Something Porter said concerns me

[Mitch]

Catfish pretty much echoed my own frustration with the FO...there was no need for Joey Porter and especially no need for Kurt Warner to have to threaten going elsewhere in order for the Cardinals' FO to get their act together.

The proof is, had the Cardinals negotiated the deals they wound up signing from the start, they would have avoided the drama and the ensuing angst that did not have to incur.

Sometimes you HAVE to make statement signings. Penny pinching in those situations is counter-productive.

This is the essence of my rant last week...have the financial parameters in place...if the players aren't willing to work within the parameters then move on...but don't have the players in and then twiddle your thumbs and then offer a low-ball deal...it does not promote confidence in any way.

 

[Catfish]

Catfish pretty much echoed my own frustration with the FO...there was no need for Joey Porter and especially no need for Kurt Warner to have to threaten going elsewhere in order for the Cardinals' FO to get their act together.

The proof is, had the Cardinals negotiated the deals they wound up signing from the start, they would have avoided the drama and the ensuing angst that did not have to incur.

Sometimes you HAVE to make statement signings. Penny pinching in those situations is counter-productive.

This is the essence of my rant last week...have the financial parameters in place...if the players aren't willing to work within the parameters then move on...but don't have the players in and then twiddle your thumbs and then offer a low-ball deal...it does not promote confidence in any way.

Thanks for echoing my sentiments Mitch. The incident that sent Warner to San Francisco is one of those situations that caused me to say that I have seen this repeated from time to time here. Quite frankly, I could see where some players, might move on, and EVEN SIGN ELSEWHERE FOR A LITTLE LESS MONEY JUST TO MAKE THEIR POINT. Foote seems to possibly fit into that category, and I am thinking-----how much better off we would be right now, if we had Foote locked up at WILB, instead of letting him go to the Steelers. We would have a guy capable of making 90 or so tackles and still being able to cover some as a starter, and at least a journeyman in Lenon to back him up. That is a far cry from starting Lenon, and it might just be because Graves dragged his feet.

 

[Stout]

We have a lot of people who like to revise history on this thread, because this board explolded when KW went to San Fran. A lot of people blasted him for it and started the 'don't let the door...let's start the Leinart era' chants.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

as a fellow professional negotiator i don't necessarily agree with your assessment. your "whoever blinks first" concept works in sales, but it certainly doesn't help in repeat sales. and it really doesn't have a place in a negotiation where ongoing relationships are crucial, like a football team. in both types of relationships (institutional-repetitive sales and ongoing relationships) neither party should "win" because that means someone loses. and losers never want to be taken advantage of, thus they'll avoid working with the winner again. ideally both sides negotiate to a point of mutually agreed upon value, so they can both feel comfortable that they're not getting gouged. win-win.

Hmmm, and I wonder what profession you are in. LOL.

You are a credit to your profession.

 

[devilalum]

It's just bidness.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Catfish pretty much echoed my own frustration with the FO...there was no need for Joey Porter and especially no need for Kurt Warner to have to threaten going elsewhere in order for the Cardinals' FO to get their act together.

The proof is, had the Cardinals negotiated the deals they wound up signing from the start, they would have avoided the drama and the ensuing angst that did not have to incur.

Sometimes you HAVE to make statement signings. Penny pinching in those situations is counter-productive.

This is the essence of my rant last week...have the financial parameters in place...if the players aren't willing to work within the parameters then move on...but don't have the players in and then twiddle your thumbs and then offer a low-ball deal...it does not promote confidence in any way.

Right... If I knew what I know now... I'd be 10 times richer.

Negotiations are a dynamic process. If you put your final position on the table on day one, the counter is always higher because the expectation, the understanding - is that it is not your final position in the too-and-fro.

And... you have no idea whether parameters were laid out initially. The fact, that Porter came to an agreement while still in Washington indicates that the process was ongoing.

PS: I mildly suspect that there are some, not necessarily you... who offer advice on negotiation, who couldn't negotiate 5-bucks off a cheap rug in a Marakesh bazaar.

 

[BACH]

This is not only how the game is played in the NFL, but in an everyday job situation.

Porter knew that he was a good fit and the team needed a OLB. Why should he sell himself short?

 

[Catfish]

I am getting a little frustrated, but PLEASE bear with me. Most of you are still missing my point so I will post basically what Doug and Wolf, AND Porter said.

Doug: Why did you come to Arizona?

Porter: It was the best fit for me. This is where I wanted to play.

