's what the Jets did by playing Testeverde in front of Pennington for so long. Or, Kurt Warner on the bench with Marc Bulger on the field. Or, Grossman and Chris Chandler on the bench with Kordell Stewart starting. Heck, I think that the Panthers went into 2003 with Rodney Peete as the starter instead of Jake Delhomme.

Just a couple thoughts from the peanut gallery.

 

[SECTION 11]

Bingo.

It's just perception. King is a good QB, and there's not one fact that says otherwise.

There's his last start that says otherwise. He looked horrible. Not bad, but horrible.

 

[This_Guy]

In that situation he started one year out of six. In their opinion he was not even servicable. When you ride the bench five out of six years that makes you a career second stringer.

You said yourself, that's an opinion. It happened to be the same opinion as Gruden, but Gruden loves grizzled veterans.

And if starting 1 year out of 5 makes you a career second stringer, I guess starting 0 years out of 2 also makes you a career second stringer (McCown). And as Keruoac points out, at this point last year, Delhomme was a career second stringer too.

There's his last start that says otherwise. He looked horrible. Not bad, but horrible.

Not sure why that's relevant. That was one game, and it was horrible. Doesn't make much sense to judge a QB on one game. How about Favre in the playoffs two years ago? If King had multiple horrible games, it would mean something. But since he has one of the highest winning % in the league, it remains the exception rather than the rule.

... I mean, it's not like he threw a pass backwards that bounced off a lineman's head or anything.

 

[SECTION 11]

... I mean, it's not like he threw a pass backwards that bounced off a lineman's head or anything.

Shelton should've caught that. That's why he's now second fiddle.


I dunno, I think King has absolutely no chance of beating out McCown.

 

[kerouac9]

Shelton should've caught that. That's why he's now second fiddle.


I dunno, I think King has absolutely no chance of beating out McCown.

That's right. Leonard Davis not only has better hands and better wheels at LOT, but I understand that, most importantly, he had a higher Wunderlic score than L.J. Shelton.

I do agree that Shaun King has 0% liklihood of beating out McCown. Frankly, he might have to worry more about John Navarre sneaking up on him. I don't think that King has a reputation as a cerebral player (but we should check his Wunderlic before finalizing that).

Navarre also, I understand, is a good basketball player. I don't think that we can underestimate that factor in rating our QBs.

 

[SECTION 11]

That's right. Leonard Davis not only has better hands and better wheels at LOT, but I understand that, most importantly, he had a higher Wunderlic score than L.J. Shelton.

Pluck, tuck, run to daylight.
I don't see why so many left tackles have a hard time understanding this.

 

[kerouac9]

Pluck, tuck, run to daylight.
I don't see why so many left tackles have a hard time understanding this.

I understand the the LOT screen is going to be one of the hallmarks of our offense. That's why we moved Anquan to Split End: his blocking abilities.

 

[Rivercard]

Not sure why that's relevant. That was one game, and it was horrible. Doesn't make much sense to judge a QB on one game. How about Favre in the playoffs two years ago?

Hold on there buckaroo. Favre has continually proven that he's a franchise player. King has proven nothing.

 

[This_Guy]

I do agree that Shaun King has 0% liklihood of beating out McCown.

That is correct, because Green has always been committed to giving McCown his shot. However, IMHO, King would easily beat out McCown in an open competition. We'll all get to see in training camp. FYI- King was the best QB in Tampa last pre-season, but it wasn't an open competition there either.

I don't think that King has a reputation as a cerebral player

He did graduate in 4 years from Tulane's Business School while playing football. As a senior in college, threw 38 TDs and 6 INTs, as a rookie threw 7 TDs and 4 INTs, and his starting year threw 18 TDs and 13 INTs, so decision-making hasn't been a problem for him.

 

[vikesfan]

That is correct, because Green has always been committed to giving McCown his shot. However, IMHO, King would easily beat out McCown in an open competition. We'll all get to see in training camp. FYI- King was the best QB in Tampa last pre-season, but it wasn't an open competition there either.
He did graduate in 4 years from Tulane's Business School while playing football. As a senior in college, threw 38 TDs and 6 INTs, as a rookie threw 7 TDs and 4 INTs, and his starting year threw 18 TDs and 13 INTs, so decision-making hasn't been a problem for him.

Dude I love your stats on King.