Doug: Why did you go to see the Redskins?

Porter: I didn't want to, this is where I wanted to be. I had to do something to get them to move faster.

THAT BOTHERS ME------

So if-----both men came here at the same time, because both played with Whiz before, and both wanted to play here, WHAT HAPPENED?

At first, I thought that the FO let them get out of town without giving them an offer. Several of you corrected me though, and assured me that almost certainly offers had been extended to their agents. Apparently, assuming from the conversation Porter had with Doug, he got tired after three days of inaction on his counter offfer, and made arrangements to see the Redskins, so that he could get them to move on his offer. Porter's counter offer MUST have been within the parameters that were acceptable to Graves, because he signed him the very next day after Porter visited the Skins.

So why, (if the counter offer was acceptable, did Graves fail to act on it)? Worse yet, assuming Foote's counter offer was within parameters too, how could we let him go to the Steelers after he left the valley on Sunday, AND HE SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH PITTSBURGH IMMEDIATELY ON MONDAY. THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS COULD HAPPEN.

From the words and actions of the two players, we can assume that they made offers, and that counter offers were made. Both left after three days, yet one signed elsewhere, immediately, and the other signed here, but only after he forced action on his offer by threatening to go elsewhere too. So please, I am not trying to be cute, or to pretend to know about negotiating. I have some serious, and (at least I think), legitimate questions about how Graves does business. Why do people, (WHO OBVIOUSLY WANT TO PLAY HERE) need to threaten to go elsewhere before our GM finally takes action on their offer?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Well the OP went way over my head apparently.

I've been trying to get rid of Graves for years but many here keep trying to convince me that he knows what he is doing and is one of the main cogs in our success. I have come to the point that I deal with him because Wiz seems to get along with him/work well with him so I am not going to continue to gripe.

But like many of the posters here, his methods are going to bite us in the ass sooner rather then later. I just hope its not with Fitz or Dockett. Thank god Mike B handled the Whisenhunt negotiations.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

By the way if you want to know why everyone is missing the context of your point, look no farther then the thread's title. Phrasing it differently probably would have saved you some stress

 

[Buckybird]

But like many of the posters here, his methods are going to bite us in the ass sooner rather then later.

I'm in line right behind you AF.
Nice guy, well spoken, average GM.

 

[Catfish]

By the way if you want to know why everyone is missing the context of your point, look no farther then the thread's title. Phrasing it differently probably would have saved you some stress

Thanks AF----of course you are correct about the title. I appreciate that and will try to keep that in mind for the future. Meanwhile, I have posted and amended response to this----does this cause concern for you too that we may be losing players because of Graves either failing to act within a reasonable time period, or trying to low ball someone who has already met your apparent parameters.

You said that this will cost us sooner or later. I am saying it has ALREADY COST US.

 

[bg7brd]

I am getting a little frustrated, but PLEASE bear with me. Most of you are still missing my point so I will post basically what Doug and Wolf, AND Porter said.

Doug: Why did you come to Arizona?

Porter: It was the best fit for me. This is where I wanted to play.

Doug: Why did you go to see the Redskins?

Porter: I didn't want to, this is where I wanted to be. I had to do something to get them to move faster.

THAT BOTHERS ME------

So if-----both men came here at the same time, because both played with Whiz before, and both wanted to play here, WHAT HAPPENED?

At first, I thought that the FO let them get out of town without giving them an offer. Several of you corrected me though, and assured me that almost certainly offers had been extended to their agents. Apparently, assuming from the conversation Porter had with Doug, he got tired after three days of inaction on his counter offfer, and made arrangements to see the Redskins, so that he could get them to move on his offer. Porter's counter offer MUST have been within the parameters that were acceptable to Graves, because he signed him the very next day after Porter visited the Skins.

So why, (if the counter offer was acceptable, did Graves fail to act on it)? Worse yet, assuming Foote's counter offer was within parameters too, how could we let him go to the Steelers after he left the valley on Sunday, AND HE SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH PITTSBURGH IMMEDIATELY ON MONDAY. THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS COULD HAPPEN.

From the words and actions of the two players, we can assume that they made offers, and that counter offers were made. Both left after three days, yet one signed elsewhere, immediately, and the other signed here, but only after he forced action on his offer by threatening to go elsewhere too. So please, I am not trying to be cute, or to pretend to know about negotiating. I have some serious, and (at least I think), legitimate questions about how Graves does business. Why do people, (WHO OBVIOUSLY WANT TO PLAY HERE) need to threaten to go elsewhere before our GM finally takes action on their offer?