 

[Russ Smith]

Why is Shawn King not a viable option?
He's thrown more TDs than INTs and has thrown for more than 4,000 yards in 6 years and he only started one of those years. In the one year he started, he had 18 tds and 13 picks, as well as 2769 yards in the air and 353 on the ground. The last few years he has been thrown into games and hasn't had time to prepare. Remember how much better Josh looked after have time to prepare during games?

I really want to know why nobody has faith in Shaun King. Concrete answers please.

King played in a very "friendly" offense in terms of TD to INT ratio, the Bucs ran the ball and relied on their defense, they never asked King to make a lot of plays in fact they asked him not to try and make plays. For all my knocking of Jake even I admit that if Jake and King had switched teams then, Jake would have thrown less picks and King would have thrown more.

Part of that you can argue is WR talent, the Cards thought we had enough talent to throw the ball, the Bucs didn't think so. But King just wasn't that good. That year he started he completed only 54% of his passes for just 6.5 YPA which is not good at all. When you consider that the Bucs were a running team and not a throwing team, you realize that King was not exactly facing a bunch of nickel and dime coverages he was facing 8 man fronts, you're supposed to shred those defenses, he couldn't.

To his credit he didn't force balls and throw picks to lose games, he was smart enough to let the defense and run game win games, we don't have the Bucs defense.

I also don't believe King has a "big" enough arm to take advantage of our WR's.

 

[vikesfan]

King played in a very "friendly" offense in terms of TD to INT ratio, the Bucs ran the ball and relied on their defense, they never asked King to make a lot of plays in fact they asked him not to try and make plays. For all my knocking of Jake even I admit that if Jake and King had switched teams then, Jake would have thrown less picks and King would have thrown more.

Part of that you can argue is WR talent, the Cards thought we had enough talent to throw the ball, the Bucs didn't think so. But King just wasn't that good. That year he started he completed only 54% of his passes for just 6.5 YPA which is not good at all. When you consider that the Bucs were a running team and not a throwing team, you realize that King was not exactly facing a bunch of nickel and dime coverages he was facing 8 man fronts, you're supposed to shred those defenses, he couldn't.

To his credit he didn't force balls and throw picks to lose games, he was smart enough to let the defense and run game win games, we don't have the Bucs defense.

I also don't believe King has a "big" enough arm to take advantage of our WR's.

You can't have it both ways if the Bucs were a running team then King was not allowed to be a big passer.

 

[MastersofCombat]

Read this a season or two ago;
Shaun King posted those numbers with the least amount of pressure than any QB in the league. He put up decent average numbers under those circumstances. I think alot of coordinators and coaches know they get that much or more outta QBs with half of that time. Its not a knock, but I do think alot of coaches believe his numbers shouldve been far higher than they were.

 

[black]

Bingo.

It's just perception. King is a good QB, and there's not one fact that says otherwise.

With a good offensive line and coaching, anyone of the two can step in and do a good job. The Cards have a good WR corp., if not the best. I wouldn't care if Reuben Stoddard was QB....get us to the play offs!

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Allright, Allright, gentleman. Lets stop all the blah, blah, blah about how bad/good King is for now. It's pointless. Lets make our final, intelligent, rational judgment on his abilities like all good talent evaluators do, based on his preseason performance against the vikings second stringers.

kidding, but lets at least wait to see him with some live bullets flying before we put him in the HOF or the practice squad.

 

[BigRedMO]

Black If I did not think you were kidding about anybody playing QB I woud suggest we have a lottery every game and pull a guy out of the stands. If you have great WRs it does not matter who is your QB. Bradshaw, Favre, Elway, Staubach were just run of the mill fast food restaurant workers in the right place at the right time. Afterall, Warner did stock shelves at a grocery store.

 

[This_Guy]

King played in a very "friendly" offense in terms of TD to INT ratio, the Bucs ran the ball and relied on their defense, they never asked King to make a lot of plays in fact they asked him not to try and make plays. For all my knocking of Jake even I admit that if Jake and King had switched teams then, Jake would have thrown less picks and King would have thrown more.

Huh? How do you play in the NFL in a friendly offense for young QBs? You are correct that they asked King to play overly safely, and that strategy got Tony Dungy fired.

The comparison to Plummer is out of place and not valid. Try this:

Seasons being (at least partial) starter/Seasons with more TDs than INTs

Jake Plummer: 7/2
Shaun King: 2/2

When you consider that the Bucs were a running team and not a throwing team, you realize that King was not exactly facing a bunch of nickel and dime coverages he was facing 8 man fronts, you're supposed to shred those defenses, he couldn't.