I don't think we even made an offer to Foote.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

No issue with it.

+1

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Thanks AF----of course you are correct about the title. I appreciate that and will try to keep that in mind for the future. Meanwhile, I have posted and amended response to this----does this cause concern for you too that we may be losing players because of Graves either failing to act within a reasonable time period, or trying to low ball someone who has already met your apparent parameters.

You said that this will cost us sooner or later. I am saying it has ALREADY COST US.

Its unquantifiable to know what we have lost because of Graves negotiations tactics (i.e. let them leave and that WE will set the market) but I think this offseason, the only person we can say we lost because of this is Foote. And personally I don't think thats any big shakes. I think there is more to his foot then others hear want to think and even if not, he went to go be a backup (even if it was for more money) and thats not what I want on our team anyway. I think we ultimately get a young stud at ILB (either round 1 or 2) and he would have just stunted their development IMO. I am not sure Foote would have made that much of a difference IMO.

As much as I like our chances to win the division this year, I don't think we are winning the Superbowl so its key for certain rookies and certain young players (Toler, DRC, Leinart, Beanie, Levi) to take the next steps this year and form the core of what we are in 2011 and beyond. Foote wouldn't have been part of that equation IMO.

The thing is whether we like it or not, we aren't going to turn into the Redskins or Cowboys and bring in big name guys in FA. We haven't ever been like that, and bringing the Pitt model here by Wiz is only going to make that more pronounced.

The difference is now we draft well, so that we can build our team that way and ironically Graves method works BETTER now because we are actually a desiarable place to play. Previously we didn't pursue good FA's AND didn't draft well and we ended up with guys like Leeland McElroy and Ray Thompson starting.

I get the frustration but if you are hoping for multiple big ticket FA's to take you to the Super Bowl, your likely not as close as you think you are anyway.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Catfish is right on in his assessment. When has the waiting game ever paid off unless the Cards held all the leverage. Fitz, Warner, and Porter all got the deals they wanted from the get go. Rolle, Dansby, and Pace all saw the free agency window and were able to leave. The slow playing by Graves cost them because, in the end, it was reported that he made competitive,very similar offers to what Dansby and Rolle signed. Too bad it was too late. If he makes those offers earlier, they may still be with the Cards.

I agree with you--and I guarantee that is why we lost out on Foote as well--but I disagree with Dansby, since we did offer that contract basically last year and he fired his agent for accepting it...

Dansby never intended on staying a Card; he was happy to get two 9 million dollar seasons and getting the same contract elsewhere with another shiny new signing bonus. So Dansby walks away with what? 40 million million for three seasons (2 F-tag seasons with Cards, 1st season in Miami plus( plus another 13 guaranteed)?

 

[Catfish]

Its unquantifiable to know what we have lost because of Graves negotiations tactics (i.e. let them leave and that WE will set the market) but I think this offseason, the only person we can say we lost because of this is Foote. And personally I don't think thats any big shakes. I think there is more to his foot then others hear want to think and even if not, he went to go be a backup (even if it was for more money) and thats not what I want on our team anyway. I think we ultimately get a young stud at ILB (either round 1 or 2) and he would have just stunted their development IMO. I am not sure Foote would have made that much of a difference IMO.

As much as I like our chances to win the division this year, I don't think we are winning the Superbowl so its key for certain rookies and certain young players (Toler, DRC, Leinart, Beanie, Levi) to take the next steps this year and form the core of what we are in 2011 and beyond. Foote wouldn't have been part of that equation IMO.

The thing is whether we like it or not, we aren't going to turn into the Redskins or Cowboys and bring in big name guys in FA. We haven't ever been like that, and bringing the Pitt model here by Wiz is only going to make that more pronounced.

The difference is now we draft well, so that we can build our team that way and ironically Graves method works BETTER now because we are actually a desiarable place to play. Previously we didn't pursue good FA's AND didn't draft well and we ended up with guys like Leeland McElroy and Ray Thompson starting.

I get the frustration but if you are hoping for multiple big ticket FA's to take you to the Super Bowl, your likely not as close as you think you are anyway.

Thank you sincerely for your assistance on this. I might still argue about the worth of Foote compared to that of Lenon starting for us at WILB. Never entered my mind however about going back to SB. We are not ready for that, BUT possibly next year, depending on how we draft, and how we progress this next year. Thans again AF. You are apprecieted.

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

I have no doubt...

that the Cards will always be a cost-conscious team. ...And I really can't imagine our conditions being any better then they are now. Beautiful stadium, loyal fans, great coach & staff, and a solid scouting/drafting dept. We are an attractive place to play. While I believe we are light-years better in the contract dept. than we were, we will always try to get a bargain. It is what it is. We will lose some players and anger others but the positives will continue to out-weigh the negatives. GO CARDS!

 

[40yearfan]

Amazing the changes that have occured with this team in the last 3 years. It's also amazing that people still question the plan we are working under and want to blame the front office every time we bring a free agent in and then don't sign him or take our time getting the deal done.

I think the whole team from Mr. B down to the janitor at the Cards facility has done a magnificient job. Kudos to this organization for keeping a long time promise. They got their football stadium and we got a real NFL team. From my perspective, we got the better end of the deal.

 

[Catfish]

I agree with you--and I guarantee that is why we lost out on Foote as well--but I disagree with Dansby, since we did offer that contract basically last year and he fired his agent for accepting it...

Dansby never intended on staying a Card; he was happy to get two 9 million dollar seasons and getting the same contract elsewhere with another shiny new signing bonus. So Dansby walks away with what? 40 million million for three seasons (2 F-tag seasons with Cards, 1st season in Miami plus( plus another 13 guaranteed)?

Sorry Loyalty-----I had already forgotten about him firing his agent. We did no wrong on that one did we.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Well the OP went way over my head apparently.

I've been trying to get rid of Graves for years but many here keep trying to convince me that he knows what he is doing and is one of the main cogs in our success. I have come to the point that I deal with him because Wiz seems to get along with him/work well with him so I am not going to continue to gripe.

But like many of the posters here, his methods are going to bite us in the ass sooner rather then later. I just hope its not with Fitz or Dockett. Thank god Mike B handled the Whisenhunt negotiations.

It sure didn't take Mike B long to negotiate. I wonder what that situation would be like if he didn't handle the negotiations. Hell, it took Graves almost a year to get/sign his own contract.

 

[Buckybird]

It sure didn't take Mike B long to negotiate. I wonder what that situation would be like if he didn't handle the negotiations. Hell, it took Graves almost a year to get/sign his own contract.

It wouldnt have been a major loss if Graves had been shown the door.
Thank god for Michael stepping in years ago & moving this franchise forward because the old man would probably still be losing & running things like the great depression. I'm quite sure the contracts would be signed on rock tablets as each player etched out his X by his name. The sorry ass rookie contracts of Fitz, Rolle, Leinart & Brown are hopefullly a sign of the past. When Michael left life as a prosecutor to work for the Cards, thats when things changed.

 

[AZCardsWin]

You know Dan Snyder was going to offer him a big contract and the Cardinals couldnt risk losing out on a player that- IMO- fills there most glaring need in free agency. Im very excited about what Joey Porter brings to this team (puss rushing skills & attitude).

Great job by Graves & Co!

~Tim in NJ

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I agree with you--and I guarantee that is why we lost out on Foote as well--but I disagree with Dansby, since we did offer that contract basically last year and he fired his agent for accepting it...

Dansby never intended on staying a Card; he was happy to get two 9 million dollar seasons and getting the same contract elsewhere with another shiny new signing bonus. So Dansby walks away with what? 40 million million for three seasons (2 F-tag seasons with Cards, 1st season in Miami plus( plus another 13 guaranteed)?

Sorry Loyalty-----I had already forgotten about him firing his agent. We did no wrong on that one did we.

Oh yeah we did. They should have resigned him to the 17M guaranteed or so that he was looking for the first year we franchised him. We paid over 17M in 2 franchise seasons for what we could have had for 4 seasons...

 

[tnmike]

Catfish pretty much echoed my own frustration with the FO...there was no need for Joey Porter and especially no need for Kurt Warner to have to threaten going elsewhere in order for the Cardinals' FO to get their act together.

The proof is, had the Cardinals negotiated the deals they wound up signing from the start, they would have avoided the drama and the ensuing angst that did not have to incur.

Sometimes you HAVE to make statement signings. Penny pinching in those situations is counter-productive.

This is the essence of my rant last week...have the financial parameters in place...if the players aren't willing to work within the parameters then move on...but don't have the players in and then twiddle your thumbs and then offer a low-ball deal...it does not promote confidence in any way.

nobody knows what was offered but the people in the room and anyone that says they do is just plain wrong