Actually, he faced nothing but blitzes, because the Bucs were so primiative on offense that they never threw unless it was 3rd and long. Ask a Buc fan how basic and predictable their offense was that year. It's easier for a QB to throw on 1st and 2nd than 3rd.

Shaun King posted those numbers with the least amount of pressure than any QB in the league. He put up decent average numbers under those circumstances. I think alot of coordinators and coaches know they get that much or more outta QBs with half of that time. Its not a knock, but I do think alot of coaches believe his numbers shouldve been far higher than they were.

??? That OL for the Bucs was horrendous. The starting tackles were Pete Pierson and Jorge Diaz, who were both out of the league one year later. And as for having WRs make you look good, Jacquez Green and Reidel Anthony were the 2nd and 3rd receivers.

Black If I did not think you were kidding about anybody playing QB I woud suggest we have a lottery every game and pull a guy out of the stands

I think you are taking to the extreme a little bit. I think he (correctly) believes that anyone that DG believes can run his "system" will be sufficient, and Green believes that either McCown and/or King will be a star in his system.

Allright, Allright, gentleman. Lets stop all the blah, blah, blah about how bad/good King is for now. It's pointless. Lets make our final, intelligent, rational judgment on his abilities like all good talent evaluators do, based on his preseason performance against the vikings second stringers.

You are absolutely correct. As I have said, I believe that many posters here will be wondering if King should be the starter by the end of preseason. And we'll all get to see for ourselves.

But I just don't understand all these ridiculous comments about "how bad" King is or how King's accomplishments don't count for some reason. As I've tried to get across, King acutally got off to a very hot start to his career and was a made a scapegoat in Tampa, and hasn't gotten an opportunity since. Cardinals fans will be excited to have him in the end, I'm willing to bet.

 

[Russ Smith]

Huh? How do you play in the NFL in a friendly offense for young QBs? You are correct that they asked King to play overly safely, and that strategy got Tony Dungy fired.

The comparison to Plummer is out of place and not valid. Try this:

Seasons being (at least partial) starter/Seasons with more TDs than INTs

Jake Plummer: 7/2
Shaun King: 2/2

Actually, he faced nothing but blitzes, because the Bucs were so primiative on offense that they never threw unless it was 3rd and long. Ask a Buc fan how basic and predictable their offense was that year. It's easier for a QB to throw on 1st and 2nd than 3rd.
QUOTE]


But those were run blitzes on early downs. And one of the reasons they blitzed so freely on passing downs is they had no fear of King beating them downfield.

I am always in favor of a guy who protects the ball and King clearly did, the problem is he did so at the cost of not making any big plays. Like most young QB's who can move, King got sacked quite a bit, 37 times. Maybe the OL wasn't very good as you say, but maybe it was also King holding the ball to avoid making mistakes?

King played a full year against teams daring the Bucs to throw the ball and didn't get to 300 yards passing in a single game, that's hard to do.
That year they lost to Philly 21-3 in the playoffs and that's why he lost his job. Philly shut down their run game and dared King to throw, he was 17-31
for 171 yards, no td's no picks and they decided that he didn't have the arm needed to be their QB if they wanted to improve their passing game.

King is a "safe" QB and I do like that, the problem is I have a fear that most of his action this year is going to be coming in after Josh gets his bell rung and we may not have the luxury of running a very "safe" offense. Green has never been a guy to run that sort of offense he likes to gamble and take shots downfield, I'm just not convinced King has the arm to do that he has only 7 completions over 40 yards in his NFL career, Blake had 6 last year and most of us think he had a bad year.

FYI so you know it's not a King vendetta, I have the same concern with Josh. He clearly has the arm strength but if you look he was a nickel and dime QB for the most part last year, very low YPA and if you look Quan's YPC dropped dramatically after Blake was benched. In Josh's case it's not the arm so I'm hoping it's just experience.

The one thing I will say in defense of King is the year after he was benched, Johnson had only 1 pass over 40 yards all year himself, that's basically what got Dungy fired the total absence of big plays. So maybe it wasn't just his fault? King isn't going to lose games with mistakes, but we have invested a lot of time and money into our WR's and OL and I'd hate to see us turn into a conservative team and I think that's what King does to an offense.